• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

What's more important?

Which is more important?


  • Total voters
    17

sbrettt

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,724
Reaction score
783
Location
Prospect park, PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
So, what's more important? Is it this petty blame game of who shut down the Fed, or the economic effects it's having?
Obama And Boehner's Shutdown Is Destroying Investors' Confidence In The Market - Forbes
If history provides any guidance, though, continued brinksmanship could be destructive for U.S. stocks, and for global markets. With the U.S. dollar as the world’s reserve currency, and a big chunk of global reserves held in dollar-denominated bills, a default would most definitely send shockwaves through the world’s financial system. If the BPC is right, Obama, Boehner, and the rest of Washington only have a few weeks to back away from the edge of what could be the next financial cataclysm.
 

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
156,720
Reaction score
53,497
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Depends on who you ask... and it's a great way to figure out who's a hack and who's not. Folks who would answer #1 don't really care about the implications of the shutdown. They simply want to point and scream "see? I TOLD you he/they were bad". We see this with every issue. vilification and fear is the focus, not solutions.
 

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
156,720
Reaction score
53,497
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I would have voted for a third option, both. Economic results are of primary importance but knowing who wants to shut down gov to get their way is also important.

Any answer to your second point other than "both" is dishonest.
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,697
Reaction score
5,704
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Any answer to your second point other than "both" is dishonest.

The economic effect is the immediate concern whereas knowing which party wants to use American citizens as pawns in their power play is a long term concern. It is obvious which party that is too. Reps have tried to reopen national parks etc but Dems won't let them. Where is the dishonesty in that?
 
Last edited:

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
156,720
Reaction score
53,497
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The economic effect is the immediate concern whereas knowing which party wants to use American citizens as pawns in their power play is a long term concern. It is obvious which party that is too. Reps have tried to reopen national parks etc but Dems won't let them. Where is the dishonesty in that?

The dishonesty is assuming that only one party is using American citizens as pawns in their power play. Republicans are doing that with Obamacare. If you don't see that both sides are doing it, you are dishonest and present like a hack... as I said in my initial post. Not recognizing "both" is a great indicator for that descriptor.
 

CanadaJohn

Canadian Conservative
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
28,799
Reaction score
20,472
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
So, what's more important? Is it this petty blame game of who shut down the Fed, or the economic effects it's having?
Obama And Boehner's Shutdown Is Destroying Investors' Confidence In The Market - Forbes

From what I've seen, the American dollar has boomed over the past couple of weeks against all major currencies and while there have been a few bumps in the markets, the Dow is doing booming business this morning.

Never forget, in times of economic and financial upheaval, the American dollar and the American stock markets are both the safest havens for money world-wide. Only fools are selling off America now.

This is a political game, nothing more, nothing less. But your country's financial health may depend on how determined Republicans are to keep the pressure on.
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,697
Reaction score
5,704
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The dishonesty is assuming that only one party is using American citizens as pawns in their power play. Republicans are doing that with Obamacare. If you don't see that both sides are doing it, you are dishonest and present like a hack... as I said in my initial post. Not recognizing "both" is a great indicator for that descriptor.

Reps new they would get the blame for a gov shutdown and after last time that was the very last thing they wanted. Dems on the other hand were drooling over the prospect and it is Dems that are trying to make the shut down hurt as much as possible so it is obvious who is using us as pawns.
 

Medusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 9, 2011
Messages
39,861
Reaction score
7,852
Location
Turkey
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
what will happen after this shutdown is more important l think
 

Perotista

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Messages
28,509
Reaction score
20,846
Location
Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The economic effect is the immediate concern whereas knowing which party wants to use American citizens as pawns in their power play is a long term concern. It is obvious which party that is too. Reps have tried to reopen national parks etc but Dems won't let them. Where is the dishonesty in that?

