What To Do About Greece ??

[Fenton]

Paul Krugman weighed in on this two hours ago and shows the math behind conceding to the EU demands. The result is about another 3% reduction in Greek GDP which then causes a 5% rise in the debt:GDP ratio.

Krugmans a moron.

I wonder if he will be writing a check to the Greek people when their Banks go under ?

 

[t4pi0k4]

No, it isn't "dangerous for us all." The Greek economy is about the size of Miami's economy and size of their debt is small compared to Europe's GDP. The threat is that if Greece leaves the Euro and escapes paying its debts, other countries, like Spain and Italy, will do the same, putting an end to the EU. I think that Greece will leave but the cost of leaving for the other nations is too high.

I agree with you!
besides, there might be a silver lining to this situation since historically, the major european breakthroughs institutionwise were born out of a crisis! So there is hope that something good will come out of it! and we might have to thank the Greeks for it! ;p

 

[MTAtech]

Krugmans a moron.

I wonder if he will be writing a check to the Greek people when their Banks go under ?

A moron, huh? Is that the best counter-argument you've got? At least he knows how to use contractions. You, not so much.

 

[Fenton]

A moron, huh? Is that the best counter-argument you've got? At least he knows how to use contractions. You, not so much.

Lol !

You criticizing my lack of a counter argument by turning into a grammar nazi is a bit ironic, don't you think ?

And yes, Krugman is a moron.

He's a hack, and ideologue who's solution for the Greek people is sending them into absolute insolvency.

ANYONE who thinks its better for Greece to leave the EU than paying back its debts is a Moron.

People that blame " austerity " for this crisis or the Banks are Morons.

People that claim that the way out of a debt crisis is to borrow and spend MORE are Morons.

Sorry, but that's just the truth. When Greece leaves the EU they'll be forced to create their own currency while NOT having access to the Bond markets.

It will be Argentina 2001 but much much worse.

 

[MMC]

I'm going to let you stay up all night worrying about this.

I didn't create this mess and I don't see it as my problem, as a matter of fact I expect to make a little money off of higher exchange rates for the U.S. Dollar.

Heya SN. :2wave: Putin sees it another way. European Disunity he sees as a good thing.


Russia Taking Full Advantage Of Greek Crisis.....


In the meantime, the turmoil offers an opportunity for Russia to advance its interests. Of course, the EU is an absolutely critical trading partner for Russia, so if the bloc starts to fray at the seams, that presents financial risks to an already struggling Russian economy. Russia’s central bank governor Elvira Nabiulllina warned in June of the brewing threat that a Greek default would have on Russia. “We do consider that scenario as one of possible risks which would increase turbulence in the financial markets in the European market, bearing in mind the fact the European Union is one of major trading partners, and we are definitely worried by it,” she said in an interview with CNBC.

With the economic fallout in mind, Russia does see strategic opportunities in growing discord within Europe. First, Russia is pushing its Turkish Stream Pipeline, a natural gas pipeline that it has proposed that would run from Russia through Turkey and link up in Greece. From there, Russian gas would travel on to the rest of Europe. Russia is vying against a separate pipeline project that would send natural gas from the Caspian Sea through Turkey and on to Europe.

In mid-June, Alexis Tsipras met with Russian President Vladimir Putin at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum. Russia and Greece signed a memorandum following the meeting to push the project forward. Russia’s energy minister Alexander Novak emphasized that Gazprom would not own the section of the pipeline on Greek territory, a crucial fact that avoids heavy antitrust scrutiny from EU regulators. With an eye on the looming default, Russia agreed to finance the project, and Greek officials portrayed the project as economic assistance amidst its ongoing debt crisis.....snip~

Yahoo!

 

[Andalublue]

Lol !

You criticizing my lack of a counter argument by turning into a grammar nazi is a bit ironic, don't you think ?

And yes, Krugman is a moron.

He's a hack, and ideologue who's solution for the Greek people is sending them into absolute insolvency.

ANYONE who thinks its better for Greece to leave the EU than paying back its debts is a Moron.

People that blame " austerity " for this crisis or the Banks are Morons.

People that claim that the way out of a debt crisis is to borrow and spend MORE are Morons.

Sorry, but that's just the truth. When Greece leaves the EU they'll be forced to create their own currency while NOT having access to the Bond markets.

It will be Argentina 2001 but much much worse.

For someone who likes to throw around the sobriquet 'moron' as much as you do, I'd have expected that your own posts wouldn't have been so entirely lacking in economic arguments, rational debating points or insightful analysis of Greek/European recent history. It's a bit of a moron's game calling everyone else a moron but showing yourself to be as educated as a six-year-old.

