whats your solution for poverty

[KevinKohler]

Thanks for clarifying the issue. Without putting too fine a point on it, I believe both scenarios would benefit the economy the same. $400,000 is $400,000.

You really think that? I don't. I think 40 families are going to consume a lot more, than 1 one family, even if that one family leans to excess. Just how many cars can that one family own? Likely the same number as the other families...only, instead of Chevies, they are buying Mercedes. Just how many clothes can that one family own? How much food can they possibly consume?

The only way you could argue this, is by looking at the odds of the one 400K family investing that money, instead of spending it. Which is likely what they would do. And you COULD argue that this helps our economy, via helping business growth. But in the long run, it's not helping business growth AS MUCH as increased consumption does. We've been living in a sort of trickle up economic system for years, now, and you need only look at where we are today to see how it's been working out for us. A consumer driven marketplace needs more consumers, not investors.

 

[cannuck]

Thanks for clarifying the issue. Without putting too fine a point on it, I believe both scenarios would benefit the economy the same. $400,000 is $400,000.

depends. First of all, the families with $10k to burn are far more likely to buy something consumable or a necessity. That could go either way. If it is US produced, the net benefit to the economy could be absolute. If it came from China you might measure the economic activity, but the net benefit goes somewhere else. The family with $400k to burn have similar qualifications as to outcome. If they bought one shiny new Diamond Da40, again the activity shows here, but the net benefit goes offshore. If they park all of the cash in their favourite Casino Capitalist institution or just use it to flip existing real estate - again, economists will measure the activity and claim such a fantastic benefit but in fact, it is likely that not one red cent of wealth would be created as all of the profits would be purely speculative. Wealth re-distribution is no actual benefit to the economy. Similarly, if they bought 100% Mom and apple pie, the economy could do well

 

[ocean515]

You really think that? I don't. I think 40 families are going to consume a lot more, than 1 one family, even if that one family leans to excess. Just how many cars can that one family own? Likely the same number as the other families...only, instead of Chevies, they are buying Mercedes. Just how many clothes can that one family own? How much food can they possibly consume?

The only way you could argue this, is by looking at the odds of the one 400K family investing that money, instead of spending it. Which is likely what they would do. And you COULD argue that this helps our economy, via helping business growth. But in the long run, it's not helping business growth AS MUCH as increased consumption does. We've been living in a sort of trickle up economic system for years, now, and you need only look at where we are today to see how it's been working out for us. A consumer driven marketplace needs more consumers, not investors.

Everything consumed starts with the same basic ingredients. What gets produced depends on what the finished product sells for.

Consider a Cadillac. Without Cadillacs and other expensive vehicles to sell, GM goes out of business. They generate very little profit with a Chevy Cruz. Playing along, the $400k family eats out for dinner at a high end restaurant that has 4 cooks making $60k each, and a wait staff of over a dozen. The $10k family eats at McDonalds's where most of the staff of 8 make minimum wage. The $400k family buys the latest tech gizmo for $5k, helping to establish a market that eventually results in the $10k family being able to purchase a similar piece of tech for $100.

I think you see where I'm going.

Now, do I think 40 families shouldn't have $10k, so that one family should have $400k? Of course not. The belief that this is what conservatives want is what eliminates any credibility of those who push it.

 

[KevinKohler]

Everything consumed starts with the same basic ingredients. What gets produced depends on what the finished product sells for.

Consider a Cadillac. Without Cadillacs and other expensive vehicles to sell, GM goes out of business. They generate very little profit with a Chevy Cruz. Playing along, the $400k family eats out for dinner at a high end restaurant that has 4 cooks making $60k each, and a wait staff of over a dozen. The $10k family eats at McDonalds's where most of the staff of 8 make minimum wage. The $400k family buys the latest tech gizmo for $5k, helping to establish a market that eventually results in the $10k family being able to purchase a similar piece of tech for $100.

I think you see where I'm going.

Now, do I think 40 families shouldn't have $10k, so that one family should have $400k? Of course not. The belief that this is what conservatives want is what eliminates any credibility of those who push it.

I don't think that's what conservatives want, I think it's just what we're getting as a result. Unintended consequences.

Yes, that 400K family might eat out at a nice place...but those 40 families are buying groceries, which directly assists the ONE business in this country that exports on a consistent basis. And chevy makes plently of money on a cruz, else they would not make it. Believe it or not, it's their higher line products, like the corvette, that they make the least money on, and in some cases, LOSE money on. It's the cheaper, bread and butter cars, that make them their daily bacon.

