What other flags and symbols could Southerners use? [W: 165]

[SheWolf]

Without the civil war, there's no united tradition between the southern states.

This is probably very true, but some of the southern states are also very religious and conservative. It's called the Bible Belt.

 

[polgara]

Because we want one.

What's it to you?

Greetings, Gathomass88. :2wave:

In 1893, by an act of Congress, the National Gettysburg Park Commission was formed. Today, millions of people, including many from around the world, visit the historical battlefields of the Civil War, and every Summer, there are re-enactments in Pennsylvania, Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, Texas, Florida, and other States that draw thousands of participants and spectators. This is part of our country's history!

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

This isn't really true. The south, as in, the general southeast area, does have similar cultural identity, even if it varies between states and regions. Just like the northeast has a specific culture surrounding it, and the midwest, and west, every part of the country, really.

Also, I'm really tired of people just bashing the south. Yeah, we have our problems, just like the rest of the country, but we aren't more screwed up than other parts of the country. The people down here are great, the food is amazing, the weather is awesome, etc; there are many parts of southern culture that are worthwhile and hold value. The people who grew up and live in the south don't deserve to be disrespected and belittled like this.

Yes, but the historical South covers more than the Southeast. This is what I mean.

The South objectively has more problems overall than the rest of the country does. Financial, health, crime, education -- the South overall struggles tremendously in all of them and more, even being the home of places that win the dubious honor of "worst in the developed world" for a number of things, including mother/infant mortality and social mobility.

I never said Southerners weren't nice, or didn't have good food. The weather in the Southeast isn't to my taste, but to each their own.

But none of this has anything to do with the fact that the South has very serious problems which, from an overall perspective, are more serious and more numerous than the rest of the country. That is simply the reality of the matter. And in my opinion, good food doesn't make up for an astonishingly bad mother mortality rate.

And I wish Americans in general were more willing to talk about the problems in the country. It's always got to be "rah-rah USA, we're the best," even when we're NOT the best, and in fact are badly under-performing compared to our competitors. Americans in general do that, and in the North too. And that is the REASON it never gets any better: everyone prioritizes feeling good about themselves above actually doing good work.

Just because I'm from Minnesota doesn't mean I wasn't going to call Michelle Bachmann the psycho she is, and call for her to be held responsible for protecting violent bigots committing hate crimes. Is it kind of embarrassing that she's from my birth state, which is generally known for being above this kind of insanity? Yeah. But she is, and to pretend like she wasn't there would be childish. She caused us to have within our borders the highest gay teen suicide district in the entire country. I can't ignore that.

And I don't understand why Southerners -- and Americans on the whole -- can't just address their problems. I don't understand why it's more important for everyone to get to feel good about nothing, than it is to actually do something.

 

[Your Star]

Without the civil war, there's no united tradition between the southern states.

That just isn't true. There are similar traditions, foods, religion, cultural attitudes, folklore, music, etc, that bind the south together. Just like every other region. I'm not denying the civil war didn't affect the culture, of both the north and the south, but it is just not true to claim that the civil war is the main binding point for the region.

 

[Gathomas88]

A) Kentucky actually fought for the Union.

Frankly, even today, they're not really a part of the "South," proper.

B) While there is a bit of a stereotype concerning Southerners and fried chicken, it isn't so much with the same demographic that would typically be interested in flying a Confederate flag.

Sooo... Ya know...

:lol:

 

[Gathomas88]

But none of this has anything to do with the fact that the South has very serious problems which, from an overall perspective, are more serious and more numerous than the rest of the country. That is simply the reality of the matter. And in my opinion, good food doesn't make up for an astonishingly bad mother mortality rate.

Well... Yea. The region was basically burned to the ground just as it was starting to industrialize, and then treated like the United States' forgotten backwater for the next century. It also had the social and political fallout of slavery to work through.

Something of a developmental "lag" has a tendency to develop out of such circumstances. :shrug:

It's one of the fastest growing regions in the country today, however.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Well... Yea. The region was basically burned to the ground just as it it was starting to industrialize, and then basically treated as a backwater for the next century. It also had the social and political fallout of slavery to work through.

Such things kind of have a tendency to develop out of such circumstances. :shrug:

Ok. And how is complaining about that going to help you improve in the future?

That was 150 years ago. Germany was practically bombed to the ground and sanctioned within an inch of its life less than 100 years ago. Today it basically holds together the entire EU.

