What measures do you think the United States should take in response to Russian expansionism in Europe?

[post]

-snip-

If the Ukraine Nationalists would have waited just one more year for the next election
instead of overthrowing Yankovich in such an un Democratic Coup where we are now would have never happened.

OMFG! You "wait just one more year," you radicalized propagandist!
You are under the influence of the U.S.'s Yankovich, manufactured, bought, and paid for by the identical fascist scum!

Link to cached page of this article,
https://webcache.googleusercontent....untry/+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=opera

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2018/08/17/yes-paul-manafort-is-on-trial-for-crimes-in-the-u-s-but-his-work-in-ukraine-helped-to-destroy-a-country/

Opinion: Yes, Paul Manafort is on trial for crimes in the U.S. But his work in Ukraine helped to destroy a country.​

August 17, 2018
"..Manafort’s defenders have described him as a brilliant political mind. But what those court documents showed me was something far more malignant: rank cynicism and a will to use people’s fears and struggles as weapons against them. Just as in the campaign he ran for Trump, Manafort counseled Yanukovych to not only inflame economic insecurities, but also to create fissures within Ukrainian society to be exploited for political advantage. Grievances of Yanukovych’s native Donbas region in the east, with industry in decline, were amplified. In a country where, historically, Russian and Ukrainian languages have coexisted, the citizens were pitted against each other across linguistic lines..."

Paul Manafort, American Hustler

Decades before he ran the Trump campaign, one lobbyist’s pursuit of foreign cash and shady deals laid the groundwork for the corruption of Washington.

www.theatlantic.com

PAUL MANAFORT, AMERICAN HUSTLER​

Decades before he ran the Trump campaign, Paul Manafort’s pursuit of foreign cash and shady deals laid the groundwork for the corruption of Washington.
By Franklin Foer

"His work, the source of the status he cherished, had taken a devastating turn. For nearly a decade, he had counted primarily on a single client, albeit an exceedingly lucrative one. He’d been the chief political strategist to the man who became the president of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, with whom he’d developed a highly personal relationship. Manafort would swim naked with his boss outside his banya, play ..and generally serve as an arbiter of power in a vast country. One of his deputies, Rick Gates, once boasted to a group of Washington lobbyists, “You have to understand, we’ve been working in Ukraine a long time, and Paul has a whole separate shadow government structure … In every ministry, he has a guy.” Only a small handful of Americans—oil executives, Cold War spymasters—could claim to have ever amassed such influence in a foreign regime...

....Manafort often justified his work in Ukraine by arguing that he hoped to guide the country toward Europe and the West. But his polling data suggested that Yanukovych should accentuate cultural divisions in the country, playing to the sense of victimization felt by Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine. And sure enough, his clients railed against nato expansion. When a U.S. diplomat discovered a rabidly anti-American speech on the Party of Regions’ website, Manafort told him, “But it isn’t on the English version.”

...One of his greatest gifts as a businessman was his audacity, and his Ukrainian benefactors had amassed enormous fortunes. The outrageous amounts that Manafort billed, sums far greater than any he had previously received, seemed perfectly normal. An associate of Manafort’s described the system this way: “Paul would ask for a big sum,” Yanukovych would approve it, and then his chief of staff “would go to the other oligarchs and ask them to kick in. ‘Hey, you need to pay a million.’ They would complain, but Yanukovych asked, so they would give.”
When Yanukovych won the presidency in 2010, he gave Manafort “walk in” privileges, allowing him to stroll into the inner sanctum of the presidential offices at any time. ... Manafort, however, knew how to change Yanukovych’s mind, using polling and political arguments to make his case. Oleg Voloshyn, a former spokesman in the foreign-affairs ministry, told me that his own boss, the foreign minister, eventually turned to Manafort to carry messages and make arguments regarding foreign-policy priorities on his behalf. “Yanukovych would listen to him,” Voloshyn told me, “when our arguments were ignored.”.."

 

[post]

View attachment 67379823

Country Insights | Human Development Reports

hdr.undp.org

So... Are the people if Libya better or worse off according to the HDI?

Do you even attempt to make a coherent point? You've shifted quite away from your Putin apologist, "NATO is the aggressor," propaganda.