 

[ocean515]

depends. First of all, the families with $10k to burn are far more likely to buy something consumable or a necessity. That could go either way. If it is US produced, the net benefit to the economy could be absolute. If it came from China you might measure the economic activity, but the net benefit goes somewhere else. The family with $400k to burn have similar qualifications as to outcome. If they bought one shiny new Diamond Da40, again the activity shows here, but the net benefit goes offshore. If they park all of the cash in their favourite Casino Capitalist institution or just use it to flip existing real estate - again, economists will measure the activity and claim such a fantastic benefit but in fact, it is likely that not one red cent of wealth would be created as all of the profits would be purely speculative. Wealth re-distribution is no actual benefit to the economy. Similarly, if they bought 100% Mom and apple pie, the economy could do well

So the question becomes buying habits?

As a whole, I don't think consumers pay much attention to where a product is made. Although, I do sense a change in that sentiment. The main issue is price. In this regard, the consumer is often setting the country of origin based on the price they are willing to pay. Either US based manufacturers can match those levels profitably, or they have to outsource in order to maintain market share.

 

[Anti-Party]

Why do imply factory workers are low skilled? Have you ever worked in a production factory?

I understand this is just a troll post but I'll respond anyway. Yes I have. When I was young I worked in a low skill assembly factory. I've also worked in a metal casting factory (high skill)

Most factory jobs that are outsourced are low skill. I never stated "all factory jobs are low skill work".........:shock:

 

[ocean515]

I don't think that's what conservatives want, I think it's just what we're getting as a result. Unintended consequences.

Yes, that 400K family might eat out at a nice place...but those 40 families are buying groceries, which directly assists the ONE business in this country that exports on a consistent basis. And chevy makes plently of money on a cruz, else they would not make it. Believe it or not, it's their higher line products, like the corvette, that they make the least money on, and in some cases, LOSE money on. It's the cheaper, bread and butter cars, that make them their daily bacon.

Yet, the $400k family buys their groceries from a high end grocer who stocks only locally grown organic goods, and then delivers them. (We could do this all day...)

As to the cars, I'm sorry, but you are wrong about the profits.

For example:

Fritz Henderson:
Corvette remains a force within our product lineup. It is a superb high performance car, the equal or better car relative to cars that sell for 3x the price. The corvette pays the rent in terms of profitability and cash flow and is one of our strongest (if not our strongest) nameplates in the entire GM lineup. We intend to keep this car fresh and in a segment leading position. I also own one and love it.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Ignoring reality is making a post suggesting that all poor people can get rich,

No that would be ignoring what I posted. I did not say all poor people can get rich. I said that is how people who get rich do it.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

I understand this is just a troll post but I'll respond anyway. Yes I have. When I was young I worked in a low skill assembly factory. I've also worked in a metal casting factory (high skill)

Most factory jobs that are outsourced are low skill. I never stated "all factory jobs are low skill work".........:shock:

Most production factory jobs require skills. You can't just outsource the low skilled jobs at a factory. You implied that factory jobs were low skilled.

 

[ReformCollege]

Bull...the rich gained by leaps and bounds after Reagan and the Bushes gave them massive tax cuts and borrowed from foreign banks to cover the shortfall. The Republican party has effectively borrowed trillions from foreign banks and funneled it into the pockets of the richest Americans by reducing taxes and never cutting spending a dime. Look at this chart and note how the Clinton years had begun to bring them back in line but that as soon as George Bush cut their taxes again in 2001 and 2003 they resumed their upward climb:

massive tax cuts = them keeping their own money

 

[ReformCollege]

That we only have 1% of the population that we consider to be "rich" is not really the issue he's trying to address. It's the growing distance between that 1%, and the rest of us, that is the problem.

And for the record, many of this countries wealthy WERE/ARE, in a randabout fashion, born into the wealth they achieve. The son of an upper middle class, or even semi-wealthy person, is far, far, far, far, far, far more likely to become wealthy, or rich, within their lifetime, than the son of a middle class, or lower class person. That's simple statistics.

80% of all millionaires are self made.

Yes, there is a sliding scale for those who are more likely to become the 1%.
BUT, everyone has relatively equal odds to become better off then they are now.

 

[Fisher]

Since when is it my responsibility to solve the poverty of other people? Their problem and they need to deal with it or find a solution of their own.

 

[cannuck]

So the question becomes buying habits?