Put on your big boy boots and just deal with the problems in front of you. While I am sure many are more than happy to talk about the social implications of all that, I am only willing to with a South that has come to the table and decided to stop sticking its head in the sand about its endless multitude of serious problems. If you want to present it to me as an excuse for why you will continue to do nothing, I am simply not interested.

 

[Your Star]

Yes, but the historical South covers more than the Southeast. This is what I mean.

The South objectively has more problems overall than the rest of the country does. Financial, health, crime, education -- the South overall struggles tremendously in all of them and more, even being the home of places that win the dubious honor of "worst in the developed world" for a number of things, including mother/infant mortality and social mobility.

I never said Southerners weren't nice, or didn't have good food. The weather in the Southeast isn't to my taste, but to each their own.

But none of this has anything to do with the fact that the South has very serious problems which, from an overall perspective, are more serious and more numerous than the rest of the country. That is simply the reality of the matter. And in my opinion, good food doesn't make up for an astonishingly bad mother mortality rate.

And I wish Americans in general were more willing to talk about the problems in the country. It's always got to be "rah-rah USA, we're the best," even when we're NOT the best, and in fact are badly under-performing compared to our competitors. Americans in general do that, and in the North too. And that is the REASON it never gets any better: everyone prioritizes feeling good about themselves above actually doing good work.

Just because I'm from Minnesota doesn't mean I wasn't going to call Michelle Bachmann the psycho she is, and call for her to be held responsible for protecting violent bigots committing hate crimes. Is it kind of embarrassing that she's from my birth state, which is generally known for being above this kind of insanity? Yeah. But she is, and to pretend like she wasn't there would be childish. She caused us to have within our borders the highest gay teen suicide district in the entire country. I can't ignore that.

And I don't understand why Southerners -- and Americans on the whole -- can't just address their problems. I don't understand why it's more important for everyone to get to feel good about nothing, than it is to actually do something.

I'm not saying we don't have serious problems, we do, and I do feel embarrassed for some of the things Georgia does, and you know I've had no problems talking about the issues with the area I call home. Hell, I experienced the bad end of a good portion of our social problems down here because I am gay. I do agree with pretty much everything you said here. I'm not saying that we should feel good about nothing, I'm just saying I think the south gets unfairly criticized. We are the butt of many a joke, and a lot of people think we are some backwoods place with no redeeming qualities and that the people are nothing but stupid racist, assholes. It just seems excessive and doesn't do anything to help our problems either.

 

[Your Star]

This one is much more southern. :2razz:

 

[Gathomas88]

Ok. And how is complaining about that going to help you improve in the future?

That was 150 years ago. Germany was practically bombed to the ground and sanctioned within an inch of its life less than 100 years ago. Today it basically holds together the entire EU.

Put on your big boy boots and just deal with the problems in front of you. While I am sure many are more than happy to talk about the social implications of all that, I am only willing to do with a South that has come to the table and decided to stop sticking its head in the sand about its endless multitude of serious problems. If you want to present it to me as an excuse for why you will continue to do nothing, I am simply not interested.

Germany was a mono-ethnic industrial powerhouse which had the benefit of two Superpowers funneling a metric **** ton of money into rebuilding what the Second World War destroyed. The South, by way of contrast, was a mostly agrarian society, which had its primary industry pretty much flat out removed from play by the Emancipation Proclamation, got a rather half-assed (and in some cases, outright spiteful) attempt at "Reconstruction" at best, and then had to sort out the problems inherent to having basically one half of its population being largely unwilling, or unable, to work with the other due to the cultural and economic barriers that sprung up in the wake of institutionalized slavery's end.

It wasn't quite the same thing. Frankly, in case you haven't noticed, most former slave societies have tended to run afoul of the same kinds of economic and social problems faced by the American South. That's a large part of the reason why huge swaths of Latin America are so fundamentally screwed up.

In any eventuality, however, no one's making "excuses." As I already said, in terms of population and economy, the modern Southeast is one of the fastest growing regions in the country. We're behind, but we're catching up.

 

[Paschendale]

Again, what on Earth are you people getting so prissy about?

Is the idea of a unique Southern identity really that threatening? Like... What's up with the authoritarian push for conformism, man? Lol

No, it's the way that the south keeps dragging the rest of the country down that we're upset about.

 

[TurtleDude]

No, it's the way that the south keeps dragging the rest of the country down that we're upset about.

as opposed to say Chicago and DC? have any southern cities or states declared bankruptcy?

