• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

whats your solution for poverty

most of my siblings are poor, some due to learning difficulties, some due to attitude, some have both issues....
If they are trying, we help them. But if they are just sitting around, the help goes down every month until they are willing to work for their welfare.
Those that can't help themselves, fine....those that won't, can go hungry.
 
Hey Polgara.....I think a lot of it has to do with instant gratification and moral relativism, and I don't think it really started to get bad in America until the late 60's.


Then you agree it's a generational thing? By that I mean WHY so many "latchkey" kids left to fend for themselves, as an example? Why aren't families there for each other? They used to be....what happened?
 
I don't hold with the view that Americans are more materialistic and seek instant gratification anymore than the generations before us. I mean just look at the 60s and 70s free love and drug craze. My generation of millenials have been left to fend for ourselves without direction. We have basically learned to survive by any means necessary. Most of my friends dont own Ipads, Iphones, gaming systems, or have Cable. We barely scrape together rent. There is a greater emphasis on building the ideal family but it comes with great difficulty. We are products of divorces and absentee parents. We havent had the guide or influence of a functional relationship to learn from and we make kistakes based on flippant rmotions, better finance options, and housing/food security. Having the guarentee of food and shelter on incomes of $12,000-$30,000 a year with drpendants takes precedence. I mean if government benefits were the only way to keep off the streets and guarentee food everyday for your young children despite 6-10 years of continual effort to rise above watching your kids go hungry and moving 6-10 times a year would you honestly tell the government about that $2000 your family gave you, or the $500 extra a month you earn online that paid your utilities or car insurance etc? If it meant the difference between homelessness or losing your job because they would slash your benefits not only that month but for 3-6 months even for one time gifts or the difference between having utilities and a way to and from work? Most people wouldnt! Especially with no family to fall back on. If ny generation fails at something we dont have a family to run to in times of crisis. You're on the streets in sub-zero or scortching 110-130+ degree weather with a baby or two? Good luck. You need $100 to hold you over for 2 weeks until payday when you could pay it back, I hope you have the credit gor a loe interest payday loan. Daycare is closed or your baby is sick and cant go, hope your friends have time for you. No one can live and raise kids independently like that! Everyone has a time when they need just a bit of help but for us thats not family. Its not even friends most of the time, but the government.

Agree wholeheartedly with the bolded. The Boomers sucked as parents, and, sadly, that's the kind of thing that is easy for one generation to destroy and very had for follow-on generations to repair. And I would point out to my libertarian friends a hundred times the last. So long as you have broken families, you will have (and need) big government, to play the economic-risk-mitigation role that families fill in healthy societies.

However, I would point out that the breakup of families across our society has been enabled and driven by government policies, as much as it pushes people into them.
 
We do realize that it is not the right way to do things. Welfare and fraud etc but as you said looking back how would you and your wife have made it without any extended family or the babysitting and extra time to gain a nest egg? Its hard work to raise kids and weve put our best foot forward in that aspect with college and working stably for 6 years. But every little thing is enough to ruin what weve started to build. If the car breaks down there is no family to loan you their car or drive you to work so you eitger fix the car abd lose your home or not and lose your job thus lose your home by default. Our son at 6 months old had RSV and was hospitalized for two weeks over Christmas. When he got out he wasnt well enough to go back to the daycare we had him in with tge vreathing treatments and steroidal nedications he was taking every 2,4, and 6 hours. So we called off taking turns until he was better. No one is self-made. Most "selfmade" individuals had a family backing enabling them to work and go to college free from the obligation of rent. They had family alongside them to help with kids and food or supplies for their small business. They werent left alone for days on end as kids but taught, nurtured, and disciplined/structured. We tell our kids that life isnt fair, and sometimes it sucks, and you have to work hard. We have explained to our 5 year old why he doesnt eat the same right now, and why we had to sell the video games we bought him in 2012. He knows that bills come first and entertainment second. He also knows there is alot of fun to be had at parks, in the woods, and with simple sticks, rocks, balls, and frisbees. The good old fashioned entertainment! Even though we have to rely on the government and at times work around it, I know my kids will be different. We dont push college. My younger son wants to be a construction worker and loves archery. We encourage that. My older son is a born mechanic or technical worker. Since he was 2 if you gave him a broken dvd player, Xbox, or at times even computers he will have them working in an hour or so. Now that he is five he actually got removed from school for taking apart the chairs and table with his makeshift screwdriver. So he can do that if he so chooses. I wont force my kids into decades of student loan debt for the purpose of being proud of their academic achievements Ill be a proud mother of a construction worker and mechanic all day long :).
You said a lot in that post, and I don't know if I can do it justice with a complete reply.

