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What will the rent-seeking class do when the workers run out of money?

Zalatix

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Put aside all the whining about government regulations, taxes on the rich and so forth.

What will happen when workers' wages decline so much against the ever-rising cost of living that most Americans can no longer afford the iCrap, the new car, or even a house?

What will happen when funding for the roads and infrastructure dry up (as it is in the process of doing now) and nobody can afford to drive, much less on the remaining toll roads?

What will happen is the current rent-seeking bubble will pop because nobody will be able to afford to support these parasites.

Such is the inevitable consequences of destroying the social safety net, reducing taxes on the rich, and letting jobs leave the country. You eventually kill your source of economic rents. That's called an economic collapse, folks.
 

AlabamaPaul

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Put aside all the whining about government regulations, taxes on the rich and so forth.

What will happen when workers' wages decline so much against the ever-rising cost of living that most Americans can no longer afford the iCrap, the new car, or even a house?

What will happen when funding for the roads and infrastructure dry up (as it is in the process of doing now) and nobody can afford to drive, much less on the remaining toll roads?

What will happen is the current rent-seeking bubble will pop because nobody will be able to afford to support these parasites.

Such is the inevitable consequences of destroying the social safety net, reducing taxes on the rich, and letting jobs leave the country. You eventually kill your source of economic rents. That's called an economic collapse, folks.

Who will be working to create those things others desire to purchase?
 

ocean515

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Put aside all the whining about government regulations, taxes on the rich and so forth.

What will happen when workers' wages decline so much against the ever-rising cost of living that most Americans can no longer afford the iCrap, the new car, or even a house?

What will happen when funding for the roads and infrastructure dry up (as it is in the process of doing now) and nobody can afford to drive, much less on the remaining toll roads?

What will happen is the current rent-seeking bubble will pop because nobody will be able to afford to support these parasites.

Such is the inevitable consequences of destroying the social safety net, reducing taxes on the rich, and letting jobs leave the country. You eventually kill your source of economic rents. That's called an economic collapse, folks.


So enhancing the social safety net, increasing taxes on the rich, and what, putting a massive tariff on imported goods, will reverse the inevitable?
 

Zalatix

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So enhancing the social safety net, increasing taxes on the rich, and what, putting a massive tariff on imported goods, will reverse the inevitable?
It's not inevitable. Unless we stay our current course, that is.

As for the tariff, don't you worry yourself about that. The only reason why we keep running this massive trade deficit is because foreign countries are propping up the dollar. When that becomes too difficult for them to keep it up, the dollar will collapse. Voila! The price of imported goods skyrockets far beyond affordability, without tariffs!!!
 

specklebang

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Can you please update this parasite:) about the rent seeking bubble? Are rents increasing dramatically? If so, where?

My strategy is that I keep my rents very low because I figure anybody renting probably isn't making very much money. So, to insure that I get paid on the first, I rent way below mrket.

But I do follow the market, both the house value and rents in in my zip code. The house values are easy but the rents data is sporadic.

So, something triggered your headline and I'd appreciate more info and discussion.

Also, why do you have such a pessimistic outlook. I thought things were improving (albeit slowly, very slowly) and gas seems to have stabilized.

Can we talk?


Put aside all the whining about government regulations, taxes on the rich and so forth.

What will happen when workers' wages decline so much against the ever-rising cost of living that most Americans can no longer afford the iCrap, the new car, or even a house?

What will happen when funding for the roads and infrastructure dry up (as it is in the process of doing now) and nobody can afford to drive, much less on the remaining toll roads?

What will happen is the current rent-seeking bubble will pop because nobody will be able to afford to support these parasites.

Such is the inevitable consequences of destroying the social safety net, reducing taxes on the rich, and letting jobs leave the country. You eventually kill your source of economic rents. That's called an economic collapse, folks.
 

AlabamaPaul

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It's not inevitable. Unless we stay our current course, that is.