It is said politics is the art of the possible. Both parties have been trudging their way to this situation ever since the election of 2010. Neither wants to cooperate with the other and both parties have a mindset of “MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.” I know this mentality plays great for those die hard Democrats and Republicans. But to govern, politics is a game of compromise, negotiations, give and take between the parties especially with divided government. Each side needs to give a little in order to get a little. This game continues until agreement is reached.

What we have had since 2010 is a House which continues to pass legislation and attach riders, amendments that it knows the Senate won’t pass. So in retaliation Senator Reid tables this legislation or bills without debate or a vote. So the House is peeved that no votes or debates are happening in the Senate and the Senate is peeved at being sent a bunch of bills in which they consider way out of line. The longer this continues, the more peeved each chamber gets at the other. One might even say each now hates the other. Both chambers feel the other is not interested in governing that they are only interested in advancing a political agenda. This sentiment is probably true, but it applies to both chambers.

As to the blame game, any honest person who follows politics knows Republicans will blame Democrats and Democrats will blame Republicans. But where does the independent, that person who does not affiliate or identify with either party fall or blame. Only CNN polled independents and independents only. After all they do at the moment make up 45% of the electorate. On the evening of the 8th of October here is their results. Independents and Independents only.

60% of Indies blamed the Republican Congressional Delegation
59% blamed the Democratic Congressional Delegation
58% blamed President Obama

Can one say a pox on both parties. Just as a reference point, back in 1996 the blame was fixed at 51% on the Republicans and 28% on the Democrats and President Clinton at the time. This time you do not have that huge gap. I think the reason why, especially among independents is they have seen the lack of cooperation between the major parties in an attempt to govern. Each party wants their own way, all of it. If they do not get their way, all 100%, they settle for zero, nothing and block the other party from getting anything they want or deem important.
 

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
156,720
Reaction score
53,497
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Reps new they would get the blame for a gov shutdown and after last time that was the very last thing they wanted. Dems on the other hand were drooling over the prospect and it is Dems that are trying to make the shut down hurt as much as possible so it is obvious who is using us as pawns.

If it was the last thing they wanted, they should have done ANYTHING to not allow it to occur. But they didn't. That's why what you said is absurd.

Both sides used their political agenda to allow this to happen. Both sides are to blame. Both sides are using us as pawns. This is obvious. Not seeing this is looking at it with blinders on.
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,697
Reaction score
5,704
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
It is said politics is the art of the possible. Both parties have been trudging their way to this situation ever since the election of 2010. Neither wants to cooperate with the other and both parties have a mindset of “MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.” I know this mentality plays great for those die hard Democrats and Republicans. But to govern, politics is a game of compromise, negotiations, give and take between the parties especially with divided government. Each side needs to give a little in order to get a little. This game continues until agreement is reached.

What we have had since 2010 is a House which continues to pass legislation and attach riders, amendments that it knows the Senate won’t pass. So in retaliation Senator Reid tables this legislation or bills without debate or a vote. So the House is peeved that no votes or debates are happening in the Senate and the Senate is peeved at being sent a bunch of bills in which they consider way out of line. The longer this continues, the more peeved each chamber gets at the other. One might even say each now hates the other. Both chambers feel the other is not interested in governing that they are only interested in advancing a political agenda. This sentiment is probably true, but it applies to both chambers.

As to the blame game, any honest person who follows politics knows Republicans will blame Democrats and Democrats will blame Republicans. But where does the independent, that person who does not affiliate or identify with either party fall or blame. Only CNN polled independents and independents only. After all they do at the moment make up 45% of the electorate. On the evening of the 8th of October here is their results. Independents and Independents only.

60% of Indies blamed the Republican Congressional Delegation
59% blamed the Democratic Congressional Delegation
58% blamed President Obama

Can one say a pox on both parties. Just as a reference point, back in 1996 the blame was fixed at 51% on the Republicans and 28% on the Democrats and President Clinton at the time. This time you do not have that huge gap. I think the reason why, especially among independents is they have seen the lack of cooperation between the major parties in an attempt to govern. Each party wants their own way, all of it. If they do not get their way, all 100%, they settle for zero, nothing and block the other party from getting anything they want or deem important.