As a whole, I don't think consumers pay much attention to where a product is made. Although, I do sense a change in that sentiment. The main issue is price. In this regard, the consumer is often setting the country of origin based on the price they are willing to pay. Either US based manufacturers can match those levels profitably, or they have to outsource in order to maintain market share.

The line gets very blurry today because of the cosmopolitan nature of component part suppliers, but the issue of price is not necessarily at the top of the list - otherwise, nobody would ever buy anything but the cheapest piece of crap they could find. As a sidenote, when I am asked about the difference between Americans and Europeans when I travel, I explain it that an American will come home from WalMart and brag that he got 10 times as many widgets for his dollar than somewhere else, whereas a Euro will brag that he may have paid 10x as much, but he got the very best he could find. Fortunately, this is not an absolute, nor is the leading assumption. But there IS some truth to our lack of awareness of value - just as we have an ever greater lack of awareness of what is actually beneficial to the economy vs. what is merely measured as economic activity. This especially applies to "investment". We can not seem to learn the difference between putting capital to work rather than simply gambling on speculative gain.

To answer the question of the thread as to how to deal with poverty IMHO is to put capital to work instead playing specultive games in a truly false economy. If we were having this discussion in the '30s, EVERYONE would completely understand. Since we are having it now, our vision of reality is clouded by massive layers of government BS, intervention and obfuscation that can do nothing but delay and increase the ultimate damage from yet another "correction".

So, there you have it. A genuine capitalist pig calling for the end of Wall Street to save Main Street.

 

[ocean515]

The line gets very blurry today because of the cosmopolitan nature of component part suppliers, but the issue of price is not necessarily at the top of the list - otherwise, nobody would ever buy anything but the cheapest piece of crap they could find. As a sidenote, when I am asked about the difference between Americans and Europeans when I travel, I explain it that an American will come home from WalMart and brag that he got 10 times as many widgets for his dollar than somewhere else, whereas a Euro will brag that he may have paid 10x as much, but he got the very best he could find. Fortunately, this is not an absolute, nor is the leading assumption. But there IS some truth to our lack of awareness of value - just as we have an ever greater lack of awareness of what is actually beneficial to the economy vs. what is merely measured as economic activity. This especially applies to "investment". We can not seem to learn the difference between putting capital to work rather than simply gambling on speculative gain.

To answer the question of the thread as to how to deal with poverty IMHO is to put capital to work instead playing specultive games in a truly false economy. If we were having this discussion in the '30s, EVERYONE would completely understand. Since we are having it now, our vision of reality is clouded by massive layers of government BS, intervention and obfuscation that can do nothing but delay and increase the ultimate damage from yet another "correction".

So, there you have it. A genuine capitalist pig calling for the end of Wall Street to save Main Street.

Wall Street has always been a curious "entity" to me. Necessary to help raise capital for business, and a big crap shoot for the legions of people who play the market.

I'm not one to embrace income generation by shuffling paper. That's never been how I could work. I want a pallet of sheet metal, or a gaylord of Polystyrene, that I can turn into a piece of equipment, or a bowl to eat from. The problem, as you pointed out, is that we have in many ways rewarded the paper pushers, and penalized the fabricators. That must change.

 

[polgara]

Alot of immigrants come with a free credit slate and some direction from family members or organizations that help them invest in creating a small business. Many more immigrants come here, coinhabit small apartments or homes working for less than minimum wage. In the West there are businesses created because of the massive amount of them. There are legitimate businesses for DMV services and insurance companies that insure and plate cars for illigegal immigrants when in Nevada you cant insure a car without a license and cant plate a car without insurance. Daycare services/nannies that work for very little money but make enough out of the 13-20 kids they watch. I personally know several Mexicans that make fake Mexican IDs, steal socials from databases for employment purposes, and for an extra $1000 you get a handful of AT numbers to file taxes on. The majority of their incomes go to their relatives outside of US to build homes with all the bells and whistles and move back home. I know several of these people gleaning welfare benefits and avoiding arrest in their good name and have several other names to ruin. Whos to say these "hard working" immigrants didnt get their business loan in Jose Remueldo's name and screw over their credit in Jose Interiano's name? Maybe they took out a credit card and some more loans for business expenses in name 1 and name 2 isnt touched? Yes alot of them run legitimate businesses and made better life for themselves. Compared to the average poor American with no communtiy behind them, no minority hand-ups and no fakr names or other country to fall back on, not to mention Spanish, Indian, and most Asian cultures put an emphasis on family ties. The average American child can either be kicked out or go to school at 18. How many grandmothers live with their children and grandchildren all contributing income to that household? They can trust their mothers and grandmothers to put all of their savings into one account for 1-2 generations and by the third generation or 4th the kids have their American Dream. Not to mention their living conditions are cramped, bug infested, and a collective effort when buying cars one by one,, big TVs, Computers etc.... Now this is just based on my husbands family and many friends we have from El Salvador, Mexico, and Guatemala, but if we find it with nearly %100 of the friends or aquantances we havr made over the years (neighbors, coworkers, people weve had our kids play together at the playground, friends of friends etc... how many more immigrants make it here moreso because of a self-made socialistic or communal effort?