As for the tariff, don't you worry yourself about that. The only reason why we keep running this massive trade deficit is because foreign countries are propping up the dollar. When that becomes too difficult for them to keep it up, the dollar will collapse. Voila! The price of imported goods skyrockets far beyond affordability, without tariffs!!!

From where do you believe the value of the dollar is derived? Do you believe it is magically set?
 

ocean515

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It's not inevitable. Unless we stay our current course, that is.

As for the tariff, don't you worry yourself about that. The only reason why we keep running this massive trade deficit is because foreign countries are propping up the dollar. When that becomes too difficult for them to keep it up, the dollar will collapse. Voila! The price of imported goods skyrockets far beyond affordability, without tariffs!!!

And here I thought the massive trade deficits were because corporations shipped all the jobs overseas. Something along the lines of "letting jobs leave the country"

So they are letting jobs leave the country so foreign countries can prop up the dollar?
 

Zalatix

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And here I thought the massive trade deficits were because corporations shipped all the jobs overseas. Something along the lines of "letting jobs leave the country"

So they are letting jobs leave the country so foreign countries can prop up the dollar?
Sigh. Really, is that all you know about this? Corporations are indeed at fault for this, but they are only part of the picture.

China and other countries are intentionally lowering their own currencies to make their exports cheap. They are also keeping their wages low in order to attract foreign companies. These foreign countries are also keeping the US dollar propped up so to make exchange rates even more favorable to them.

It behooves China and other countries to get into the US bond market and other things that prop up the US dollar, in order to keep exchange rates low, thereby making imports from China cheaper than goods made here.

As soon as that stops, corporations will be unable to survive AT ALL by importing goods. Basic iPads will rise to $2000 apiece.
 

ocean515

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Sigh. Really, is that all you know about this? Corporations are indeed at fault for this, but they are only part of the picture.

China and other countries are intentionally lowering their own currencies to make their exports cheap. They are also keeping their wages low in order to attract foreign companies. These foreign countries are also keeping the US dollar propped up so to make exchange rates even more favorable to them.

It behooves China and other countries to get into the US bond market and other things that prop up the US dollar, in order to keep exchange rates low, thereby making imports from China cheaper than goods made here.

As soon as that stops, corporations will be unable to survive AT ALL by importing goods. Basic iPads will rise to $2000 apiece.


Sigh. Actually, I know quite a bit about it, as I import subassemblies from a number of asian sources for use in products I manufacture here.

I was just interested to learn how little you know about it.

That socialist log in your eye is blinding you from the truth.

But hey, that's ok, far be it from me to stand in the way of your version of the world.
 

Zalatix

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Can you please update this parasite:) about the rent seeking bubble? Are rents increasing dramatically? If so, where?

My strategy is that I keep my rents very low because I figure anybody renting probably isn't making very much money. So, to insure that I get paid on the first, I rent way below mrket.

But I do follow the market, both the house value and rents in in my zip code. The house values are easy but the rents data is sporadic.

So, something triggered your headline and I'd appreciate more info and discussion.

Also, why do you have such a pessimistic outlook. I thought things were improving (albeit slowly, very slowly) and gas seems to have stabilized.

Can we talk?
First of all, I'm not talking about rents as in renting books or apartments. I'm talking about economic rents, which is a whole different issue. It's the amount of compensation you get that is above and beyond what you would need in order to keep doing what you're doing. Economic rents are also a product of exclusivity conditions, like patents which grant you exclusive control over a product (and thus the theoretical ability to set any price you want). Labor unions are the rentier class if they limit their membership and combine this with inflated wages; but few modern unions meet one condition, much less both. Economic rent is the enemy of perfect competition.

My pessimistic outlook is based on the fact that, above everything else, I have been a worker and an employer, and I see workers making a career now out of job hunting. When I last held a job I just walked in, talked to the local guy, and either got the job or didn't. Now it's like playing Survivor. Companies aren't loyal to their workers but they demand loyalty-to-the-death. They're even controlling what their workers do in their off hours. Job stability is gone. Who the hell can raise a family with no job stability? No wonder our kids are such a wreck.