 

[Lord of Planar]

OK, it was 2010 that Libya had achieved 53rd. My memory was a little off. In 2011, as the civil war developed they slipped to 64th, and went downhill.

https://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/reports/270/hdr_2010_en_complete_reprint.pdf

https://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/reports/271/hdr_2011_en_complete.pdf

 

[PoS]

I think America needs to be more forceful on the diplomatic front. Start drawing lines in the sand, like saying we will enforce a no-fly zone if chemical weapons are ever used and all that. Putin only understands force, so the West must be ready to call his threats.

 

[Individual]

Now you're being disingenuous. I was referring to U.S. support, and you responded:

Yes. that was my response.
Neither has NATO or our allies come under attack. The EU is more than capable of providing any monetary and other forms of aid to the Ukraine, including military. IF, Russia were to expand the conflict and attack a NATO member, then we would have a reason to become more involved.

 

[code1211]

NATO's mere existence is an example of aggression.

NATO's continual aggressive expansion is an example.

The way NATO castrated Yugoslavia is another example. That was done with the intent of denying Russia access to ports on the Adriatic, and to prevent Russia from ever using forward operating bases (FOBs) for its fighters and bombers in an attempt defend itself from NATO aggression.

Likewise, US/NATO attacks on Libya and Tunisia, also designed to prevent Russia from using those ports or putting FOBs there is another.

The whole point of Yugoslavia and Arab Spring was to drive Russia out of the Mediterranean and pin them up in the Black Sea.

That is all part of US Geo-Political Strategy, the end-game of which is US control of the eastern Russian republics.

Russia knows that. So does China and few others.

Another example would be the Kennedy Political Crisis, since the missiles weren't Cuban and there was no crisis for either Cuba or Russia.

The US vis-a-vis NATO deployed Jupiter IRBMs to Italy and Turkey at JKF's insistence, even though Eisenhower, who initially authorized the deployment in 1957, halted the deployment after Eisenhower back-stabbed Castro, and knew the might possibly respond to this hostile aggressive US action by deploying IRBMs to Cuba.

Eisenhower knew that, because Eisenhower knew Soviet nuclear weapons policy was no first-use, no escalation, and quid pro quo response.

The Jupiter IRBMs in Italy and Turkey could destroy 100s of cities in Warsaw Pact States, including Moscow, and there was no way for the Soviets to respond without escalating to the use of ICBMs, which --- you'll probably have a hard time understanding this -- would be unthinkable, even for the evil Soviets.

JFK ignored Eisenhower's repeated warning -- because JFK went to Harvard so he's smarter than anyone in the Universe -- and then botched the Bay of Pigs.

Still, there was no way for the Soviets to put IRBMs in Cuba.

Then, JFK -- being the smartest man in the Universe -- gave the Soviets the green-light when he guaranteed the US would never invade Cuba during a press conference broadcast to the entire freaking world on radio and TV.

For the Soviets, it was a Win-Win-Win Scenario:

1) SS-4s and SS-5s in Cuba give the Soviets parity. If the US nukes Moscow with a Jupiter, the Soviets can nuke Washington DC with an SS-4 or SS-5 without escalating to ICBMs.

2) The Soviets will gladly agree to withdraw their missiles in exchange for the withdraw of US Jupiters. That restores parity by negating the hostile aggressive US act.

3) The Soviets could even agree to withdraw their IRBMs if the US, Britain and France withdrew from Berlin.

In the words of General Curtis LeMay: We lost!

Berlin was another. The Soviets did blockade Berlin, but that was only because the US leaned on the Germans to stop making war reparation payments to the Soviets that were rightfully owed under international law and the treaty between Germany and the USSR.

While the evil Soviets didn't start WW III -- and they lawfully could have -- they opted for a peaceful non-aggressive response.

Another hostile aggressive act is the US and Britain barring East Bloc currencies, including the Soviet Ruble, from being traded on the global market, because the US and Britain controlled the BIS (Bank of International Settlements) through which payments for all global trade are made.

What do you think your economy would be like if US Dollar was banned from global trade?

Well, quite likely, you may not be here on the internet talking, because you couldn't afford it.

Iraq and Afghanistan are all intended to further the US Geo-Political Strategy of gaining control of the eastern Russian republics.

The "sudden" US withdraw from Afghanistan is worrisome.

The US likely withdrew because it intends a future false-flag operation where it will accuse Iran and the Taliban of working together and use that as a pretext to invade Iran.

The US needs control of Central Asia in order to take over eastern Russia.

Russia knows that.

The US needs control of Iran, because the only way to control of Central Asia is with unfettered air, highway and rail access from the Persian Gulf/Arabian Sea/Indian Ocean Region.