You are so right that the failure of family is one of the biggest problems we face today. IMHO, the writing was on the wall when the post war economy realized that most households now had TWO potential incomes. I can remember well how this works since I was a wee tyke in the '50s, and my Mother always had a job. The way they got ahead was simple: we lived with her parents while Mom & Dad went to work to earn a nest egg while Granny and Gramps took care of the little bundle of joy. Similarly, my wife's family was fairly large, so her Mother also worked - and she (as the eldest) did most of the child care and housework duties. I am just a techno-freak and business guy, so I didn't really give much thought to how it would work, but imagine my horror when she announced to me that when we had kids, she would walk away from her career that took over a decade of full and part time education to establish? Well, 30 years later, watching our kids grow up with a FULL TIME parent + 1/2 and usually some extended family around, we can really see the difference between their group of friends (almost all of whom had "super-moms" as well) and those from latch-key or broken families.

I can also tell you that another thing lost with family values of the past is the level of personal responsibility that was ingrained in kids - and STILL can be. When you talk about being in the street with a couple of kids - the concept was that you didn't HAVE kids until and unless you could afford to raise them. The other almost lost idea was that marriage was a PERMANENT COMITTMENT kind of deal, not some on-again-off-again thing - and that it was an integral part of the family it took to have and raise children. I realize you are not to blame as you are a product of that environment - but it is within your purvey to change that heritage before passing it along to your progeny.

The other comment is about "working the sytem". Maybe you think that is just fine, but again, I can tell you from first hand experience that there are still a few people left who would not only avoid defrauding the government of money, but who would not accept government money under ANY circumstances - partly because of what it would teach THEIR children what was right and wrong.

What I think you realize, or at least I hope you do, is that an extended and stable family is not just there to lend you a few bucks until payday - it is there so you learn how to live responsibly and never even THINK about doing so. While we may be economically and technically more advanced than most Asian nations it is the strength of family that allows them to succeed easily in a world that seems to baffle our best efforts today.
 
The odds of a straight flush being beaten by a higher straight flush are 100%.

Actually what happened was at a table with four other players I went all in with a 7 hi straight flush in hearts. I was holding the 3 and 4 of hearts, there was the 5, 6, and 7 on the board and the other guy held the 8 and 9. Like I said....what are the odds?
 
I agree that everyone needs help in some way or another. One of my favorite books, Lincolns Melancholy, is about the major problems and failures he had and how they helped him to become one of the greatest leaders in history. He didn't have good parents, was born in poverty, and his wife is famous for being incredibly difficult. People loved him though, and from time to time he would get help from friends, but he was probably as close as one could be to "self made". Many people who've been through terrible circumstances in their lives acquire great insight, which is priceless. Lincoln had that. So did Annie Sullivan, who was Helen Keller's teacher. So do many coaches, writers, leaders, etc....