 

[shrubnose]

Heya SN. :2wave:

Putin sees it another way. European Disunity he sees as a good thing.

Russia Taking Full Advantage Of Greek Crisis.....


In the meantime, the turmoil offers an opportunity for Russia to advance its interests. Of course, the EU is an absolutely critical trading partner for Russia, so if the bloc starts to fray at the seams, that presents financial risks to an already struggling Russian economy. Russia’s central bank governor Elvira Nabiulllina warned in June of the brewing threat that a Greek default would have on Russia. “We do consider that scenario as one of possible risks which would increase turbulence in the financial markets in the European market, bearing in mind the fact the European Union is one of major trading partners, and we are definitely worried by it,” she said in an interview with CNBC.

With the economic fallout in mind, Russia does see strategic opportunities in growing discord within Europe. First, Russia is pushing its Turkish Stream Pipeline, a natural gas pipeline that it has proposed that would run from Russia through Turkey and link up in Greece. From there, Russian gas would travel on to the rest of Europe. Russia is vying against a separate pipeline project that would send natural gas from the Caspian Sea through Turkey and on to Europe.

In mid-June, Alexis Tsipras met with Russian President Vladimir Putin at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum. Russia and Greece signed a memorandum following the meeting to push the project forward. Russia’s energy minister Alexander Novak emphasized that Gazprom would not own the section of the pipeline on Greek territory, a crucial fact that avoids heavy antitrust scrutiny from EU regulators. With an eye on the looming default, Russia agreed to finance the project, and Greek officials portrayed the project as economic assistance amidst its ongoing debt crisis.....snip~

Yahoo!

This is one of the many reasons why Greece and the EU will hammer out an agreement which will keep Greece on the Euro.

Wait and see.

No one is going to starve in Greece. Greece isn't Biafra.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Compared to us, Greeks are really good with money.
Grecian Burn - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central

 

[MMC]

This is one of the many reasons why Greece and the EU will hammer out an agreement which will keep Greece on the Euro.

Wait and see.

No one is going to starve in Greece. Greece isn't Biafra.

I don't know about that SN. Seems like those in Southern Europe are the ones that keep getting screwed with the EU. That would be Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain.

 

[Fenton]

For someone who likes to throw around the sobriquet 'moron' as much as you do, I'd have expected that your own posts wouldn't have been so entirely lacking in economic arguments, rational debating points or insightful analysis of Greek/European recent history. It's a bit of a moron's game calling everyone else a moron but showing yourself to be as educated as a six-year-old.

Moronic is borrowing and spending your self into insolvency.

 

[KLATTU]

Greece should immediately enact 3 measure.

1) drastically increase the minimum wage. This way, people will have more money to spend. Businesses will grow. And we all know from studies. Raising the minimum wage does not have an adverse affect on employment.

2) Dramatically increase Government spending. Greece's infrastructure is crumbling.

3) Increase taxes on the rich. Inequality in Greece is at a staggering level.

 

[Andalublue]

Moronic is borrowing and spending your self into insolvency.

You mean like the global banking sector did prior to 2008?

 

[MTAtech]

An additional view from the Nobel economist Fenton calls a moron (except he makes a lot of sense):

Excerpt:

...
Would Greek exit from the euro work as well as Iceland’s highly successful devaluation in 2008-09, or Argentina’s abandonment of its one-peso-one-dollar policy in 2001-02? Maybe not — but consider the alternatives. Unless Greece receives really major debt relief, and possibly even then, leaving the euro offers the only plausible escape route from its endless economic nightmare.

And let’s be clear: if Greece ends up leaving the euro, it won’t mean that the Greeks are bad Europeans. Greece’s debt problem reflected irresponsible lending as well as irresponsible borrowing, and in any case the Greeks have paid for their government’s sins many times over. If they can’t make a go of Europe’s common currency, it’s because that common currency offers no respite for countries in trouble. The important thing now is to do whatever it takes to end the bleeding.
...

 

[gdgyva]

Greece should immediately enact 3 measure.

1) drastically increase the minimum wage. This way, people will have more money to spend. Businesses will grow. And we all know from studies. Raising the minimum wage does not have an adverse affect on employment.

2) Dramatically increase Government spending. Greece's infrastructure is crumbling.