Russia knows that, too.

Russia and Belarus also know the US has been attempting to illegally overthrow the Belarus government, so NATO can aggressively expand there.

The attack on Ukraine now is the smart move.

It keeps the US/NATO from gaining control of Ukraine to use to enforce the future No-Fly Zone in Russia, and keeps the US from gaining control of Belarus for the same purpose.

Plus, it thwarts the US attempt to gain control of Iran or at the very least, delays it.

Well, you certainly seem committed to this line of thinking.

 

[Lord of Planar]

I think America needs to be more forceful on the diplomatic front. Start drawing lines in the sand, like saying we will enforce a no-fly zone if chemical weapons are ever used and all that. Putin only understands force, so the West must be ready to call his threats.

Based on what the lying media says, I would probably agree. The problem is, I don't believe the media any more. The politicians are worse.

 

[Mircea]

Damn someone is buying into fake news and propaganda.

Um, no, someone was involved in summarizing, editing, drafting and preparing US Army doctrine related to US Geo-Political Strategy and knows that the US intends to carve up Russia in the same way it carved up Yugoslavia, so that the US can gain control of the eastern Russian republics rich in oil, natural gas, coal, metal ores and non-metallic minerals.

If Belarus and Ukraine are neutral States, then US/NATO cannot enforce a No-Fly Zone in Russia to keep Russia from suppressing US-backed insurgents in eastern Russia, because that would violate Belorussian and Ukrainian air-space, since they're neutral.

With a neutral Belarus and Ukraine, the US/NATO will have to use airbases in Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey and Central Asia, and now you know why Russia took control of Crimea.

Russian surface groups are basically anti-ship/anti-air platforms. Based in Crimea, they can screen and shoot down US/NATO aircraft coming out of Romania, Bulgaria and Turkey on their way to Russia.

Russian SAM sites in Crimea will knock down more, and Russian fighters can interdict US/NATO aircraft on their way to Russia, or escort Russian bombers engaged in non-ballistic missile attacks on US/NATO airbases in Romania, Bulgaria, and Turkey.

Now, go forth and be ignorant no more.

 

[Kreton]

Based on what the lying media says, I would probably agree. The problem is, I don't believe the media any more. The politicians are worse.

You don't believe the media and politicians are worse.....yet you are a devout follower of a politician and put unquestionable trust in a news network. Even you should be able to see the flaw in your logic there.

 

[Mircea]

Yep.

Very much of that is just deadly interference.

Just follow the money.

After the US carved up Yugoslavia:

Kosovo's PTK privatization: with a little help from old friends

The company of former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright “Albright Capital Management LLC” has been shortlisted for the privatisation of PTK, Kosovo’s state-owned postal and telecom company.

Wesley Clark puts name behind Kosovo coal project

The Envidity Company owned by General Clark has filed its request to the government of the self-proclaimed republic for permission to extract coal from the deposits in the western part of Kosovo, the Serbian news service B-92 reported on June 26.

After Bush illegally overthrew the Ukrainian government in 2004 and the Obama staved off a counter-coup in 2010 to protect the US-puppet people like Hunter Biden and others ended up on the boards of Ukrainian companies so the US can control Ukraine.

 

[Kreton]

Um, no, someone was involved in summarizing, editing, drafting and preparing US Army doctrine related to US Geo-Political Strategy and knows that the US intends to carve up Russia in the same way it carved up Yugoslavia, so that the US can gain control of the eastern Russian republics rich in oil, natural gas, coal, metal ores and non-metallic minerals.

If Belarus and Ukraine are neutral States, then US/NATO cannot enforce a No-Fly Zone in Russia to keep Russia from suppressing US-backed insurgents in eastern Russia, because that would violate Belorussian and Ukrainian air-space, since they're neutral.

With a neutral Belarus and Ukraine, the US/NATO will have to use airbases in Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey and Central Asia, and now you know why Russia took control of Crimea.

Russian surface groups are basically anti-ship/anti-air platforms. Based in Crimea, they can screen and shoot down US/NATO aircraft coming out of Romania, Bulgaria and Turkey on their way to Russia.

Russian SAM sites in Crimea will knock down more, and Russian fighters can interdict US/NATO aircraft on their way to Russia, or escort Russian bombers engaged in non-ballistic missile attacks on US/NATO airbases in Romania, Bulgaria, and Turkey.