 

[Gathomas88]

No, it's the way that the south keeps dragging the rest of the country down that we're upset about.

You seen Detroit lately? :lol:

I don't know if you've noticed or not, but the South is actually catching up with the rest of the country in many regards, while some of the old powerhouse regions - a.k.a. the "rust belt" - are falling behind.

 

[Paschendale]

You seen Detroit lately? :lol:

I don't know if you've noticed or not, but the South is actually catching up with the rest of the country in many regards, while some of the old powerhouse regions - a.k.a. the "rust belt" - are falling behind.

Yes, in places where conservatives and separatists are losing power, things in the south are improving. The ugly culture that gave us the civil war, segregation, the KKK, mass lynchings, and creationism are dying out and being replaced with modern ideas. The southerners who don't view the confederacy as their identity are the ones making it a better place.

 

[TurtleDude]

Yes, in places where conservatives and separatists are losing power, things in the south are improving. The ugly culture that gave us the civil war, segregation, the KKK, mass lynchings, and creationism are dying out and being replaced with modern ideas. The southerners who don't view the confederacy as their identity are the ones making it a better place.

anyone who doesn't think racism exists in the North is dishonest-or worse. Its funny seeing this sort of regional jingoism alive and smelling as bad as it did 150 years ago

 

[Gathomas88]

Yes, in places where conservatives and separatists are losing power, things in the south are improving. The ugly culture that gave us the civil war, segregation, the KKK, mass lynchings, and creationism are dying out and being replaced with modern ideas. The southerners who don't view the confederacy as their identity are the ones making it a better place.

Oh, blah. Save the self-righteous preaching for someone who actually cares, Pasch. :roll:

Probably the fastest growing part of the Southeast is Texas, and it is pretty damn far from being a bastion of the political Left. lol

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

I'm not saying we don't have serious problems, we do, and I do feel embarrassed for some of the things Georgia does, and you know I've had no problems talking about the issues with the area I call home. Hell, I experienced the bad end of a good portion of our social problems down here because I am gay. I do agree with pretty much everything you said here. I'm not saying that we should feel good about nothing, I'm just saying I think the south gets unfairly criticized. We are the butt of many a joke, and a lot of people think we are some backwoods place with no redeeming qualities and that the people are nothing but stupid racist, assholes. It just seems excessive and doesn't do anything to help our problems either.

I'm not saying relations are the best -- obviously they aren't. But perhaps that increasing negativity is frustration. And that frustration is not without good reason.

The rest of the country can't do any more to help than it already is. The other states lose huge amounts of money for their own states to help the South, and nothing gets better because the Southern states' governments just choose to piddle it away. Unless we're going to take away some state power, the rest of the country can't make them improve themselves. And they choose not to, no matter how much everyone else helps. Because of that, the rest of the country gets held back, basically forced into austerity so the South can just throw away their resources.

And while they're busy piddling away the incredible amount of help they're getting, they're also busy telling us what horrible, evil, ungodly people we all are.

Well, this is a two way street.

People from my former state might be more friendly if so many of them weren't calling us a bunch of evil heathens for having the audacity to have the most gay-friendly city in America. Fact is, while the South isn't all stupid bigoted assholes, the stupid bigoted assholes that there are, are certainly very, very loud.

It might also help if they didn't spend our money on harassing the poor and women, but rather on restoring the police forces they've cut, bringing back full school weeks to the children who've lost them, and fixing their crumbling infrastructure -- the way that money was intended.

It is clear why relations between the South and North are bad. It is good for frustrations to be talked about, but the problem is that only one party has actually been willing to do anything to fix this situation. And that party isn't the South.

When we couldn't have sufficient ploughs after a blizzard because Missouri spent our money on harassing raped women while simultaneously calling all of us assholes, yeah, we get a little pissed and kind of start to wonder why we bother.

Certainly, I don't think anyone truly believes the South is a jungle with no civilization. We all know a number of fairly important cities and places are down there.

But it's hard to be nice when we're being spat at even while we're denying our own so that we can give to them.

And apart from slavery, that's what their flag represents. "We still hate you, and we still don't see ourselves as part of you. We still think you're evil." Well, ok then. So why are we bothering to help?