Ask the next successful immigrant business owner you encounter how vital their family was to their success and Im sure they will spout off for 20 minutes or more. Ask the average working poor American how their parents are helping or hace tried to help them rise above poverty and prepare for sob stories of schizophrenic moms, rapist uncles, using men for income, or the "my parents kicked me out at 16 and could give a **** now". Stories of drugs, homelessness, beatings,foster care, et al. Supportive nurturing family life vs abusive and neglectful family life, support in adulthood vs total abandoment or criticism, and availability of resources for advancement vs availability of welfare and government programs...

Good afternoon, Chelsea.

We USED to be the way you describe the immigrant families of today, with the possible exception of stooping to illegal activities. That's how most people during the Great Depression managed to survive those dark times, and it wasn't easy to do. What has happened to us? Have we become so accustomed to having everything we want when we want it, by whatever means we can get it? Has cheating to beat the system become a way of life, and now accepted as normal? :naughty: If so, what are things going to look like five years from now? Scary....

 

[Chelsea]

Good afternoon, Chelsea.

We USED to be the way you describe the immigrant families of today, with the possible exception of stooping to illegal activities. That's how most people during the Great Depression managed to survive those dark times, and it wasn't easy to do. What has happened to us? Have we become so accustomed to having everything we want when we want it, by whatever means we can get it? Has cheating to beat the system become a way of life, and now accepted as normal? :naughty: If so, what are things going to look like five years from now? Scary....

I don't hold with the view that Americans are more materialistic and seek instant gratification anymore than the generations before us. I mean just look at the 60s and 70s free love and drug craze. My generation of millenials have been left to fend for ourselves without direction. We have basically learned to survive by any means necessary. Most of my friends dont own Ipads, Iphones, gaming systems, or have Cable. We barely scrape together rent. There is a greater emphasis on building the ideal family but it comes with great difficulty. We are products of divorces and absentee parents. We havent had the guide or influence of a functional relationship to learn from and we make kistakes based on flippant rmotions, better finance options, and housing/food security. Having the guarentee of food and shelter on incomes of $12,000-$30,000 a year with drpendants takes precedence. I mean if government benefits were the only way to keep off the streets and guarentee food everyday for your young children despite 6-10 years of continual effort to rise above watching your kids go hungry and moving 6-10 times a year would you honestly tell the government about that $2000 your family gave you, or the $500 extra a month you earn online that paid your utilities or car insurance etc? If it meant the difference between homelessness or losing your job because they would slash your benefits not only that month but for 3-6 months even for one time gifts or the difference between having utilities and a way to and from work? Most people wouldnt! Especially with no family to fall back on. If ny generation fails at something we dont have a family to run to in times of crisis. You're on the streets in sub-zero or scortching 110-130+ degree weather with a baby or two? Good luck. You need $100 to hold you over for 2 weeks until payday when you could pay it back, I hope you have the credit gor a loe interest payday loan. Daycare is closed or your baby is sick and cant go, hope your friends have time for you. No one can live and raise kids independently like that! Everyone has a time when they need just a bit of help but for us thats not family. Its not even friends most of the time, but the government.

 

[KevinKohler]

No that would be ignoring what I posted. I did not say all poor people can get rich. I said that is how people who get rich do it.

So then, you acknowledge that not everyone who adheres to your tenants of wealth accumulation...are going to succeed?

 

[Campbell]

I don't disagree. But, those people are not the majority. The majority are people who just want to live comfortably, enjoy their off-time, and be left alone. Those who have the drive of a Henry Ford are indeed necessary, but are a minority of the overall population.

At the other end of the spectrum, there are also those who have no desire to even live comfortably.

Yeah....about the same odds as a straight flush being beaten by a higher straight flush. Henry Ford doesn't fit any of the Republican wish lists. That's called a dream and in a billion tries it ain't gonna happen.