Now, go forth and be ignorant no more.

Again you are blatantly chirping the Putin narrative broadcast by his propaganda network. There is no way someone like you was ever involved in drafting anything of consequence. I have seen your posts. You do not have the ability.

As for saying that the US/Nato cannot enforce a no fly zone because Ukraine is neutral you are wrong. It is a choice that was made. Nothing prevents it except for the choice of the US/Nato.

Your allegiance to Russia over America is pathetic.

 

[Lord of Planar]

You don't believe the media and politicians are worse.....yet you are a devout follower of a politician and put unquestionable trust in a news network. Even you should be able to see the flaw in your logic there.

Really?

Who do I follow?

How would you know? Are you stalking me? Do you have a spy-cam in my home?

Do you reallize you much integrity you lose when you state such incorrect assumptions as fact?

 

[Kreton]

Really?

Who do I follow?

How would you know? Are you stalking me? Do you have a spy-cam in my home?

Do you reallize you much integrity you lose when you state such incorrect assumptions as fact?

The over 50,000 public messages you post on a public forum might be a really big clue. I bet even someone like you could figure that out without my help though.

 

[Peter]

That was the point I thought should have been hammered home prior to the invasion, instead of going on about economic consequences. Putin isn't worried about money currency, he cares about power, and the expansion of Russian power. Threaten that, instead.

Erm, Putin doesn't care about money?
Russia is going to really struggle to be a world power if no other country or global company will trade with them and no bank is willing to lend them money.

No country could survive under those circumstances including the US.

 

[Lord of Planar]

After Bush illegally overthrew the Ukrainian government in 2004 and the Obama staved off a counter-coup in 2010 to protect the US-puppet people like Hunter Biden and others ended up on the boards of Ukrainian companies so the US can control Ukraine.

I'm not aware of the 2004 or 2010 event you speak of, did some searched and couldn't find anything.

Link please.

Now what you said about Biden, I do believe. He most certainly pulled lots on money out of the cookie jar.

 

[Lord of Planar]

The over 50,000 public messages you post on a public forum might be a really big clue. I bet even someone like you could figure that out without my help though.

Yes, yes, yes.... I can see how an indoctrinated lefty might think that. You are apparently projecting. Just because you might need someone to tell you how to think, it doesn't mean I do.

My thoughts are my own.

Accepted or be laughed at when you make such unwarranted claims.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Erm, Putin doesn't care about money?
Russia is going to really struggle to be a world power if no other country or global company will trade with them and no bank is willing to lend them money.

No country could survive under those circumstances including the US.

We are too dependent on imports now. Once upon a time, BC (before Clinton,) we could stand on our own with nobody's help.

 

[Tigerace117]

Erm, Putin doesn't care about money?
Russia is going to really struggle to be a world power if no other country or global company will trade with them and no bank is willing to lend them money.

No country could survive under those circumstances including the US.

China’s actively committing genocide in Xinjiang and people still do business with them, so the idea that nobody is going to do business with Russia is a bit questionable.

 

[Lord of Planar]

China’s actively committing genocide in Xinjiang and people still do business with them, so the idea that nobody is going to do business with Russia is a bit questionable.

Besides. It's the common citizen that it hurts, who just want to live a normal life.

 

[Peter]

China’s actively committing genocide in Xinjiang and people still do business with them, so the idea that nobody is going to do business with Russia is a bit questionable.

Well, they're being utterly spanked by sanctions, companies stopping doing business with them and global public opinion of them plummeting and forcing other companies to stop trading with them so it's not been great so far.

 

[Peter]

Besides. It's the common citizen that it hurts, who just want to live a normal life.

Exactly, People have a problem with Putin, not the average Russian.
As soon as the war stops and Putin steps aside the sanctions can stop and life can go back to normal for average Russians.

 

[Tigerace117]

Well, they're being utterly spanked by sanctions, companies stopping doing business with them and global public opinion of them plummeting and forcing other companies to stop trading with them so it's not been great so far.

Yeah, but that’s because we are still in the “see, we’re doing something” phase of Western public opinion. People will lose interest sooner rather than later, and then it’ll be business as usual most likely.

 

[Peter]

Yeah, but that’s because we are still in the “see, we’re doing something” phase of Western public opinion. People will lose interest sooner rather than later, and then it’ll be business as usual most likely.

I don't think they will this time as the actions of Russia have been so obvious.
There's also the little fact that millions of people have fled from Ukraine into Europe and they will keep the issue alive.

