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What's the problem with Deism?

Deism:


So why didn't Deism thrive and over-take Theism? Especially as we've moved into a much more modern and literate society?

What's the problem with Deism?
Does it not offer the "reward/punishment" system of "justice" that many crave?
Is it a "hopeless" ideology? The whole "not interacting with humans" part is the catch?
Let's make sure were all on the same page here!

Deism is the belief is a Creator God who simply "walked away" from His Creation once He was finished with the Creative act.

A Deist god does not hear our prayers. He does not help us in our time of need. He would never send His Son to die for us nor would He ever send His "Word" (Bible) to us.

Ultimately, He is an irrelevant god.

And that is the problem with Deism.

And that is the problem with Deism.
I mean, it covers the bases for "how all this got started" and allows for all the "intelligent design" and "watchmaker" trains of thought.
It covers the idea of evolution and other stumbling blocks that many theistic religion are at odds over.
There are, ultimately, too many contradictions with the Bible
Many of the USofA's founding fathers were Deists.
No, most of our Founding Fathers were not Deist. You can start here.
So why has deism basically seemed to disappear from modern society?
Too many contradictions with the Bible is my guess.
Clearly its easy to point to a ginormous lack of "god/supernatural interaction" with mankind over the last few thousand years.
Yet many people talk of interactions with God. Answered prayer would be an example of this.
A "supreme being" doesn't even have to be a "supernatural being" does it? Is that the problem?
Well, if He's not a "supernatural being" then what makes Him a "supreme being"?
Deism seems to check some boxes that theism doesn't...
Such as?
...some I'm wondering why it's all but disappeared from modern society?

Thoughts?
The above should do it for you.
 
Deism:


So why didn't Deism thrive and over-take Theism? Especially as we've moved into a much more modern and literate society?

What's the problem with Deism?
Does it not offer the "reward/punishment" system of "justice" that many crave?
Is it a "hopeless" ideology? The whole "not interacting with humans" part is the catch?

I mean, it covers the bases for "how all this got started" and allows for all the "intelligent design" and "watchmaker" trains of thought.
It covers the idea of evolution and other stumbling blocks that many theistic religion are at odds over.

Many of the USofA's founding fathers were Deists.

So why has deism basically seemed to disappear from modern society?

Clearly its easy to point to a ginormous lack of "god/supernatural interaction" with mankind over the last few thousand years.

A "supreme being" doesn't even have to be a "supernatural being" does it? Is that the problem?

Deism seems to check some boxes that theism doesn't, some I'm wondering why it's all but disappeared from modern society?

Thoughts?
Theism had better armies
 
Deism is too boring, and it does not fill the pews on Sundays.
I was a deist for a few years in 1998-02, until I met a group of Humanists. It requires too much logic for conservative Christian hypocrites.

There is more evidence that the US was created as a deist country than there ever will be that the US was created as a Christian country.

Although Lessing’s rational Deism was the object of violent attack on the part of Pietist writers and more mystical thinkers, it influenced such men as Moses Mendelssohn, a German Jewish philosopher who applied Deism to the Jewish faith. Immanuel Kant, the most important figure in 18th-century German philosophy, stressed the moral element in natural religion when he wrote that moral principles are not the result of any revelation but rather originate from the very structure of man’s reason. English Deists, however, continued to influence German Deism. Witnesses attest that virtually the whole officer corps of Frederick the Great was “infected” with Deism and that Collins and Tindal were favourite reading in the army.


By the end of the 18th century, Deism had become a dominant religious attitude among intellectual and upper-class Americans. Benjamin Franklin, the great sage of the colonies and then of the new republic, summarized in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale College, a personal creed that almost literally reproduced Herbert’s five fundamental beliefs. The second and third presidents of the United States also held Deistic convictions, as is amply evidenced in their correspondence. “The ten commandments and the sermon on the mount contain my religion,” John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson in 1816.
The genius of the founding fathers is they understood that Christianity could not only stand on its own but would thrive without being written into the laws and founding documents of the country. In fact, it was likely their own “faith” that led them to this conclusion. Many of the founding fathers—Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison and Monroe—practiced a faith called Deism. Deism is a philosophical belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems. Deists believe in a supreme being who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws—and after creation, is absent from the world. This belief in reason over dogma helped guide the founders toward a system of government that respected faiths like Christianity, while purposely isolating both from encroaching on one another so as not to dilute the overall purpose and objectives of either.