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Germany was a mono-ethnic industrial powerhouse which had the benefit of two Superpowers funneling a metric **** ton of money into rebuilding what the Second World War destroyed. The South, by way of contrast, was a mostly agrarian society, which had its primary industry pretty much flat out removed from play by the Emancipation Proclamation, got a rather half-assed (and in some cases, outright spiteful) attempt at "Reconstruction" at best, and then had to sort out the problems inherent to having basically one half of its population being largely unwilling, or unable, to work with the other due to the cultural and economic barriers that sprung up in the wake of institutionalized slavery's end.

It wasn't quite the same thing. Frankly, in case you haven't noticed, most former slave societies have tended to run afoul of the same kinds of economic and social problems faced by the American South. That's a large part of the reason why huge swaths of Latin America are so fundamentally screwed up.

In any eventuality, however, no one's making "excuses." As I already said, in terms of population and economy, the modern South East is one of the fastest growing regions in the country. We're behind, but we're catching up.

You think Germany is mono-ethnic? Ok then. :lol:

At any rate, I could find you numerous examples of the same thing (and I'm sure for each of them you'd find some kind of reason why "it's not the saaaame!"). I'm sorry, but you cannot use this as a reason why you can't improve in perpetuity.

The North pours a ton of money into the South every single year. It's basically been forced into permanent austerity by their wastefulness and unwillingness to change.

Sadly enough, there are parts of Latin America that now out-perform the South on a variety of metrics.

No, it's really not. The reason the population is climbing is due to poverty that prevents proper birth control, which of course begets more poverty. The Mexicans are actually starting to leave -- the prospects aren't good enough for them, if you can imagine that. And the reason the economy is climbing is because the average pay in the South is abysmal, so unethical companies are sending their work down there -- you know, like outsourcing to China.

While, in the short run, this may produce a better Southern economy (although I'm not even convinced it will do that), it will in the long run just lead to even more extreme social problems as need continues to outstrip availability and access.

The North will eventually suffer as well. The North is become very much a service economy. While it certainly does have resources, it is for whatever reason choosing not to use them and instead to invalidate itself as a competitive 21st century economy.

In the end, I don't think either will come out of this well.

 

[X Factor]

The war wasn't about slavery though slavery played a big part as slaves were the vehicle for production of the south and it's industries. Political issues, Economic and trade issues as well as States Rights issues were primarily the problem.

Don't be silly. There are no "nuances" here and you trying to inject anything other than the proper narrative (that all things southern is per se racist) make you a racist yourself.

 

[Paschendale]

Oh, blah. Save the self-righteous preaching for someone who actually cares, Pasch. :roll:

Probably the fastest growing part of the Southeast is Texas, and it is pretty damn far from being a bastion of the political Left. lol

Texas is the southeastern state that is transitioning towards the left the most.

 

[X Factor]

Texas is the southeastern state that is transitioning towards the left the most.

Lol, you wish. You're too used watching left wing news sources that wanted to make it seem Wendy Davis actually had some chance against Greg Abbot when that never was the case. It was never even close.

 

[Linc]

Just a quick note on the fascinating history between A. Jackson and J. Calhoun.

anyone who doesn't think racism exists in the North is dishonest-or worse.
Its funny seeing this sort of regional jingoism alive and smelling as bad as it did 150 years ago

Agreed--Indiana was the Northern state that was the epicenter of the 2nd KKK.
And I've seen plenty of Confederate flags in the Northern parts of the Northeast bordering Canada.

As for Canada, there's plenty of their flags in the Northeast.
Weren't they part of the British empire we rebelled against?
Time to ban them also .

 

[Gathomas88]

You think Germany is mono-ethnic? Ok then. :lol:

Yes, in comparison to a region made up former slaves, their masters, and their masters' former servants, Germany is the very definition of "mono-ethnic." Pretty much all of Europe is, or was, until fairly recently.

Any other silly questions we can take care of while we're at it?

Sadly enough, there are parts of Latin America that now out-perform the South on a variety of metrics.

A lot of Latin America is a Hell of a lot bigger than the South, so that's hardly surprising. :lol:

Standards of living, however, still tend to be substantially lower on average.

No, it's really not. The reason the population is climbing is due to poverty that prevents proper birth control, which of course begets more poverty.

No. The population is climbing primarily due to Northern transplants coming down South for cheaper property values and lower taxes.

Many Northern states are actually seeing a net loss of population right now, almost in direct correlation with the South's gains.

And the reason the economy is climbing is because the average pay in the South is abysmal, so unethical companies are sending their work down there -- you know, like outsourcing to China.