Near $4 a gallon gasoline is the new normal, **** man, it was under a buck when I last worked for someone else. Everything is going up - food, gasoline, housing, you name it. Wages? Not at all.

This cannot be sustained. It must at some point collapse.
 

Zalatix

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Sigh. Actually, I know quite a bit about it, as I import subassemblies from a number of asian sources for use in products I manufacture here.

I was just interested to learn how little you know about it.

That socialist log in your eye is blinding you from the truth.

But hey, that's ok, far be it from me to stand in the way of your version of the world.
Enough with your petty posturing. You have no counter argument against anything I said. The only thing you understand is the nonsense fed to you by right wing talk radio. You are in no way capable of holding a real conversation about what is going on. You don't know anything. You're just bluffing. Everything I said was perfectly correct and above your ability to argue against.

Don't fool yourself into thinking anyone believes you import anything.
 

Captain Adverse

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Can you please update this parasite:) about the rent seeking bubble? Are rents increasing dramatically? If so, where?

My strategy is that I keep my rents very low because I figure anybody renting probably isn't making very much money. So, to insure that I get paid on the first, I rent way below mrket.

But I do follow the market, both the house value and rents in in my zip code. The house values are easy but the rents data is sporadic.

So, something triggered your headline and I'd appreciate more info and discussion.

Also, why do you have such a pessimistic outlook. I thought things were improving (albeit slowly, very slowly) and gas seems to have stabilized.

Can we talk?

Then you are unique among landlords. Rents in NYC are unconscionable. Rents in Chicago are unrealistic. Rents in Los Angeles are atrocious.

I've lived in all three and seen the changes over the last few years. Sure, if you are willing to buy or rent a car, fight traffic, spend a couple of hours in your commute, pay the higher price for gas, tolls, and parking....you can get a cheaper place somewhere in small-townville. Of course all those added costs in time and expense end up balancing out month after month.

Once upon a time the living expense calculation based on wages suggested housing should take up no more than 1/4 of your monthly salary. Today renting takes betweem 1/3 to 1/2, not inlcuding utilities and other services. Please tell me where you are renting so I can move there and take advantage of it...hopefully its located in a place with actual jobs.
 

specklebang

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Sur. I live in Las Vegas and while my units are in a lower income zip code, it's pretty much the middl of the city and very convenient. I thoroughly agree that housing should be about 25% of net income.

I studied many US cities in 1973 and chose Las Vegas for opportunity. I still feel the same way although I'm retired and not as keen on local economics as I was. As for jobs, depends on skills. My son is a programmer and he seems to have no trouble finding decent (not great) employment. Las Vegas has a low cost of living and very decent weather (well, not right now @ 117 but most of the year).



Then you are unique among landlords. Rents in NYC are unconscionable. Rents in Chicago are unrealistic. Rents in Los Angeles are atrocious.

I've lived in all three and seen the changes over the last few years. Sure, if you are willing to buy or rent a car, fight traffic, spend a couple of hours in your commute, pay the higher price for gas, tolls, and parking....you can get a cheaper place somewhere in small-townville. Of course all those added costs in time and expense end up balancing out month after month.

Once upon a time the living expense calculation based on wages suggested housing should take up no more than 1/4 of your monthly salary. Today renting takes betweem 1/3 to 1/2, not inlcuding utilities and other services. Please tell me where you are renting so I can move there and take advantage of it...hopefully its located in a place with actual jobs.
 

specklebang

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Thank you for the reasonable response. I did misunderstand the term.

The adversarial divide between employers and employees has ben around since the 90s. Makes job hunting tough unless you have a desirable skill-set. My son took Computer Science and has done very well. Worked at Yucca Mtn. for 15 years until Harry Reid shut it down. The NV Power and now UNLV. So, its still individual circumstances.

Yes, I remember 19¢ gas. But I lived in Korea in 1963-65 and 1969-74 and gas was $4 US a gallon then. That's like $40 a gallon in todays money. And yet.....

It should collapse but it won't. There is no alternative. Fiat currency will expand, circulate, float upwards. More will be made. Etc.