 

[polgara]

I don't hold with the view that Americans are more materialistic and seek instant gratification anymore than the generations before us. I mean just look at the 60s and 70s free love and drug craze. My generation of millenials have been left to fend for ourselves without direction. We have basically learned to survive by any means necessary. Most of my friends dont own Ipads, Iphones, gaming systems, or have Cable. We barely scrape together rent. There is a greater emphasis on building the ideal family but it comes with great difficulty. We are products of divorces and absentee parents. We havent had the guide or influence of a functional relationship to learn from and we make kistakes based on flippant rmotions, better finance options, and housing/food security. Having the guarentee of food and shelter on incomes of $12,000-$30,000 a year with drpendants takes precedence. I mean if government benefits were the only way to keep off the streets and guarentee food everyday for your young children despite 6-10 years of continual effort to rise above watching your kids go hungry and moving 6-10 times a year would you honestly tell the government about that $2000 your family gave you, or the $500 extra a month you earn online that paid your utilities or car insurance etc? If it meant the difference between homelessness or losing your job because they would slash your benefits not only that month but for 3-6 months even for one time gifts or the difference between having utilities and a way to and from work? Most people wouldnt! Especially with no family to fall back on. If ny generation fails at something we dont have a family to run to in times of crisis. You're on the streets in sub-zero or scortching 110-130+ degree weather with a baby or two? Good luck. You need $100 to hold you over for 2 weeks until payday when you could pay it back, I hope you have the credit gor a loe interest payday loan. Daycare is closed or your baby is sick and cant go, hope your friends have time for you. No one can live and raise kids independently like that! Everyone has a time when they need just a bit of help but for us thats not family. Its not even friends most of the time, but the government.

Then you agree it's a generational thing? By that I mean WHY so many "latchkey" kids left to fend for themselves, as an example? Why aren't families there for each other? They used to be....what happened?

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

So then, you acknowledge that not everyone who adheres to your tenants of wealth accumulation...are going to succeed?

Of course they won't, there is no guarantee with life. But will say if you don't adhere to any of them then you better have a rich Uncle if you want to be rich.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Yeah....about the same odds as a straight flush being beaten by a higher straight flush. Henry Ford doesn't fit any of the Republican wish lists. That's called a dream and in a billion tries it ain't gonna happen.

The odds of a straight flush being beaten by a higher straight flush are 100%.

 

[Chelsea]

Then you agree it's a generational thing? By that I mean WHY so many "latchkey" kids left to fend for themselves, as an example? Why aren't families there for each other? They used to be....what happened?

If I knew that my internal conflict would be resolved . What causes a loving family to begin to beat their 8 year old and tear down her self esteem? A mother to care less when her daughters are raped by her brother and eventually abandoning them in foster care? I know its an inconceivable serires of events even though Ive lived it! But nothing could shock me after the kids I met in foster care. Preachers daughters groomed for dads sex parties beaten for not attending church, girls used as drig mules across states being shot by family members. And they arent the worst cases by far. The girl whose mom used her as a birnt offering to her Satani God at age 6 was probably the worst Ive seen. Many grew up caring for siblings fully because mom and dad demanded it. We never had childhoods so if people marvel at this generation raising kids with a lack of discipline, this is a reason why. I refuse to dpank my kids. I will never lay a hand on them nor anyone else. I dont drink except a beer with my husband over dinner. My kids and I always have a nightlight... my kids are overprotected with reason. I think the next generation will be more secure with family.

 

[polgara]

If I knew that my internal conflict would be resolved . What causes a loving family to begin to beat their 8 year old and tear down her self esteem? A mother to care less when her daughters are raped by her brother and eventually abandoning them in foster care? I know its an inconceivable serires of events even though Ive lived it! But nothing could shock me after the kids I met in foster care. Preachers daughters groomed for dads sex parties beaten for not attending church, girls used as drig mules across states being shot by family members. And they arent the worst cases by far. The girl whose mom used her as a birnt offering to her Satani God at age 6 was probably the worst Ive seen. Many grew up caring for siblings fully because mom and dad demanded it. We never had childhoods so if people marvel at this generation raising kids with a lack of discipline, this is a reason why. I refuse to dpank my kids. I will never lay a hand on them nor anyone else. I dont drink except a beer with my husband over dinner. My kids and I always have a nightlight... my kids are overprotected with reason. I think the next generation will be more secure with family.