Boeing just moved to South Carolina a few years ago. It's one of the few boons our economy has seen during the recession.

They came primarily because they knew that they wouldn't have to deal with union nonsense. So far, the enterprise has been a resounding success.

While, in the short run, this may produce a better Southern economy (although I'm not even convinced it will do that), it will in the long run just lead to even more extreme social problems as need continues to outstrip availability and access.

The North will eventually suffer as well. The North is become very much a service economy. While it certainly does have resources, it is for whatever reason choosing not to use them and instead to invalidate itself as a competitive 21st century economy.

In the end, I don't think either will come out of this well.

Ummm... You realize that the South is hardly alone in taking Federal subsidies, right? The Midwest takes just as much as we do, if not more.

Michigan state budget and finances - Ballotpedia

Actually, I think one of the most "dependent" states in the Union is New Mexico.

There are also other factors to take into consideration, like what a hassle spending on hurricane relief tends to be in the Southeast, and the high poverty rates the South tends to experience among its minority populations (mainly because we have large minority populations to begin with). While that sucks, I don't see the Left proposing any kind of viable solution to that problem other than "MOAR WELFARE SPENDING RAAARRRGGGHH!!!"

I hate to break it ya, but that's not going to make the problem any less expensive to take care of on the federal level. :lol:

What exactly do you think we're "piddling" money away on down here?

 

[Gathomas88]

Texas is the southeastern state that is transitioning towards the left the most.

Riiiggghht... :lamo

 

[Your Star]

I'm not saying relations are the best -- obviously they aren't. But perhaps that increasing negativity is frustration. And that frustration is not without good reason.

The rest of the country can't do any more to help than it already is. The other states lose huge amounts of money for their own states to help the South, and nothing gets better because the Southern states' governments just choose to piddle it away. Unless we're going to take away some state power, the rest of the country can't make them improve themselves. And they choose not to, no matter how much everyone else helps. Because of that, the rest of the country gets held back, basically forced into austerity so the South can just throw away their resources.

And while they're busy piddling away the incredible amount of help they're getting, they're also busy telling us what horrible, evil, ungodly people we all are.

Well, this is a two way street.

People from my former state might be more friendly if so many of them weren't calling us a bunch of evil heathens for having the audacity to have the most gay-friendly city in America. Fact is, while the South isn't all stupid bigoted assholes, the stupid bigoted assholes that there are, are certainly very, very loud.

It might also help if they didn't spend our money on harassing the poor and women, but rather on restoring the police forces they've cut, bringing back full school weeks to the children who've lost them, and fixing their crumbling infrastructure -- the way that money was intended.

It is clear why relations between the South and North are bad. It is good for frustrations to be talked about, but the problem is that only one party has actually been willing to do anything to fix this situation. And that party isn't the South.

When we couldn't have sufficient ploughs after a blizzard because Missouri spent our money on harassing raped women while simultaneously calling all of us assholes, yeah, we get a little pissed and kind of start to wonder why we bother.

Certainly, I don't think anyone truly believes the South is a jungle with no civilization. We all know a number of fairly important cities and places are down there.

But it's hard to be nice when we're being spat at even while we're denying our own so that we can give to them.

And apart from slavery, that's what their flag represents. "We still hate you, and we still don't see ourselves as part of you. We still think you're evil." Well, ok then. So why are we bothering to help?

I don't have an argument against any of that. All valid points. It is, however, frustrating when people write off the entire region and populace. Especially as someone who does like living down here, though I can see myself moving in the future, and wants to change things - in whatever small way one person can - for the better.

The fact that the south's LGBT right's record is abysmal certainly hits home. The fact that we spend so much money on trying to deny access to healthcare for women, the fact that workers rights are basically nonexistent down here is terrible. I mean, I could go on, but I agree with you that the politics down here are really ****ed up. I know that, a lot of us down here know that. It doesn't do any good that the entire south gets blanketed with abject personal attacks. Not just criticism, but just mean outright attacks. Not that if those stopped any of our problems will be solved, it's just a big pet peeve of mine.

We have a lot of work to do down here. We have a lot of problems that need solving, and with the current political climate I'm not so sure that they can be solved in the near future. But it doesn't make us any less valuable to the country. It doesn't make us a stain on the country, and it doesn't make the people bad people. I'm not saying that you're suggesting that, I'm just saying that is what it feels like when people just condemn the south to being nothing more than a bunch of racist, homophobic hicks.