What's the problem with Deism?

[Overitall]

You don't like your religious beliefs questioned and will do anything to deflect. I already replied to the OP on the first page. (#24)

The thread isn't about me or my beliefs. Your attempt to make it so are dismissed.

 

[Questerr]

The problem with Deism is that the salvation of Jesus for mankind would have never happened. There would also be no objective moral code for men to live by.

The earth would be an evil cesspool of subjective humanism.

There is no objective moral code in Christianity. You might be thinking raping and murdering a child is wrong, but if your god commanded you to do it, suddenly it would be right.

 

[Logicman]

I was a deist for a few years in 1998-02, until I met a group of Humanists. It requires too much logic for conservative Christian hypocrites.

Sure. Only progressives know what's really going on. LOL.

Don't blame others for what your god created. Satan only exists because of your god.

Tell me something:

If you were God creating individuals, which of the following would be appropriate?

Create all individuals with free will to do good or evil if they desire;

Or, create individuals with no free will. Instead, they would be programmed to only do 'good'.

 

[Overitall]

Sure. Only progressives know what's really going on. LOL.



Tell me something:

If you were God creating individuals, which of the following would be appropriate?

Create all individuals with free will to do good or evil if they desire;

Or, create individuals with no free will. Instead, they would be programmed to only do 'good'.

We're getting close to being able to do that without God. They're called robots. Let's just hope the programmer isn't evil.

 

[Lisa]

Sure. Only progressives know what's really going on. LOL.



Tell me something:

If you were God creating individuals, which of the following would be appropriate?

Create all individuals with free will to do good or evil if they desire;

Or, create individuals with no free will. Instead, they would be programmed to only do 'good'.

If I gave them free will then how is punishing them for evil possible, when I gave them that free will and created evil? That would be sadistic.

You are trapped in your own religious house of horrors and still can see the chains that bind you.

 

[Logicman]

If I gave them free will then how is punishing them for evil possible, when I gave them that free will and created evil? That would be sadistic.

You are trapped in your own religious house of horrors and still can see the chains that bind you.

You didn't give an answer on how YOU would create individuals.

Would you...

Create all individuals with free will to do good or evil if they desire;

Or, create individuals with no free will. Instead, they would be programmed to only do 'good'.

Where's your answer????

 

[Lisa]

You didn't give an answer on how YOU would create individuals.

Would you...

Create all individuals with free will to do good or evil if they desire;

Or, create individuals with no free will. Instead, they would be programmed to only do 'good'.

Where's your answer????

Free will may not exist.

Free Will and Neuroscience: From Explaining Freedom Away to New Ways of Operationalizing and Measuring It

The concept of free will is hard to define, but crucial to both individual and social life. For centuries people have wondered how freedom is possible in a world ruled by physical determinism; however, reflections on free will have been confined to philosophy until half a century ago, when the...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[Logicman]

Free will may not exist.

Free Will and Neuroscience: From Explaining Freedom Away to New Ways of Operationalizing and Measuring It

The concept of free will is hard to define, but crucial to both individual and social life. For centuries people have wondered how freedom is possible in a world ruled by physical determinism; however, reflections on free will have been confined to philosophy until half a century ago, when the...

www.frontiersin.org

You STILL didn't give an answer on how YOU would create individuals. If free will is out, how would you created man so that he can't do evil?

 

[RedSky]

I don't know if it is a problem for atheists but Deism can mean that there is or was a higher power or being that just went around spreading his seed and going off to do other things. For me, the idea that God just made us and doesn't know us and just left us to be without Him is not only depressing but scary.

 

[Lisa]

You STILL didn't give an answer on how YOU would create individuals. If free will is out, how would you created man so that he can't do evil?

How can I give free will if it doesn't exist?

Why would I want to be a god? Did you happen to forget that I am an atheist? It may come as a surprise to you but we godless types don't do that schtick.

 

[Daisy]

The fact that so many people believe so many different things is proof that mankind has free will...if free will did not exist, all of mankind would be worshippers of Jehovah God...

 

[Lisa]

The fact that so many people believe so many different things is proof that mankind has free will...if free will did not exist, all of mankind would be worshippers of Jehovah God...

Or it could be that all gods are made by man.

Nah, that could never be true......................

 

[RAMOSS]

The fact that so many people believe so many different things is proof that mankind has free will...if free will did not exist, all of mankind would be worshippers of Jehovah God...

That is an interesting claim. How can you show that the attempt at reasoning is true? How can you differentiate that from pure opinion and bias and show it's not just word salad?

 

[Dragonfly]

For me, the idea that God just made us and doesn't know us and just left us to be without Him is not only depressing but scary.

Can you show us with some kind of valid and convincing evidence/proof that "god" has paid any attention at all to life on Earth (human or otherwise) in your lifetime, or even within the last 1000 years?

If you take the whole "Noah & The Ark" story as literal fact, perhaps it's best if that particular vindictive genocidal maniac has left us completely on our own.

Seriously, what's there to be afraid of?

 

[RedSky]

Can you show us with some kind of valid and convincing evidence/proof that "god" has paid any attention at all to life on Earth (human or otherwise) in your lifetime, or even within the last 1000 years?

If you take the whole "Noah & The Ark" story as literal fact, perhaps it's best if that particular vindictive genocidal maniac has left us completely on our own.

Seriously, what's there to be afraid of?

Thanks for the reply.

No, I am not Christian and do not know if the Ark story is true or not. It does seem like many people think only in Judeo-Christian terms when trying to prove or deny the existence of something more divine than what can be seen. There are other paths.