3) Increase taxes on the rich. Inequality in Greece is at a staggering level.

raising the minimum wage?

businesses cant stay open as it is

According to a study by the Small Enterprises’ Institute of the Hellenic Confederation of Professionals, Craftsmen and Merchants (IME-GSEVEE), one in two businesses employing up to 49 people are in danger of closing in the coming months, with balance sheets most notably hit by reduced turnover and higher debts to insurance companies, Greek tax offices and banks.

Two-thirds of small businesses surveyed said turnover fell in the first half of 2013, notably 81.7 percent very small businesses. The average reduction in turnover amounted to 22.9 percent less than the same period in 2012. Since the start of the Greek financial crisis five years ago, turnover has tumbled 65 percent.

Close to half of businesses surveyed (47.1 percent) foresaw an imminent risk of closure in the near future are around, with 40 percent expecting to wind down within six months. The closure rate remains persistently high, and 200,000 businesses have now folded during the crisis. IME-GSEVEE estimates that another 27,000 to 30,000 will cease operations this year.

The biggest chunk of the businesses’ delayed payments is owed as insurance contributions (about 40 percent), as over 370,000 companies are revealed not to having paid their obligations to the Freelancers’ Insurance Organization (OAEE). Significant debts are also owing to state-owned enterprises (34.9 percent) and tax offices (32.7 percent), while the non-performing or delayed loans to banks amount to 28.1 percent.

Half of Small Greek Businesses on Brink of Closure | GreekReporter.com

the entire economy is shutting down

the country is in major trouble

 

[Fenton]

Thought this was interesting...

The Island of the Blind.

'Island of the Blind' Riles Greek Public - WSJ

 

[blackjack50]

Shut it down? Gold standard until it can recover? Barter system? Make laws to bring in jobs and tourism and trade? This is a cluster, and since it isn't a company it can just shutter its doors can it?

 

[KLATTU]

raising the minimum wage?

businesses cant stay open as it is

According to a study by the Small Enterprises’ Institute of the Hellenic Confederation of Professionals, Craftsmen and Merchants (IME-GSEVEE), one in two businesses employing up to 49 people are in danger of closing in the coming months, with balance sheets most notably hit by reduced turnover and higher debts to insurance companies, Greek tax offices and banks.

Two-thirds of small businesses surveyed said turnover fell in the first half of 2013, notably 81.7 percent very small businesses. The average reduction in turnover amounted to 22.9 percent less than the same period in 2012. Since the start of the Greek financial crisis five years ago, turnover has tumbled 65 percent.

Close to half of businesses surveyed (47.1 percent) foresaw an imminent risk of closure in the near future are around, with 40 percent expecting to wind down within six months. The closure rate remains persistently high, and 200,000 businesses have now folded during the crisis. IME-GSEVEE estimates that another 27,000 to 30,000 will cease operations this year.

The biggest chunk of the businesses’ delayed payments is owed as insurance contributions (about 40 percent), as over 370,000 companies are revealed not to having paid their obligations to the Freelancers’ Insurance Organization (OAEE). Significant debts are also owing to state-owned enterprises (34.9 percent) and tax offices (32.7 percent), while the non-performing or delayed loans to banks amount to 28.1 percent.

Half of Small Greek Businesses on Brink of Closure | GreekReporter.com

the entire economy is shutting down

the country is in major trouble

that was satire. those ideas seem so absurd, don't they? yet they are a central part of almost every democrat's agenda. I guess the laws of economics somehow disappear once you leave the Us??

 

[Fenton]

Some good news...

Greek Finance minister resigns..
Greece debt crisis: Finance Minister Varoufakis resigns - BBC News

 

[PoS]

An additional view from the Nobel economist Fenton calls a moron (except he makes a lot of sense):

Excerpt:

Um, Krugman leaves out a lot of stuff in his columns just to make himself look like an economic genius. For example, in the article about Iceland Krugman doesnt mention that that island country has only about 300K inhabitants and is a miniscule economy compared to Greece, nor does he mention that Iceland imposed draconian capital controls that prohibits any sort of investment outside the country by its inhabitants nor does he mention the bank collapses there. And the Argentina link he puts up was dated in 2007 and the fact is Argentina's economy contracted this year and has 40% inflation and they defaulted again last year.

To those that are too dumb to read between the lines, yeah Krugman must seem like a really sensible guy and we should approve his every suggestion...

 

[MMC]

Currently more want Greece to stay in.....but it is close for those wanting them out.



Here's How Many Europeans Want Greece To Leave.....

Statista data journalist Niall McCarthy has just released a compelling infographic explaining how many Europeans want a "Grexit."