First of all, I'm not talking about rents as in renting books or apartments. I'm talking about economic rents, which is a whole different issue. It's the amount of compensation you get that is above and beyond what you would need in order to keep doing what you're doing. Economic rents are also a product of exclusivity conditions, like patents which grant you exclusive control over a product (and thus the theoretical ability to set any price you want). Labor unions are the rentier class if they limit their membership and combine this with inflated wages; but few modern unions meet one condition, much less both. Economic rent is the enemy of perfect competition.

My pessimistic outlook is based on the fact that, above everything else, I have been a worker and an employer, and I see workers making a career now out of job hunting. When I last held a job I just walked in, talked to the local guy, and either got the job or didn't. Now it's like playing Survivor. Companies aren't loyal to their workers but they demand loyalty-to-the-death. They're even controlling what their workers do in their off hours. Job stability is gone. Who the hell can raise a family with no job stability? No wonder our kids are such a wreck.

Near $4 a gallon gasoline is the new normal, **** man, it was under a buck when I last worked for someone else. Everything is going up - food, gasoline, housing, you name it. Wages? Not at all.

This cannot be sustained. It must at some point collapse.
 

ocean515

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Enough with your petty posturing. You have no counter argument against anything I said. The only thing you understand is the nonsense fed to you by right wing talk radio. You are in no way capable of holding a real conversation about what is going on. You don't know anything. You're just bluffing. Everything I said was perfectly correct and above your ability to argue against.

Don't fool yourself into thinking anyone believes you import anything.

:lamo

As I note you are now reduced to the inevitable put down, I'll leave you to underscore the well deserved stereotype that haunts you folks.

:applaud
 

Zalatix

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Thank you for the reasonable response. I did misunderstand the term.

The adversarial divide between employers and employees has ben around since the 90s. Makes job hunting tough unless you have a desirable skill-set. My son took Computer Science and has done very well. Worked at Yucca Mtn. for 15 years until Harry Reid shut it down. The NV Power and now UNLV. So, its still individual circumstances.

Yes, I remember 19¢ gas. But I lived in Korea in 1963-65 and 1969-74 and gas was $4 US a gallon then. That's like $40 a gallon in todays money. And yet.....

It should collapse but it won't. There is no alternative. Fiat currency will expand, circulate, float upwards. More will be made. Etc.
Even if you have a desirable skill-set, as you said, your son earns a decent but not great paycheck. This is because his employer could outsource programmer work to cheap labor overseas, and is using this quietly lurking threat to force workers to accept lower wages. Previously to offshoring, your son would be pulling in a king's ransom compared to now.

Our economy is bifurcating - growing toward a pattern of a handful of good paying jobs and a ton of low-paying jobs, with middle class jobs disappearing.

As for the system not collapsing... well, I am not sure how it will survive when the fiat currency that is being pumped into the system, isn't going to the consumer/working class.

:lamo

As I note you are now reduced to the inevitable put down, I'll leave you to underscore the well deserved stereotype that haunts you folks.

:applaud
Translation: you got back what you dished out, and now you're reduced to complaining. Weak.

The trade deficit is fueled by foreign governments engaging in competitive devaluation while propping up the US dollar, as well as by American corporations seeking economic rents here while looking for cheap labor abroad. That is the truth about our trade deficit and you have no counter argument. But, like everyone else who has trashed talked me on this issue, you do have a lot of bluster! Have a nice day! :2wave:

Please, feel free to come back and rant about how you know more than me when it comes to the trade deficit, without offering a shred of information to back that up... well, except "well I know the truth and you don't!" :lamo
 

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Economics is not a zero sum game.
Only because of fiat currency. The earth's limited resources dictate that it is a zero-sum game. Unless you believe in sorcery...
 

specklebang

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That's the point I'm trying to make. My son, such a nice useful example, watched his job effectively outsourced and went and got another job. He won't make a King's Ransom. As a matter of fact, what impact would King's Ransoms have on the economy?