If the founders were dogmatic about anything, it was the belief that a person’s faith should not be intruded upon by government and that religious doctrine should not be written into governance. James Madison, for instance, was vigorously opposed to religious intrusions into civil affairs. In 1785, when the Commonwealth of Virginia was considering passage of a bill “establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion,” Madison wrote his “Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments,” in which he presented 15 reasons why government should not become involved in the support of any religion.
 
Not true.
I just posted proof that it is true. The framers were not fans of the othedox chritian church. Christians shave the same religious rights as everyone else but the US was not created as a Christian country. There is zero evidence of that despite what you want to believe. The only reason that Christians want to make that unsupportable claim is so they can strip religious and secular rights from others to give themselves religious and secular privileges and create a violent and abusive Christian theocracy in the US.

I never understood the hypocrisy of opposing Sharia law but trying to do the very same thing with their own conservative Christian beliefs at the very same time. It is very obvious that Christians for the most part do not support equal rights for others that they themselves enjoy.
 
I just posted proof that it is true. The framers were not fans of the othedox chritian church. Christians shave the same religious rights as everyone else but the US was not created as a Christian country. There is zero evidence of that despite what you want to believe.
On the Subject of Christianity

Benjamin Rush
(1746-1813, signer of the Declaration of Independence, a founder of the Philadelphia Bible Society)
“…Christianity is the only true and perfect religion; and that in proportion as mankind adopt its principles and obey its precepts they will be wise and happy.”
- Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical, 1798

Alexis De Tocqueville (1805-1859, French diplomat, political scientist, and historian)
“The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and liberty so intimately in their minds that it is impossible to make them conceive one without the other.”
- Democracy and America

Samuel Adams (1722 - 1803, Founding Father, Signer of the Declaration of Independence)
“Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, or inculcating in their own minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity…in short of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.”
- Letter to John Adams, October 4, 1790

Benjamin Rush (1746-1813, signer of the Declaration of Independence, a founder of the Philadelphia Bible Society)
“In contemplating the political institutions of the United States, I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them. We profess to be republicans and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government. That is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible.”
- A Defense of the Use of the Bible as a School Book, 1798

Noah Webster (1758 - 1843, Founding Father, author of Webster’s Dictionary and textbooks).
“In my view, the Christian Religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed…no truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian Religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
- Reply to David McClure, October 25, 1836

Benjamin Rush (1746-1813, signer of the Declaration of Independence, a founder of the Philadelphia Bible Society)
[T]he only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government is the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible
- Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical, 1798, p. 112.
 
@Lisa
John Quincy Adams (1767 - 1848, Sixth President of the United States)
“…the Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of government on the precepts of Christianity.”
- Speech given on the 61st Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence July 4, 1837 in the town of Newburyport.

Daniel Webster (1782 - 1852, Congressman, Secretary of State, America’s greatest orator)
Whatever makes men good Christians makes them good citizens.
- Speech at Plymouth, Massachusetts, December 22, 1820.

John Adams (1735-1826, second President of the United States)
The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence were…the principles of Christianity…Now I will avow that I then believed, and now believed, that those principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.
- a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration of Independence was approved by Congress

Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790, Founding Father, inventor, author, signed both Declaration of Independence and Constitution)
He who should introduce into public affairs the principles of Christianity will change the face of the world.
- History of the United States, George Bancroft, 1866

The United States Supreme Court, 1892
If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth. Among other matters note the following: The form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all wills, "In the name of God, amen;" the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town, and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing everywhere under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe. These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.
- Holy Trinity Church vs. The United States, 1892
 
@Lisa
On the Subject of the Bible


John McClean
(1785-1861, named by President Andrew Jackson to the United States Supreme Court, 1829)
“The morality of the Bible must continue to be the basis of our government. There is no other foundation for free institutions.”
- Letter of November 4, 1852

Noah Webster (1758-1843, Founding Father, author of Webster’s Dictionary and school textbooks).
“…the moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws…
All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.”
- History of the United States, 1833

Zachary Taylor (12th President of the United States)
“A free government cannot exist without religion and morals, and there cannot be morals without religion, nor religions without the Bible.”
- “The President and the Bible,” New York Semi-Weekly Tribune, 4, no. 11, May 9, 1849 (as cited by U-Turn by George Barna and David Barton)

Teddy Roosevelt (26th President of the United States)

“The teachings of the Bible are so interwoven and entwined with our whole civic and social life, that it would be literally--and I do not mean figuratively, I mean literally--impossible for us to figure to ourselves what that life would be if these teachings were removed. We would lose almost all of the standards by which we now judge both public and private morals; all the standards toward which we, with more or less resolution, strive to raise ourselves.”
- A Square Deal (Allendale, NJ: The Allendale Press, 1906), 203-204 (as cited by U-Turn by George Barna and David Barton)

Frederick Douglass (1818-1895, former slave, Leader of Abolitionist Movement, author, speaker, Published first U.S. abolitionist newspaper called The North Star.)