The numbers, sourced from a YouGov poll, are broken down by country. Germany leads the pack with 53 percent of respondents preferring a Greece exit from the Eurozone, with Finland and Denmark not far behind.

Of the countries included in this poll, France is the least excited about a Grexit. Thirty-three percent of respondents want the beleaguered nation to leave the Euro, while more -- 36 percent -- want it to stay.....snip~

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-many-europeans-want-greece-125823359.html

 

[MTAtech]

Um, Krugman leaves out a lot of stuff in his columns just to make himself look like an economic genius. For example, in the article about Iceland Krugman doesnt mention that that island country has only about 300K inhabitants and is a miniscule economy compared to Greece, nor does he mention that Iceland imposed draconian capital controls that prohibits any sort of investment outside the country by its inhabitants nor does he mention the bank collapses there. And the Argentina link he puts up was dated in 2007 and the fact is Argentina's economy contracted this year and has 40% inflation and they defaulted again last year.

To those that are too dumb to read between the lines, yeah Krugman must seem like a really sensible guy and we should approve his every suggestion...

A columnist writes a column, which is 600 words. It's not a book. Moreover, both "Iceland" and "Argentina" were mentioned in exactly one sentence. This one:

Would Greek exit from the euro work as well as Iceland’s highly successful devaluation in 2008-09, or Argentina’s abandonment of its one-peso-one-dollar policy in 2001-02?

That's why Dr. Krugman augments his columns with his Times blog. Here are blog posts he wrote about Iceland:

[h=3]The Times Does Iceland[/h]
[h=3]The FT Does Iceland[/h]
[h=3]Iceland Videos[/h]
[h=3]Iceland Exits[/h]
[h=3]Iceland-Ireland Again[/h]
[h=3]Bloomberg on the Icelandic Miracle[/h]
[h=3]The Icelandic Post-crisis Miracle[/h]
[h=3]The plot against Iceland[/h]

 

[Andalublue]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-many-europeans-want-greece-125823359.html

As your graphic makes plain, it's not the Greeks, but the Germans who are out of step with the rest of Europe.

 

[MTAtech]

Greece referendum result and the meaning of debt - Business Insider

...
From the beginning, Merkel and the EU have operated from the position that because Greece took on debt, Greece now needs to pay it back. That position assumed — bizarrely, in hindsight — that debt works only one way: If you lend someone money, that money is repaid.
But that is NOT how free markets work.


Debt is not a guarantee of future payments in full. Rather, it is a risk that creditors take, in hopes of maybe being paid tomorrow.
The key word there is "risk."


If you're willing to take the risk, you'll get a premium — in the form of interest.


But the downside of that risk is that you lose your money. And Greece just called Germany's bluff.
...

 

[Chagos]

Currently more want Greece to stay in.....but it is close for those wanting them out.



Here's How Many Europeans Want Greece To Leave.....

Statista data journalist Niall McCarthy has just released a compelling infographic explaining how many Europeans want a "Grexit."

The numbers, sourced from a YouGov poll, are broken down by country. Germany leads the pack with 53 percent of respondents preferring a Greece exit from the Eurozone, with Finland and Denmark not far behind.

Of the countries included in this poll, France is the least excited about a Grexit. Thirty-three percent of respondents want the beleaguered nation to leave the Euro, while more -- 36 percent -- want it to stay.....snip~

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-many-europeans-want-greece-125823359.html

Very nice.

Of the 7 countries depicted, 4 are not even in the common currency zone.

 

[Chagos]

Greece referendum result and the meaning of debt - Business Insider

From the beginning, Merkel and the EU have operated from the position that because Greece took on debt, Greece now needs to pay it back. That position assumed — bizarrely, in hindsight — that debt works only one way: If you lend someone money, that money is repaid.
But that is NOT how free markets work.


Debt is not a guarantee of future payments in full. Rather, it is a risk that creditors take, in hopes of maybe being paid tomorrow.
The key word there is "risk."


If you're willing to take the risk, you'll get a premium — in the form of interest.


But the downside of that risk is that you lose your money. And Greece just called Germany's bluff.
...

What have free markets to do with anything here, seeing how exactly those were not going to give a morsel of stale bread for Greece's junk bonds anymore?

I totally share Trichet's outrage of the time but that's got nothing to do with anything either by now.

BI shares the general confusion on there not being a difference between international free markets and the Eurozone. The latter has rules that Greece signed.

The rest of the article is equally ill-informed on many points but I won't go into that here, not even why others can collect taxes where Greece clearly cannot.