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WHEN are we going to CUT medicare?

Mensch

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Does anyone deny that Medicare WILL bankrupt this country if we do not make drastic cuts?
 

VanceMack

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We will cut medicare probbably around 2016 when the healthcare costs just become overwhelming and they use that as a catalyst to kill off the medicare, medicade and private healthcare insurance and go straight universal healthcare.
 

rivrrat

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We will cut medicare probbably around 2016 when the healthcare costs just become overwhelming and they use that as a catalyst to kill off the medicare, medicade and private healthcare insurance and go straight universal healthcare.
I certainly hope I don't live to see the day this country willingly lowers itself into the ****hole of universal healthcare and govt control of our health.
 

Mensch

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I wonder if any left-leaning debaters will actually respond to this thread and actually deny that the current system will bankrupt the treasury if we do not make drastic cuts.
 

justabubba

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I wonder if any left-leaning debaters will actually respond to this thread and actually deny that the current system will bankrupt the treasury if we do not make drastic cuts.
ok, tell us where those drastic cuts should be made
 

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I think probably the only way we can really run medicare given the rising costs of health care is the allocate the money and do the best we can with it. It means some treatments will get cut, but unfortunately money is finite.
 

justabubba

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Why not today?
not when
tell us what drastic cuts should be made. specifically, who is not going to receive the medical services/medical payments they are now receiving
 

Mensch

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I think probably the only way we can really run medicare given the rising costs of health care is the allocate the money and do the best we can with it. It means some treatments will get cut, but unfortunately money is finite.
The rising cost of healthcare is the symptom of the problem. The problem is a major disparity in generational ratio of workers to retirees. In the next couple of decades, there will be three retirees for every one working individual. And if the Social Security trust fund has been long since busted by LBJ and every succeeding administration, and TODAY the taxes generated by FICA deductions goes straight to retirees on SS, how do liberals think we can simply tax our way out of the problem?
 

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Does anyone deny that Medicare WILL bankrupt this country if we do not make drastic cuts?
Sure lets cut it before the year is over, but after we give everyone in the country universal healthcare.
 

tacomancer

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The rising cost of healthcare is the symptom of the problem. The problem is a major disparity in generational ratio of workers to retirees. In the next couple of decades, there will be three retirees for every one working individual. And if the Social Security trust fund has been long since busted by LBJ and every succeeding administration, and TODAY the taxes generated by FICA deductions goes straight to retirees on SS, how do liberals think we can simply tax our way out of the problem?
Oh I agree. However, whether we tax people and run out of money or let old people pay for it themselves, were still going to run into a huge number of situations where people will die from preventable things due to the cost. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
 

justabubba

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The rising cost of healthcare is the symptom of the problem. The problem is a major disparity in generational ratio of workers to retirees. In the next couple of decades, there will be three retirees for every one working individual. And if the Social Security trust fund has been long since busted by LBJ and every succeeding administration, and TODAY the taxes generated by FICA deductions goes straight to retirees on SS, how do liberals think we can simply tax our way out of the problem?

but you failed to answer the question. whose ox gets gored under your plan. who will no longer be eligible to receive medical services or medical payment under your improvement
 

Mensch

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not when
tell us what drastic cuts should be made. specifically, who is not going to receive the medical services/medical payments they are now receiving
Sorry, I misread your original post.

I realize we can't make drastic cuts on everyone overnight. It has to be gradual. But generally, I support a universal cut in medicare and entitlement spending that will be gradual in nature but would be effective immediately. Since those in power are going in the exact opposite direction, finding reasons to support more entitlement programs, I don't see the cuts happening anytime soon. As a fellow poster said, I'm sure the elimination of medicare will happen automatically with the introduction of a UHC system.
 

Mensch

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but you failed to answer the question. whose ox gets gored under your plan. who will no longer be eligible to receive medical services or medical payment under your improvement
I don't believe anyone has a right to services that will ultimately be confiscated by a third party. These programs should not exist and people should not be dependent on the government for assistance. So, to satisfy your analogy, let's gore all the oxes and have a feast!
 

Mensch

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Oh I agree. However, whether we tax people and run out of money or let old people pay for it themselves, were still going to run into a huge number of situations where people will die from preventable things due to the cost. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
That's a very pesstimistic viewpoint, IMHO. Since the program nearly wastes as much as it spends, and has to tax double in order to pay the costs, think of how much money is being taken versus how much is actually spent on healthcare services. Since we are a society largely dependent on government, we rely on it for charitable purposes.

And when we can no longer afford the system entirely because we waited too long to make any cuts, then how many people will die suddenly because there is no system left to depend upon? A bankrupted system is far worse than a privatized one, in terms of higher costs, damaged quality, reduced quantity, and human fatalities.
 

VanceMack

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I certainly hope I don't live to see the day this country willingly lowers itself into the ****hole of universal healthcare and govt control of our health.
I hope Im wrong but I dont think that I am. As a society we have seen continued increases in social spending. Health care IS currently a major league pain in the ass...for the insured, uninsured, caregivers, hospitals, everyone. I think there are enough agenda driven people that embrace this and when you look at what the current Health Care plan is slated to to do...I think universal Health care is a matter of course. Its coming...just a question of when. Maybe as early as 2014, depending on if the dems maintain control over the house and senate in 2010. If they do, Obama will care them (because of the anchor votes) in 2012...he will swing for the fences as a lame duck president...nothing to lose. Voila.
 