The difference is Reps made an opening offer and asked for negotiations to begin, Dems are the ones that said my way or the highway and refused to talk.
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,697
Reaction score
5,704
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
If it was the last thing they wanted, they should have done ANYTHING to not allow it to occur. But they didn't. That's why what you said is absurd.

Both sides used their political agenda to allow this to happen. Both sides are to blame. Both sides are using us as pawns. This is obvious. Not seeing this is looking at it with blinders on.

By "ANYTHING" you mean give Dems whatever they want. I'm sure you would love that but Reps had to stand firm. We all hate war but sometimes you are forced into it, you can't give an opposing power ANYTHING they want to avoid war. Then again maybe you feel different about that.
 

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
156,720
Reaction score
53,497
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The difference is Reps made an opening offer and asked for negotiations to begin, Dems are the ones that said my way or the highway and refused to talk.

The Reps offer was absurd because it was akin to trying to negotiate with a car they didn't own. We are pawns to their political agenda.
 

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
156,720
Reaction score
53,497
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
By "ANYTHING" you mean give Dems whatever they want. I'm sure you would love that but Reps had to stand firm. We all hate war but sometimes you are forced into it, you can't give an opposing power ANYTHING they want to avoid war. Then again maybe you feel different about that.

There was nothing to "give" the Dems. The bottom line is this. Obamacare is LAW. The Reps don't like that so they are holding the US hostage because of their political agenda. The Dems, for their part, have decided to hold their breath and not discuss any financing issues around Obamacare. Both sides are idiots. It's a shame you can't see it, but it is also expected.
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,697
Reaction score
5,704
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
There was nothing to "give" the Dems. The bottom line is this. Obamacare is LAW. The Reps don't like that so they are holding the US hostage because of their political agenda. The Dems, for their part, have decided to hold their breath and not discuss any financing issues around Obamacare. Both sides are idiots. It's a shame you can't see it, but it is also expected.

"Nothing to give" that says it all.:lol: Obama gave unions exemptions and big business an extra year. Dems could have offered us peons a years grace before the law became mandatory too but apparently they would rather use us as pawns. They also could have made their staff go on obamacare and even gone on it themselves, there was lots to give and the fact that you can't see that shows who has the partisan blinders on.
 

KevinKohler

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 4, 2011
Messages
26,786
Reaction score
12,986
Location
CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
If somebody gets shot, my first concern is their safety and health. IE, the results. Afterwords, though, your damn right I'm gonna want to know the identity of the shooter.
 

aberrant85

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
594
Reaction score
209
Location
SF Bay Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
By "ANYTHING" you mean give Dems whatever they want. I'm sure you would love that but Reps had to stand firm. We all hate war but sometimes you are forced into it, you can't give an opposing power ANYTHING they want to avoid war. Then again maybe you feel different about that.

Dems had no conditions but the status quo. No demands for tax hikes, cap and trade, or gun control. Repubs, on the other hand, have comically attached defunding, delaying, and de-taxing Obamacare, attached contraceptive restrictions, Keystone XL pipeline, drilling permits, and a litany of absurd right-wing demands to their "negotiations" on the CR and debt limit.

Take the country hostage if you want, but they look weak and panicky when they do it but claim the other side is taking us hostage.
 

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
156,720
Reaction score
53,497
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
"Nothing to give" that says it all.:lol: Obama gave unions exemptions and big business an extra year. Dems could have offered us peons a years grace before the law became mandatory too but apparently they would rather use us as pawns. They also could have made their staff go on obamacare and even gone on it themselves, there was lots to give and the fact that you can't see that shows who has the partisan blinders on.