I have one great political idea… That idea is an old one. It is widely and generally assented to; nevertheless, it is very generally trampled upon and disregarded. The best expression of it, I have found in the Bible. It is in substance, "Righteousness exalteth a nation; sin is a reproach to any people" [Proverbs 14:34]. This constitutes my politics - the negative and positive of my politics, and the whole of my politics… I feel it my duty to do all in my power to infuse this idea into the public mind, that it may speedily be recognized and practiced upon by our people.
-The Frederick Douglass Papers, John Blassingame, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1982), Vol. 2, p. 397, from a speech delivered at Ithaca, New York, October 14th, 1852.
 
@Lisa
On the Subject of the Bible

Zachary Taylor
(12th President of the United States
“A free government cannot exist without religion and morals, and there cannot be morals without religion, nor religions without the Bible.”
- “The President and the Bible,” New York Semi-Weekly Tribune, 4, no. 11, May 9, 1849

Elias Boudinot (1740-1821, Founding Father, President of the Continental Congress, framer of the Bill of Rights.)
…were you to ask me to recommend the most valuable book in the world, I should fix on the Bible as the most instructive both to the wise and ignorant. Were you to ask me for one affording the most rational and pleasing entertainment to the inquiring mind, I should repeat, it is the Bible; and should you renew the inquiry for the best philosophy or the most interesting history, I should still urge you to look into your Bible. I would make it, in short, the Alpha and Omega of knowledge
- The Age of Revelation, or the Age of Reason Shown to Be an Age of Infidelity, 1801, p. xv, from the “Dedication: Letter to his daughter Susan Bradford”.

John Adams (1735-1826, Second President of the United States)
I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.
- Works, Vol. X, p. 85, letter written to Thomas Jefferson.

Benjamin Rush (1746-1813, signer of the Declaration of Independence, a founder of the Philadelphia Bible Society)
By renouncing the Bible, philosophers swing from their moorings upon all moral subjects. ... It is the only correct map of the human heart that ever has been published
- Letters of Benjamin Rush, 1951, Vol. I, p. 475.

Benjamin Rush (1746-1813, signer of the Declaration of Independence, a founder of the Philadelphia Bible Society)
[T]he only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government is the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible
- Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical, 1798, p. 112.

Benjamin Rush (1746-1813, signer of the Declaration of Independence, a founder of the Philadelphia Bible Society)
The Bible contains more knowledge necessary to man in his present state than any other book in the world
-Essays, 1798, p. 93.

Robert Treat Paine (1731-1814, signer of the Declaration of Independence, Attorney General of Massachusetts.)
I believe the Bible to be the written word of God and to contain in it the whole rule of faith and manners.
- The Papers of Robert Treat Paine, Vol. I, p. 49.
 
@Lisa
On the Subject of the Bible

James McHenry
(1753 - 1816, Signer of the Constitution, Secretary of War under Presidents Washington & Adams.)
The holy Scriptures…Can alone secure to society order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions or government, purity, stability, and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and drop protections around our institutions.
- Bernard C. Steiner, One Hundred and Ten Years of Bible Society Work in Maryland, 1810 - 1920 (Maryland Bible Society, 1921) 14.

Samuel Adams (1722-1803), Founding Father and “The Father of the American Revolution”).
…every man living in or out of a state of civil society has a right to peaceably and quietly to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience…Just and true liberty, equal and impartial liberty…The Rights of the Colonists…
These may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.
-The Rights of the Colonists. The Reports of the Committee of Correspondence to the Boston Town Meeting, Nov. 20, 1772. Old South Leaflets no. 173 (Boston: Directors of the Old South Work, 1906) 7: 418-419. http//history.edu/text.adams.html.