We do realize that it is not the right way to do things. Welfare and fraud etc but as you said looking back how would you and your wife have made it without any extended family or the babysitting and extra time to gain a nest egg? Its hard work to raise kids and weve put our best foot forward in that aspect with college and working stably for 6 years. But every little thing is enough to ruin what weve started to build. If the car breaks down there is no family to loan you their car or drive you to work so you eitger fix the car abd lose your home or not and lose your job thus lose your home by default. Our son at 6 months old had RSV and was hospitalized for two weeks over Christmas. When he got out he wasnt well enough to go back to the daycare we had him in with tge vreathing treatments and steroidal nedications he was taking every 2,4, and 6 hours. So we called off taking turns until he was better. No one is self-made. Most "selfmade" individuals had a family backing enabling them to work and go to college free from the obligation of rent. They had family alongside them to help with kids and food or supplies for their small business. They werent left alone for days on end as kids but taught, nurtured, and disciplined/structured. We tell our kids that life isnt fair, and sometimes it sucks, and you have to work hard. We have explained to our 5 year old why he doesnt eat the same right now, and why we had to sell the video games we bought him in 2012. He knows that bills come first and entertainment second. He also knows there is alot of fun to be had at parks, in the woods, and with simple sticks, rocks, balls, and frisbees. The good old fashioned entertainment! Even though we have to rely on the government and at times work around it, I know my kids will be different. We dont push college. My younger son wants to be a construction worker and loves archery. We encourage that. My older son is a born mechanic or technical worker. Since he was 2 if you gave him a broken dvd player, Xbox, or at times even computers he will have them working in an hour or so. Now that he is five he actually got removed from school for taking apart the chairs and table with his makeshift screwdriver. So he can do that if he so chooses. I wont force my kids into decades of student loan debt for the purpose of being proud of their academic achievements Ill be a proud mother of a construction worker and mechanic all day long :).
 
Most production factory jobs require skills. You can't just outsource the low skilled jobs at a factory. You implied that factory jobs were low skilled.

I'm guessing this means I must turn your initial question around. Have you ever worked in a factory?

It's well known that low skill factory jobs are outsourced. What is with the trolling?
 
I'm guessing this means I must turn your initial question around. Have you ever worked in a factory?

It's well known that low skill factory jobs are outsourced. What is with the trolling?

A lot of the factory jobs have been replaced by technology, i.e. robots. They work real cheap, no benefits and when they die just drag them off the floor. A Republican's dream. Now if they can just send the poor and aged back to county poor farms their entire dream will be realized.
 
Actually what happened was at a table with four other players I went all in with a 7 hi straight flush in hearts. I was holding the 3 and 4 of hearts, there was the 5, 6, and 7 on the board and the other guy held the 8 and 9. Like I said....what are the odds?

I've lost that way before. I've seen quads lose to higher quads, quads lose to straight flushes and aces full lose to quads. It happens and the more you play the more likily it is to happen.
 
I'm guessing this means I must turn your initial question around. Have you ever worked in a factory?

It's well known that low skill factory jobs are outsourced. What is with the trolling?

Yes twice. Now I work at an assembly facility where we also do some manufacturing. Everyone here needs some skill.

Can you show me an example of a factory staffed by low skilled workers that has been outsourced simply because of the low skills required?
 
A lot of the factory jobs have been replaced by technology, i.e. robots. They work real cheap, no benefits and when they die just drag them off the floor. A Republican's dream. Now if they can just send the poor and aged back to county poor farms their entire dream will be realized.

And yet you sit there posting on a computer, which is basically what the heart of a robot is.

Maybe you think we should go back to filing everything on paper, in triplicate, use pencil and paper to add up sales figures, project sales and production needs by using paper charts, order raw materials by post and change out all the excavators for spoons when repairing the highways. Maybe we should not use automation to control our power plants or packaging lines? Hell maybe we should get rid of the wheel and the lever and just use people to do everything.
 
I've lost that way before. I've seen quads lose to higher quads, quads lose to straight flushes and aces full lose to quads. It happens and the more you play the more likily it is to happen.

'course I wouldn't know that. I started playing poker with my dad and my brothers about 65 years ago. I started playing online poker in the late 90's and I'm registered at two sites where I play every day right now. Odds are not a secret....they can be read online and a straight flush being beaten by another straight flush at a table with five players is about as common as hen's teeth.
 
'course I wouldn't know that. I started playing poker with my dad and my brothers about 65 years ago. I started playing online poker in the late 90's and I'm registered at two sites where I play every day right now. Odds are not a secret....they can be read online and a straight flush being beaten by another straight flush at a table with five players is about as common as hen's teeth.

Then you don't know what the odds mean. The odds of a pocket pair in hold'em are 16-1. It is 16-1 for the next hand even if you have gotten them 4 hands in a row. Losing with a SF to a higher SF is unusual but it happens. If it couldn't happen the odds for it would not exist.
 