Chelsea, for everyone's sake, let that be truel

 

[cannuck]

I don't hold with the view that Americans are more materialistic and seek instant gratification anymore than the generations before us. I mean just look at the 60s and 70s free love and drug craze. My generation of millenials have been left to fend for ourselves without direction. We have basically learned to survive by any means necessary. Most of my friends dont own Ipads, Iphones, gaming systems, or have Cable. We barely scrape together rent. There is a greater emphasis on building the ideal family but it comes with great difficulty. We are products of divorces and absentee parents. We havent had the guide or influence of a functional relationship to learn from and we make kistakes based on flippant rmotions, better finance options, and housing/food security. Having the guarentee of food and shelter on incomes of $12,000-$30,000 a year with drpendants takes precedence. I mean if government benefits were the only way to keep off the streets and guarentee food everyday for your young children despite 6-10 years of continual effort to rise above watching your kids go hungry and moving 6-10 times a year would you honestly tell the government about that $2000 your family gave you, or the $500 extra a month you earn online that paid your utilities or car insurance etc? If it meant the difference between homelessness or losing your job because they would slash your benefits not only that month but for 3-6 months even for one time gifts or the difference between having utilities and a way to and from work? Most people wouldnt! Especially with no family to fall back on. If ny generation fails at something we dont have a family to run to in times of crisis. You're on the streets in sub-zero or scortching 110-130+ degree weather with a baby or two? Good luck. You need $100 to hold you over for 2 weeks until payday when you could pay it back, I hope you have the credit gor a loe interest payday loan. Daycare is closed or your baby is sick and cant go, hope your friends have time for you. No one can live and raise kids independently like that! Everyone has a time when they need just a bit of help but for us thats not family. Its not even friends most of the time, but the government.

You said a lot in that post, and I don't know if I can do it justice with a complete reply.

You are so right that the failure of family is one of the biggest problems we face today. IMHO, the writing was on the wall when the post war economy realized that most households now had TWO potential incomes. I can remember well how this works since I was a wee tyke in the '50s, and my Mother always had a job. The way they got ahead was simple: we lived with her parents while Mom & Dad went to work to earn a nest egg while Granny and Gramps took care of the little bundle of joy. Similarly, my wife's family was fairly large, so her Mother also worked - and she (as the eldest) did most of the child care and housework duties. I am just a techno-freak and business guy, so I didn't really give much thought to how it would work, but imagine my horror when she announced to me that when we had kids, she would walk away from her career that took over a decade of full and part time education to establish? Well, 30 years later, watching our kids grow up with a FULL TIME parent + 1/2 and usually some extended family around, we can really see the difference between their group of friends (almost all of whom had "super-moms" as well) and those from latch-key or broken families.

I can also tell you that another thing lost with family values of the past is the level of personal responsibility that was ingrained in kids - and STILL can be. When you talk about being in the street with a couple of kids - the concept was that you didn't HAVE kids until and unless you could afford to raise them. The other almost lost idea was that marriage was a PERMANENT COMITTMENT kind of deal, not some on-again-off-again thing - and that it was an integral part of the family it took to have and raise children. I realize you are not to blame as you are a product of that environment - but it is within your purvey to change that heritage before passing it along to your progeny.

The other comment is about "working the sytem". Maybe you think that is just fine, but again, I can tell you from first hand experience that there are still a few people left who would not only avoid defrauding the government of money, but who would not accept government money under ANY circumstances - partly because of what it would teach THEIR children what was right and wrong.

What I think you realize, or at least I hope you do, is that an extended and stable family is not just there to lend you a few bucks until payday - it is there so you learn how to live responsibly and never even THINK about doing so. While we may be economically and technically more advanced than most Asian nations it is the strength of family that allows them to succeed easily in a world that seems to baffle our best efforts today.

 

[cpwill]

I see I'm dealing with a Fox News fan.

If you will look on the left side of your screen, you will notice that I live in Japan. I don't even have television, much less cable.

Believe your own facts and ignore what actually happened.

which is a cute thing to say as you refuse to actually answer the points I brought up

Two things are obvious.....the rich have gained a lion's share of the wealth while massive debts have accumulated and the middle class has all but disappeared. What do you have to say about that?

All income quintiles have seen increases in their incomes - but as our economy became one able to better leverage knowledge work, knowledge works' compensation grew faster. The middle class has not "all but disappeared", the middle 80% remain the middle 80%. What has happened is that many members of the lower middle class have begun to make the same poor decisions as our poorer classes, with the result that we are seeing a bifurcation of the middle class. The notion implicit in your description that the raw amount of wealth is fixed and that as one person gains another therefore loses is..... I struggle with adjectives that would not run afoul of the new rules. Let us settle on "not correct".