John Lock (1632-1704, Most influential political philosopher of the Founding Fathers. Author of Two Treatise on Government.)
[L]aws human must be made according to the general laws of Nature, and without contradiction to the any positive law of Scripture, otherwise they are ill made.
-Two Treatise of Government (London: 1772) Book II, 285.

Thomas Paine (1737-1809, author of the bestselling pamphlet Common Sense which galvanized the British resistance in the colonies.)
Commenting on the French’s secular teaching of science in public schools, 1797:
It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the author.
When we examine an extraordinary piece of machinery, an astonishing pile of architecture, a well-executed statue, or an highly finished painting, where life and action are imitated, and habit only prevents our mistaking a surface of light and shade for cubical solidity, our ideas are naturally led to think of the extensive genius and talents of the artist. When we study the elements of geometry, we think of Euclid. When we speak of gravitation, we think of Newton. How then is it, that when we study the works of God in the creation, we stop short, and do not think of GOD? It is from the error of the schools in having taught those subjects as accomplishments only, and thereby separated the study of them from the ‘Being’ who is the author of them…
The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of Atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal…
[E]ven supposing matter to be eternal, it will not account for the system of the universe, or of the solar system, because it will not account for motion, and it is motion that preserves it. When, therefore, we discover a circumstance of such immense importance, that without it the universe could not exist, and for which neither matter, nor any nor all the properties can account, we are by necessity forced into the rational comformable belief of the existence of a cause superior to matter, and that cause man calls GOD.
As to that which is called nature, it is no other than the laws by which motion and action of every kind, with respect to unintelligible matter, is regulated. And when we speak of looking through nature up to nature’s God, we speak philosophically the same rational language as when we speak of looking through human laws up to the power that ordained them.
God is the power of first cause, nature is the law, and matter is the subject acted upon.
- Daniel Edwin Wheeler, ed., Thomas Paine (New York: Vincent Parrke and Company, 1908), 2-4
 
@Lisa
On the Subject of Religion and Morality as the Foundation of Freedom

John Adams
(1735-1826, Second President of the United States)
“Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which Freedom can securely stand.”
- Letter of June21, 1776

George Washington (1732-1799, “The Father of American”)
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.” [emphasis mine]
- Farewell Address, 1796

John McClean (1785-1861, named by President Andrew Jackson to the United States Supreme Court, 1829)
“The morality of the Bible must continue to be the basis of our government. There is no other foundation for free institutions.”
- Letter of November 4, 1852

Benjamin Rush (1746-1813, signer of the Declaration of Independence, a founder of the Philadelphia Bible Society)
“The only foundation for…a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”
- Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical, 1798

Samuel Adams (1722-1803), Founding Father and “The Father of the American Revolution”).
“Religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness.”
- Letter to John Trumbell, October 16, 1778

Charles Carroll (1737-1832, signer of the Declaration of Independence)
“Without morals, a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they, therefore, who are decrying the Christian religion…are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free government.”
- Letter to James Mettenry, November 4, 1800

Daniel Webster (1782-1852, U.S. Congressman)
“To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are a waste paper.”
- Oration at Hanover, N.H., July 4, 1800

John Adams (1735-1826, second President of the United States)
…a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty once lost is lost forever. When the People once surrender their share in the Legislature, and their Right of defending the Limitations upon the Government, and of resisting every Encroachment upon them, they can never regain it…
- Letter to Abigail Adams, July 7, 1775
 
@Lisa
On the Subject of Voting

Rev. Charles Finney
(1792-1875, revivalist and theologian of the Second Great Awakening)
“Christians must vote for honest men and take consistent ground in politics. God cannot sustain this free and blessed country, which we love and pray for, unless the Church will take right ground. Politics are a part of a religion in such a country as this, and Christians (and citizens) must do their duty to the country as a part of their duty to God. It seems sometimes as if the foundations of the nation are becoming rotten, and Christians seem to act as if they think God does not see what they do in politics. But I tell you He does see it, and He will bless or curse this nation, according to the course they [Christians] take [in politics].
- “Hindrances to Revivals,” in Lectures on Revivals of Religion (New York: Levitt, Lord, and Co., 1835), 274-275 (as cited by U-Turn by George Barna and David Barton)

Rev. Willard Spaulding
The pulpit should teach the people not to forget their religion while acting the part of citizens. Singular as it may seem, there are many men who stand will in the church but who are a disgrace to the state. They pray well but the vote infamously…There are multitudes of the most moral and religious members of the community who thus neglect their civil duties. Hence the elections in many cases are carried by the selfish and the debased.
- The Pulpit and the State: A Discourse Preached on Sunday, Feb. 15, 1863. Salem, MA: Charles A. Beckford, 1863.