Let's imagine that every middle class worker gets a 50% pay raise. Sounds good but at the same time, you would see inflation spiral out of control. My son is itching to buy useless crap. He dreams of a Corvette, a car so impractical that it defies all reason. But wanting and getting are different things.

Don't get me wrong. I wish middle-classidness on everyone. But thats not going to happen as we integrate into the global economy. We are actually doing better than I would expect considering the American inability to comprehend changing times.

Out of curiosity, how much does a good paying job pay (with a location for context since costs of living vary widely in the US. Can you give me a figure for discussion sake?



Even if you have a desirable skill-set, as you said, your son earns a decent but not great paycheck. This is because his employer could outsource programmer work to cheap labor overseas, and is using this quietly lurking threat to force workers to accept lower wages. Previously to offshoring, your son would be pulling in a king's ransom compared to now.

Our economy is bifurcating - growing toward a pattern of a handful of good paying jobs and a ton of low-paying jobs, with middle class jobs disappearing.

As for the system not collapsing... well, I am not sure how it will survive when the fiat currency that is being pumped into the system, isn't going to the consumer/working class.
 

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It's not inevitable. Unless we stay our current course, that is.

As for the tariff, don't you worry yourself about that. The only reason why we keep running this massive trade deficit is because foreign countries are propping up the dollar. When that becomes too difficult for them to keep it up, the dollar will collapse. Voila! The price of imported goods skyrockets far beyond affordability, without tariffs!!!

That sounds like a positive state of affairs. Earlier you were complaining about moving jobs abroad. The skyrocketing costs of imported goods would serve to bring manufacturing back home. That would restore American jobs. Good news, huh? Let's hear it for the weak dollar!!
 

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Put aside all the whining about government regulations, taxes on the rich and so forth.

What will happen when workers' wages decline so much against the ever-rising cost of living that most Americans can no longer afford the iCrap, the new car, or even a house?

What will happen when funding for the roads and infrastructure dry up (as it is in the process of doing now) and nobody can afford to drive, much less on the remaining toll roads?

What will happen is the current rent-seeking bubble will pop because nobody will be able to afford to support these parasites.

Such is the inevitable consequences of destroying the social safety net, reducing taxes on the rich, and letting jobs leave the country. You eventually kill your source of economic rents. That's called an economic collapse, folks.

1. Real income hasn't declined so with the current trend, the point at which they'll decline to the point where they can't buy iCrap is never.

2. People would rather buy iCrap than food or clothing. The biggest reason people have so much credit card debt isn't because of rent or groceries or utility bills.
 

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Only because of fiat currency. The earth's limited resources dictate that it is a zero-sum game. Unless you believe in sorcery...

Fiat has nothing to do with it. Speed is the key. GDP is a measure of speed, not quantity. How often does a dollar change hands? That's what matters.
 

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Only because of fiat currency. The earth's limited resources dictate that it is a zero-sum game. Unless you believe in sorcery...

Let me help you understand the truth here, Zalatix. I know some people actually believe that economics is a zero-sum game, but it is impossible for that to be true. The concept of a zero-sum game is that for one person to be a dollar richer, someone else has to be a dollar poorer because there is a finite amount of "wealth" and it's "distribution" is what determines richer or poorer.

For that to be true, the aggregate wealth today would be exactly the same as the aggregate wealth from 100 years ago.... 500 years ago.... 2000 years ago.... 10,000 years ago. Clearly that's not the case.

OK, so you think fiat currency has us all fooled. That's incorrect, too, because fiat currency is a representation and trading unit of production. Wealth is merely excess production. You take a piece of property and build something on it, you have increased your wealth (providing what you built has value). You cut a tree branch and bend it and tie a string on each end and you made a bow. if you can trade that to someone else for a bag of wheat, you made yourself wealthier. The guy that raised the wheat made himself wealthier.

You look around at the highways, bridges, computer infrastructure, airports, oceanliners, homes, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. and it's a lot of wealth. If all you saw when you looked around were caves and burned out campfires because humans had no more wealth than they started out with, then you would have an argument that you might be right about economics being a zero-sum game.
 
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