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The rising cost of healthcare is the symptom of the problem. The problem is a major disparity in generational ratio of workers to retirees. In the next couple of decades, there will be three retirees for every one working individual. And if the Social Security trust fund has been long since busted by LBJ and every succeeding administration, and TODAY the taxes generated by FICA deductions goes straight to retirees on SS, how do liberals think we can simply tax our way out of the problem?
Why do conservatives think this is what liberals think?
 

Mensch

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Why do conservatives think this is what liberals think?
I don't know. I'm not a conservative. But liberals created the mess, and they want to keep it as is. This is not true?
 

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I am a liberal person, though I do not identify myself as liberal. I recognize there is a lot of waste in government. A lot of mis-management, and a lot of places where we could probably afford to make some cuts without huge reprocussions. A previous post asked you, what exactly would you like to cut? That would be a better topic for debate than "why are liberals so stupid always wanted to tax us to take care of these old worthless retirees?"

While I accept the government can afford some cut-backs, there is a place for entitlement programs. Unless we want to return to survival of the fittest. Then if you cannot carve out a life for yourself based on your skills, you will probably spend some time as a criminal, or die in the streets. Because I myself am a reasonably intelligent and semi-successful individual; if we implemented this policy, allowing all of the uneducated, uneducatable, elderly, and disabled to die off based on not being able to effectively fend for yourself, it wouldn't really affect me much. But, you can probably guess the rest of a civil society would never allow for such a thing. It is a grossly inappropriate way to look at humanity. The only way to hold accept that position as something that is ok to do, is to have very little value placed on each individual human.
 

Deuce

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I don't know. I'm not a conservative. But liberals created the mess, and they want to keep it as is. This is not true?
No. It's not true.
 

rathi

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The simplest way to cut it would be to refuse claims for end-of-life care for terminal patients. Spending tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for a few more weeks of life is simply not an efficient use of taxpayer money. However, such a move is politically impossible. The public is addicted to medicare, and both parties wouldn't dare touch it for fear of political backlash. While you can stem the tide with small things, like reducing medicare fraud, I doubt the public has the will to actually make real reforms.
 

Naburus

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The simplest way to cut it would be to refuse claims for end-of-life care for terminal patients. Spending tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for a few more weeks of life is simply not an efficient use of taxpayer money. However, such a move is politically impossible. The public is addicted to medicare, and both parties wouldn't dare touch it for fear of political backlash. While you can stem the tide with small things, like reducing medicare fraud, I doubt the public has the will to actually make real reforms.
It would be nice if the public did have some backbone to make real reforms, but we always want to appease everyone and dont want anyone left out. It's very annoying at times. People could avoid political backlash if they would all accept something needs to be done, and vote on it together. Then, they're all to fault, and they don't have anything to worry about, aside from the new guy when the next elections roll around. At least all the incumbents would be in it together...
 

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The bottom line of all the fuss over Medicare is that seniors would have no access to medical care without it. No one is going to want to insure the most expensive demographic, if they did they would have so many loopholes that coverage would be meaningless.

Here's what we really should do with Medicare:

Currently, you have to be 65 or older to buy into it. Gradually lower the age until everyone has that option.

Currently, Medicare pays 80% of costs. Change that to 0% up to 10% of the patient's income, then 100% after that. That way, everyone would have catastrophic insurance, but everyone would have an incentive to shop around and to not have unnecessary procedures.

Pay for it by allowing employers, who currently bear the brunt of the costs, to opt out of private care and pay into Medicare instead.

Market forces would lower the cost of medical care, yet no one would have to go without coverage. Everyone would have access to medical care, everyone would pay, yet no one would go bankrupt as a result of a health crises. It would no longer be necessary to remain employed in order to have access to health care, making it much easier to start a small business. Employers would pay less, making businesses more competitive.

Of course, all of that is terribly socialistic and communistic and all, so it won't happen. Not to mention that the health insurance industry would lose out, and so no longer be paying brib... I mean campaign contributions to their favorite politicians, so no, politically it will never happen.

Not until the current system gets so expensive that the middle class can no longer afford it.
 

justabubba

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I don't believe anyone has a right to services that will ultimately be confiscated by a third party. These programs should not exist and people should not be dependent on the government for assistance. So, to satisfy your analogy, let's gore all the oxes and have a feast!
in the span of four (4) minutes you have gone from:
I realize we can't make drastic cuts on everyone overnight. It has to be gradual.
to:
These programs should not exist and people should not be dependent on the government for assistance.
besides killing your credibility it now causes your thread title to be ripe for a change [replace "CUT" with "END"]

we can only conclude you would prefer that those whose lives are dependent on medicare now die instead without access to medical care

how much political support do your realistically anticipate that position is going to garner? but that four minute conversion of philosophy does prove you are a capital "L" libertarian who has absolutely no grasp of political reality
 

tacomancer

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That's a very pesstimistic viewpoint, IMHO. Since the program nearly wastes as much as it spends, and has to tax double in order to pay the costs, think of how much money is being taken versus how much is actually spent on healthcare services. Since we are a society largely dependent on government, we rely on it for charitable purposes.

And when we can no longer afford the system entirely because we waited too long to make any cuts, then how many people will die suddenly because there is no system left to depend upon? A bankrupted system is far worse than a privatized one, in terms of higher costs, damaged quality, reduced quantity, and human fatalities.
Yeah, its pessimistic, but I think its realistic. I think that we are going to be looking at a lower life span in general if we do anything but fully socialize health care. And frankly, socialized healthcare will be like democracy. It sucks, but less than anything else tried.
 
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