Rev. Frances Grimke (1850-1937, Pastored the 15th Street Presbyterian Church in Washington D.C. for 50 years)
It is now no longer a question as to whether we are a nation, or a confederation of sovereign and independent states. That question is settled, and settled once for all by the issue [outcome] of the [Civil] War. …The Stars and Stripes, the old flag, will float, as long as it floats, over all these states, from the Atlantic to the Pacific, from the Lakes to the Gulf. If the time ever comes when we shall go to pieces, it will not be form any desire or disposition on the part of the states to pull apart, but from inward corruption -- from the disregard of right principles, from the spirit of greed, from the narrowing lust of gold, from losing sight of the fact that “righteousness exalteth a nation, but that sin is a reproach to any people” [Proverbs 14:34]. It is here where our real danger lies – not in the secession of the States from the Union, but in the secession of the Union itself from the great and immutable principles of right, of justice, of fair play for all regardless of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
- Sermon of Sunday, March 7th, 1909 on maintaining the right principles.
* Frances Grimke was born into slavery.
* Valet in Confederate Army until emancipation.
* Attended Lincoln University, Howard University & Princeton Theological Seminary.
* Helped form the NAACP.
* Pastored the 15th Street Presbyterian Church in Washington D.C. for 50 years

Rev. Matthias Burnett (1749-1803, Pastor of the First Baptist Church in Norwalk)
Consider well the important trust . . . which God . . . [has] put into your hands… To God and posterity you are accountable for [your rights and your rulers]…Let not your children have reason to curse you for giving up those rights and prostrating those institutions which your fathers delivered to you. . . [L]ook well to the characters and qualifications of those you elect and raise to office and places of trust. . . Watch over your liberties and privileges - civil and religious - with a careful eye.
- An Election Sermon, Preached at Hartford, on the Day of the Anniversary Election, May 12, 1803 (Hartford: Printed by Hudson & Goodwin, 1803), pp. 27-28.]
 
@Lisa
Alexander Hamilton (1757-1804, (Founding Father of the United States, chief staff aide to General George Washington, one of the most influential interpreters and promoters of the U.S. Constitution, the founder of the nation's financial system, the founder of the Federalist Party, the world's first voter-based political party, the founder of the United States Coast Guard, etc.)
A share in the sovereignty of the state, which is exercised by the citizens at large, in voting at elections is one of the most important rights of the subject, and in a republic ought to stand foremost in the estimation of the law.
- The Papers of Alexander Hamilton, Harold C. Syrett, ed. (New York, Columbia University Press, 1962), Vol III, pp. 544-545.

John Jay (1745-1829, Founding Father, Signed Treaty of Paris, First Chief of Justice of the Supreme Court, 1795-1801)
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation, to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
- The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed. (New York: G.P. Putnams Sons, 1890), Vol. IV, p. 365.

Daniel Webster (1782-1852, U.S. Congressman)
Impress upon children the truth that the exercise of the elective franchise is a social duty of as solemn a nature as man can be called to perform; that a man may not innocently trifle with his vote; that every elector is a trustee as well for others as himself and that every measure he supports has an important bearing on the interests of others as well as on his own.
- The Works of Daniel Webster (Boston: Little, Brown, and Company, 1853), Vol. II, p. 108, from remarks made at a public reception by the ladies of Richmond, Virginia, on October 5, 1840.]

Noah Webster (1758-1843, Founding Father, author of Webster’s Dictionary and school textbooks).
In selecting men for office, let principle be your guide. Regard not the particular sect or denomination of the candidate - look to his character…When a citizen gives his suffrage to a man of known immorality he abuses his trust; he sacrifices not only his own interest, but that of his neighbor, he betrays the interest of his country.
- Letters to a Young Gentleman Commencing His Education to which is subjoined a Brief History of the United States (New Haven: S. Converse, 1823), pp. 18, 19.

Samuel Adams (1722-1803), Founding Father and “The Father of the American Revolution”).
Let each citizen remember at the moment he is offering his vote that he is not making a present or a compliment to please an individual - or at least that he ought not so to do; but that he is executing one of the most solemn trusts in human society for which he is accountable to God and his country.
- The Writings of Samuel Adams, Harry Alonzo Cushing, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1907), Vol. IV, p. 256, in the Boston Gazette on April 16, 1781.