No, as usual, your partisan blinders are glued to your face. You didn't read what I wrote and what I said about the financing issues of Obamacare and how the Dems won't even discuss it. This is, as I said, a dual issue. It's always nice to see how consistent you are, sawyer. I present both sides of the issue, and you only read ONE side of what I write and are incapable of seeing the entirety of the situation. This is defines your partisan blindness. I appreciate you exposing it for everyone so clearly.
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,697
Reaction score
5,704
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
No, as usual, your partisan blinders are glued to your face. You didn't read what I wrote and what I said about the financing issues of Obamacare and how the Dems won't even discuss it. This is, as I said, a dual issue. It's always nice to see how consistent you are, sawyer. I present both sides of the issue, and you only read ONE side of what I write and are incapable of seeing the entirety of the situation. This is defines your partisan blindness. I appreciate you exposing it for everyone so clearly.

Sometimes there is a right and a wrong, a black and a white and your attempting to get the blame squarely off dems by trying to basically use the standard lib line of "so what, everyone does it" is proof of your bias. Facts are facts and the fact is Reps want to negotiate while dems refuse to even talk so this is their shut down, they own it.
 

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
156,720
Reaction score
53,497
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Sometimes there is a right and a wrong, a black and a white and your attempting to get the blame squarely off dems by trying to basically use the standard lib line of "so what, everyone does it" is proof of your bias. Facts are facts and the fact is Reps want to negotiate while dems refuse to even talk so this is their shut down, they own it.

Black and white cases are rare and this isn't one. Those that try to reduce this situation to black or white do so because they are unable to see the blame that their side has. This is precisely what you are doing... and you are doing a great job of showing your partisanship. All you are doing is trying to avoid the fact that the Reps are holding the US hostage because they are still sobbing about losing with Obamacare... both legislatively and judicially. The Reps want to negotiate with something that they don't actually have. The Dems refuse to notice that what they have isn't completely workable and needs to be relooked at. Both sides have dug their heals in and have decided that it is more important to be stick it to the other guy than to care about the population. The fact that you cannot see this demonstrates that you are part of the problem... and with every post you make, you show this more and more strongly.
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,697
Reaction score
5,704
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Black and white cases are rare and this isn't one. Those that try to reduce this situation to black or white do so because they are unable to see the blame that their side has. This is precisely what you are doing... and you are doing a great job of showing your partisanship. All you are doing is trying to avoid the fact that the Reps are holding the US hostage because they are still sobbing about losing with Obamacare... both legislatively and judicially. The Reps want to negotiate with something that they don't actually have. The Dems refuse to notice that what they have isn't completely workable and needs to be relooked at. Both sides have dug their heals in and have decided that it is more important to be stick it to the other guy than to care about the population. The fact that you cannot see this demonstrates that you are part of the problem... and with every post you make, you show this more and more strongly.

I'm talking facts while you spout opinion and once again the fact is Reps have offered to negotiate while Dems have picked up their ball and gone home. The only way you can possibly blame Reps is to say they should just do whatever Dems say and not risk a shut down. Libs like to say obamacare is settled law, get over it while at the same time doing everything they can to change our immigration policy which is also "settled law" so they deed to STFU on that line of BS.
 

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
156,720
Reaction score
53,497
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I'm talking facts while you spout opinion and once again the fact is Reps have offered to negotiate while Dems have picked up their ball and gone home. The only way you can possibly blame Reps is to say they should just do whatever Dems say and not risk a shut down. Libs like to say obamacare is settled law, get over it while at the same time doing everything they can to change our immigration policy which is also "settled law" so they deed to STFU on that line of BS.

You're not talking facts. You're talking rhetoric. The Reps have offered to negotiate with a car they don't own. That's not negotiation, that's dishonesty. Obamacare is law. The Reps don't like that. Too bad. Negotiate current funding issues, not stopping the implementation. By doing the latter, the Reps are holding the US people hostage. Now, of course you can't see this because you are incapable of seeing the blame on your side of the issue. I, of course, have already pointed on the blame on the Dem side. And, your presentation of immigration is a red herring and another matter. Do remember that two wrongs don't make a right.
 
Top Bottom