Then you don't know what the odds mean. The odds of a pocket pair in hold'em are 16-1. It is 16-1 for the next hand even if you have gotten them 4 hands in a row. Losing with a SF to a higher SF is unusual but it happens. If it couldn't happen the odds for it would not exist.

If you start a hand in TX Holdem with a suited pair the odds against you making a flush in that hand is 218 to 1. If you draw an ace the odds are 7-1 against anybody else at the table having one. After the flop one must start looking at the number of outs they have to make a hand and consider how much they already have in the pot to determine if it's worth continuing or to fold.

The odds against two straight flushes at a table where there are five players is astronomical.
 
If you start a hand in TX Holdem with a suited pair the odds against you making a flush in that hand is 218 to 1. If you draw an ace the odds are 7-1 against anybody else at the table having one. After the flop one must start looking at the number of outs they have to make a hand and consider how much they already have in the pot to determine if it's worth continuing or to fold.

The odds against two straight flushes at a table where there are five players is astronomical.

Just because the odds are high doesn't mean there is something wrong when it happens. I don't know the exact odds of 2 SF in a hand but say in an honest game they are 1,000,000 to 1 and it happens. The odds of it happening the next hand are still 1,000,000 to 1 and if it happens again it happens.
 
Just because the odds are high doesn't mean there is something wrong when it happens. I don't know the exact odds of 2 SF in a hand but say in an honest game they are 1,000,000 to 1 and it happens. The odds of it happening the next hand are still 1,000,000 to 1 and if it happens again it happens.

That's true of a slot machine too. You hit a jackpot and continue to play that machine the odds are exactly what they were before you hit it. I still don't think you get it. For there to be two straight flushes at the same five player table the correct nine of the thirteen hearts(or other suite) would have to be dealt to two players and the five cards on the board. Like I said.....go for it.
 
That's true of a slot machine too. You hit a jackpot and continue to play that machine the odds are exactly what they were before you hit it. I still don't think you get it. For there to be two straight flushes at the same five player table the correct nine of the thirteen hearts(or other suite) would have to be dealt to two players and the five cards on the board. Like I said.....go for it.

The odds are always the same. Just because something is unlikely doesn't mean there is something wrong.

You should be looking at it as a good thing since it doesn't happen often and you were in a game where it did.
 
If you want to fix poverty... we'd have to realize that we are a society and not alienate people with a "****em" attitude.

Tie the economy together with a living wage tied and adjusted to inflation. That would go a long way to fixing a lot of poverty. IMO, you should not work a 40 hour week and still be in poverty. Medicaid for all, so that we destroy the bankruptcies which are by far induced by medical costs.

Right there you have a healthier workforce and a workforce that has a disposable income that lifts the economy.

A living wage is a subjective measure. People will just move the goal posts. A reasonable standard of living means different things to different people.
 
A living wage is a subjective measure.

I just figured out my living wage, it's $1,200/hour.

Where do I sign up to make that kind of money without doing anything different in my job?
 
The odds are always the same. Just because something is unlikely doesn't mean there is something wrong.

You should be looking at it as a good thing since it doesn't happen often and you were in a game where it did.

I've never lost a penny playing online poker....or any other online game for that matter. I gamble for money when my wife and I go to Vegas, Atlantic City, Biloxi, Tunica, Cherokee etc. The cold hard facts are that my age kinda precludes me from doing exactly what I would like to do...though I blew it out my ass until a few years ago.
 
Get a job.

I don't need one

I worked my ass off for other people for 43 years. Now my kids are well educated, everything I have is paid for, I live on the lake and my wife and I draw about $5,000 a month in pensions and social security.
 
A living wage is a subjective measure. People will just move the goal posts. A reasonable standard of living means different things to different people.


thats true, but as we become more and more productive of a society, creating more and more wealth, we should be moving the goal post.
 
I just figured out my living wage, it's $1,200/hour.

Where do I sign up to make that kind of money without doing anything different in my job?

I think you forgot the decimal point between the 12 and the zeros.
 
thats true, but as we become more and more productive of a society, creating more and more wealth, we should be moving the goal post.

What's your standard of "productive?" Not to be argumentative, just curious.
 
Back
Top Bottom