Matthew 13:24-25 Parable of the Tares (weed) Among the Wheat
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
Notice that Jesus never faulted the enemy for doing what comes natural to them but instead states that the tares were sown because the good men slept.

Or, to say it another way…

Edmund Burk 1729-1797, Irish born member of the British Parliament and supported the American Revolution)
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Robert Winthrop (1809-1894, 18th Speaker of the House of Representatives)
All societies of men must be governed in some way or other. The less they may have of stringent State Government, the more they must have of individual self-government. The less they rely on public law or physical force, the more they must rely on private moral restraint. Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled, either by a power within them, or by a power without them; either by the Word of God, or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible, or by the bayonet. It may do for other countries and other governments to talk about the State supporting religion. Here, under our own free institutions, it is Religion which must support the State. [emphasis mine]
- Addresses and Speeches on Various Occasions (Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1852), p. 172 from his "Either by the Bible or the Bayonet.")

John Quincy Adams (1767-1829, 6th President of the United States)
Duty is ours; results are God’s.
- Quoted by Elbridge S. Brooks, Historic Americans: Sketches of the Lives and Characters of Certain Famous Americans (New York: Thomas Y. Crowell and Company, 18999), 209.
 
@Lisa
The Bible Written Into the Constitution

“The Bible is not part of US law...” - Lisa (her post no. 373, Why Should I Be Forced to Play Along with the Delusions of Others? Thread)

“Point-of-fact, it is written into our Constitution.” - Baron (just now!)

Isaiah 33:22
For the Lord is our Judge, the Lord is our lawgiver: the Lord is our King, he will save us. - Geneva Bible
This verse is the reason we have the three separate but equal branches of government:
1. Judge (Judiciary),
2. Lawgiver (Legislative), and
3. King (Executive).

Exodus 18:21
Moreover, provide thou among all the people [a]men of courage, fearing God, men dealing truly, hating covetousness: and appoint such over them to be rulers over thousands, rulers over hundreds, rulers over fifties, and rulers over tens. - Geneva Bible
This verse is the reason we have a Republican form of Government (No, America is not a Democracy! We are a Constitutional Republic).

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful and wicked above all things, who can know it? - Geneva Bible
This verse was cited by John Adams as the justification for the need for our separation of powers.

Ezekiel 18:20
The same soul that sinneth, shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son, but the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The Constitution of the United States of America, Article 3, Section 3
“The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder [capital punishment] of treason shall work corruption of blood or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.”
(The family of a guilty cannot be punished, only the guilty can be punished.)

Deuteronomy 17:6
At the mouth [of two or three witnesses shall he that is worthy of death, die: but at the mouth of one witness, he shall not die. - Geneva Bible
The Constitution of the United States of America, Article 3, Section 3
“Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act or on confession in open court.”
(Treason is a capital punishment but you cannot be convicted on the testimony of a single witness and is the only reason Vice-President Aaron Burr was not convicted.)

Deuteronomy 17:15
Then thou shalt make him King over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: from among thy brethren shalt thou make a King over thee: thou shalt not set a stranger over thee which is not thy brother. - Geneva Bible
The Constitution of the United States of America, Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5
“No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President…”

Sources include The Truth Project by Del Tackett and "Wallbuilders" created by David Barton
 
@Lisa
On the Subject of the Bible


John McClean
(

Noah Webster (1758-1843,

Zachary Taylor (12th President of the United States)


Teddy Roosevelt (26th President of the United States)



Frederick Douglass (1818-1895, former slave, Leader of Abolitionist Movement, author, speaker, Published first U.S. abolitionist newspaper called The North Star.)
David Barton is such a liar that his own publisher withdrew his books.
Citing a loss of confidence in the book's details, Christian publisher Thomas Nelson is ending the publication and distribution of the bestseller, The Jefferson Lies: Exposing the Myths You've Always Believed About Thomas Jefferson.




Cover art for The Jefferson Lies
Thomas Nelson Publishers

The controversial book was written by Texas evangelical David Barton, who NPR's Barbara Bradley Hagerty profiled on All Things Considered Wednesday. The publishing company says it's ceasing publication because it found that "basic truths just were not there."