Now, I don't have a clue how old you are but I am going to assume that perhaps you have had a parent or grandparent who has passed, someone who you loved and loved you back. Well if asked right now to prove it, how can you since that loved one is no longer around to verify it?

You don't need to prove it because you KNOW and that is your proof. God or a higher power is not something someone needs to prove to you, it is something you need to prove to yourself.

I absolutely do not believe that Christianity or any other religion (including Atheism, yes think about it) has a monopoly on God (or gods). And I believe God can be whatever you want - Jesus, the Dao, karma, Shiva, nature, your parents - whatever you feel created this world along with you in it.

In conclusion and this is only my conclusion - a person does not have to subscribe to any particular religion but without believing in something greater than themselves and hereafter, they cannot truly have morality or ethics a happenstance, you-only-live-once world.

 

[Dragonfly]

Thanks for the reply.

No, I am not Christian and do not know if the Ark story is true or not. It does seem like many people think only in Judeo-Christian terms when trying to prove or deny the existence of something more divine than what can be seen. There are other paths.

Now, I don't have a clue how old you are but I am going to assume that perhaps you have had a parent or grandparent who has passed, someone who you loved and loved you back. Well if asked right now to prove it, how can you since that loved one is no longer around to verify it?

You don't need to prove it because you KNOW and that is your proof. God or a higher power is not something someone needs to prove to you, it is something you need to prove to yourself.

I absolutely do not believe that Christianity or any other religion (including Atheism, yes think about it) has a monopoly on God (or gods). And I believe God can be whatever you want - Jesus, the Dao, karma, Shiva, nature, your parents - whatever you feel created this world along with you in it.

In conclusion and this is only my conclusion - a person does not have to subscribe to any particular religion but without believing in something greater than themselves and hereafter, they cannot truly have morality or ethics a happenstance, you-only-live-once world.

Wonderful reply, and I respect/understand a great deal of it.

However, you didn't answer the question of "what's there the be scared of" regarding the idea there's either no god, or a deistic god?

 

[RedSky]

Wonderful reply, and I respect/understand a great deal of it.

Thank you for the kind compliment.

However, you didn't answer the question of "what's there the be scared of" regarding the idea there's either no god, or a deistic god?

I cannot answer for anyone else and do not have the right to. For me personally, I believe in a benevolent force that regulates all happenings and I also happen to revere and worship my ancestors. So the thought of being abandoned by them makes me feel lonely, scared, and hopeless. I am not saying I know what happens after death since obviously, I have not died but would prefer to see it as the last great adventure. Since we are finite beings, it is not possible to understand the infinite nor is it possible to understand not being.

 

[Dragonfly]

So the thought of being abandoned by them makes me feel lonely, scared, and hopeless.

Doesn't "abandoned" imply they left you on purpose?

That seems an odd way to look at it. Why would you chose to look at it that way?

They may have died, but I highly doubt they died to simply get away from you.

 

[RedSky]

Doesn't "abandoned" imply they left you on purpose?

That seems an odd way to look at it. Why would you chose to look at it that way?

They may have died, but I highly doubt they died to simply get away from you.

Well, Deism, by definition is the belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. So maybe abandonment is not the right term perhaps indifference or disregard.

 

[Dragonfly]

Well, Deism, by definition is the belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. So maybe abandonment is not the right term perhaps indifference or disregard.

So I'm still trying to figure out the "scared" part you referenced earlier.

What's there to be scared of? That this life is all there is?
Wouldn't that make this life all the more precious, and therefore something to embrace with enthusiasm?

 

[The Baron]

He was canceled because he was a lair...

Hardly. But what does all of this have to do with what I've submitted. You are simply dodging the obvious. I've listed numerous Founding Fathers, citing my sources as appropriate. Since the vast majority of the quotes I've provided by our FF are not cited by Barton you still have to address these views of our FFs bedrock belief in Christianity.

This makes it very clear that the US was not being created as a Christian nation.

Didn't say we were created to be a Christian nation. I've never made that claim. What I have stated--quite correctly, mind you--is that America was founded on Christian principles.

And that is a reality that you and other secularist are simply going to have to learn to deal with.

 

[Questerr]

You didn't give an answer on how YOU would create individuals.

Would you...

Create all individuals with free will to do good or evil if they desire;

Or, create individuals with no free will. Instead, they would be programmed to only do 'good'.

Where's your answer????

I would do the former and ALSO not punish them for eternity for finite mistakes.

 

[Manc Skipper]

The fact that so many people believe so many different things is proof that mankind has free will...if free will did not exist, all of mankind would be worshippers of Jehovah God...

 

[Dragonfly]

...if free will did not exist, all of mankind would be worshippers of Jehovah God...

Hard to imagine arrogance on this level is possible, but there it is.

 

[Logicman]

How can I give free will if it doesn't exist?

Why would I want to be a god? Did you happen to forget that I am an atheist? It may come as a surprise to you but we godless types don't do that schtick.

OK, so you can't identify how you create man without evil in the world. YOU HAVE NOTHING.

As for free will, You claim that in your universe there would be no free will. FYI God created men and angels with free will, to do good or evil, so they can be free moral agents. This is for a limited time, until the final Judgment, or until God levies judgment on men, angels, demons, and nations. God gave this free will because there is no true love without freedom to choose either God or Satan. He did this to allow men and angels to operate on their own accords – to test God’s ways, and see if their ways are better, so that in the end there can be a final comparison and determination about whose way was better. We actually see an illustration of this in the 1st and 2nd chapters of the Book of Job – God allowing Satan to challenge his ways. You're not allowed a challenge in your universe.