From my previous reply,
By the end of the 18th century, Deism had become a dominant religious attitude among intellectual and upper-class Americans. Benjamin Franklin, the great sage of the colonies and then of the new republic, summarized in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale College, a personal creed that almost literally reproduced Herbert’s five fundamental beliefs. The second and third presidents of the United States also held Deistic convictions, as is amply evidenced in their correspondence. “The ten commandments and the sermon on the mount contain my religion,” John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson in 1816.
The US would not exist without the writings of Thomas Pain that kept the revolution alive with his pamphlets.

Age of Reason, Part II, Section 21​





Deism, then, teaches us, without the possibility of being deceived, all that is necessary or proper to be known. The creation is the Bible of the Deist. He there reads, in the handwriting of the Creator himself, the certainty of his existence and the immutability of his power, and all other Bibles and Testaments are to him forgeries. The probability that we may be called to account hereafter will, to a reflecting mind, have the influence of belief; for it is not our belief or disbelief that can make or unmake the fact. As this is the state we are in, and which it is proper we should be in, as free agents, it is the fool only, and not the philosopher, or even the prudent man, that would live as if there were no God.


But the belief of a God is so weakened by being mixed with the strange fable of the Christian creed, and with the wild adventures related in the Bible, and of the obscurity and obscene nonsense of the Testament, that the mind of man is bewildered as in a fog. Viewing all these things in a confused mass, he confounds fact with fable; and as he cannot believe all, he feels a disposition to reject all. But the belief of a God is a belief distinct from all other things, and ought not to be confounded with any. The notion of a Trinity of Gods has enfeebled the belief of one God. A multiplication of beliefs acts as a division of belief; and in proportion as anything is divided it is weakened.
 
The only reason that Christians want to make that unsupportable claim is so they can strip religious and secular rights from others to give themselves religious and secular privileges and create a violent and abusive Christian theocracy in the US.
Based on what?
I never understood the hypocrisy of opposing Sharia law but trying to do the very same thing with their own conservative Christian beliefs at the very same time.
Exactly how does Sharia Law have anything in common with Christianity.
It is very obvious that Christians for the most part do not support equal rights for others that they themselves enjoy.
Based on what?

You're just making this up!
 
David Barton is such a liar that his own publisher withdrew his books.
Yes, he was effectively cancelled before "cancelling" was a real thing.
From my previous reply,

The US would not exist without the writings of Thomas Pain that kept the revolution alive with his pamphlets.
And completely ignores everything else I posted for you...

...and demonstrates just how wrong you are.
 
Yes, he was effectively cancelled before "cancelling" was a real thing.

And completely ignores everything else I posted for you...

...and demonstrates just how wrong you are.
He was canceled because he was a lair and put his publisher in jeopardy of being sued. The moral is not to lie when you claim to be writing history. Is personal responsibility a problem for gullible religious conservatives?

This makes it very clear that the US was not being created as a Christian nation.

The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination.


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Dragonfly, you asked a question. In good faith I responded to it. I can't help it that you don't like the answer. And I also can't help that instead of considering the answer given related to the problem with deism (YOUR question) you prefer to focus on the problem with theism. Your question was answered -- deal with it.
Remove that ginormous chip from your shoulder.
I responded to your “good faith response“ in good faith.

I was just trying to clarify or dig deeper into your response.

Deal with it.
 
Remove that ginormous chip from your shoulder.
I responded to your “good faith response“ in good faith.

I was just trying to clarify or dig deeper into your response.

Deal with it.
I can't help it if you posted a dishonest question in order to attack theism. You can't deal with it.
 
I can't help it if you posted a dishonest question in order to attack theism. You can't deal with it.
Basic concepts of logic are in opposition to theism because there is no objective evidence to support any creator. Obviously, a god/gods must exist before they can act and so far that is not possible. Do you want to ban logical/critical thought in your religious zeal?
 
Basic concepts of logic are in opposition to theism because there is no objective evidence to support any creator. Obviously, a god/gods must exist before they can act and so far that is not possible. Do you want to ban logical/critical thought in your religious zeal?
Irrelevant to the question posed in the OP.
 
Irrelevant to the question posed in the OP.
You don't like your religious beliefs questioned and will do anything to deflect. I already replied to the OP on the first page. (#24)
 
Deism (absentee landlord god) is the only logical stance if a person claims to believe in a creator. It isn't common because most people don't know about it and it is not very politically useful due to the fact that the deity is neither worshipped or prayed to.

Don't blame others for what your god created. Satan only exists because of your god.
Tsk tsk...

Facepalm 3.jpg
 
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