I hope the world doesn't forget what's happening now.

 

[Mircea]

Not sure I agree with much of it though.

I don't recall being with you at the NTC practicing for the invasion of Iran.

I don't recall seeing you at any of the planning meetings or when giving presentations to general staff officers.

I don’t see NATO as an aggressive union.

That's because you don't see.

NATO was created first. The Warsaw Pact was created years later in 1955.

NATO would not accept Yugoslavia, Albania, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungaria, the eastern territory (later the DDR) or the Soviet Union.

NATO will not accept Russia now, because the US intends to carve up Russia just like it carved up Yugoslavia.

It was the US and Britain who forced Germany to halt war reparations to the Soviets. Instead of starting WW III, which the Soviets could have legally and justifiably done since Germany violated the treaty, the Soviets peacefully protested by blockading Berlin.

Your history books leave out the part about the US and Britain causing the Berlin Blockade.

The US/NATO aggressively deployed Jupiter IRBMs to Italy and Turkey which could hit 100s of cities in East Bloc States, including Moscow.

If the US nuked Moscow with a Jupiter IRBM, the Soviets would be unable to retaliate, because nuking Washington DC would require escalating to the use of an ICBM, and that was unthinkable, even for the Soviets.

Your history books conveniently forget to mention the Soviet deployment of IRBMs was in response/retaliation to the aggressive and hostile deployment of US/NATO Jupiter IRBMs to Italy and Turkey.

And your history books forget to mention that Kennedy blinked and caved-in and ordered the withdraw of the Jupiters in exchange for the withdraw of the SS-4 and SS-5 IRBMs from Cuba and just so we're clear on the concept, all Jupiters were withdraw from Italy and Turkey by September 1963 and the first missiles didn't leave Cuba until October 1964.

What was the last country NATO attacked and/or invaded without provocation?

Yugoslavia.

I don't recall seeing you in Serbia or Kosovo or Metohija while NATO aircraft were bombing there.

I was no longer in the Army at the time, but I was with a Channel 4 news crew.

NATO aircraft bombed Libya.

Do you not know that the US illegally overthrew the Libyan king at the request of the Saudis?

The US put Moamar Ghaddafi in power, and then either prevented or gave Ghaddafi advance notice of 11 additional coup attempts over the years to keep Ghaddafi in power.

I knew that because I had access to classified docs but those have been declassified now although they are still heavily redacted.

When was the last time NATO supported a ruthless dictator who used chemical weapons on his own people?

Iraq.

I had a chance to go to Iraq as a US military advisor in 1984, but I was already slotted to go to Egypt for 6-weeks to train the Egyptian Army so I turned it down. I said for years US advisors gave the go ahead to use chemical weapons on Iran and then about 6 years ago those docs were declassified.

The were US chemical weapons by the way. I knew they were there for the same reason I knew there were chemical weapons in Germany. After I got back from Egypt, I had to go to Germany to straighten out the mess there. They were 2 years behind on the Honest John warhead in Greece and Turkey, and 1 year behind on the withdraw of the 8"/203 mm 0.1 kt rounds from Greece and Turkey, and almost 2 years behind on the withdraw of Nike-Hercules warheads from Germany and Italy and 18 months behind on the Pershing II deployment and behind on warhead maintenace. I delivered the last PII warhead to Neu Ulm myself on December 4, 1985 just 9 weeks behind schedule.

Got a medal for it.

Anyway, now you know why the US made a beeline to the Khamisiyah Depot. The French had chemical warheads there, too.

I only inhaled 3 tons of nerve agent and 75 burning oil wells. That was the good news your government told me because I'd swear it was 4 tons of nerve agent and 78 burning oil wells.

I am sure NATO isn’t without fault but I see it as a defensive union.

Against what?

It's sad that you cannot see how your government manufactures crises in order to intervene.

I won't live long enough, but damn I'd love to see all your faces when the docs are declassified and you find out all the VII Corps units were training in the desert that borders Turkey and Iraq in the months before Desert Shield.

So, either someone had one helluva Ouija Board or someone already knew they'd need an entire Army corps all trained up in the fine art of desert warfare.

 

[Tigerace117]

I don't think they will this time as the actions of Russia have been so obvious.
There's also the little fact that millions of people have fled from Ukraine into Europe and they will keep the issue alive.

I hope the world doesn't forget what's happening now.

Despite all the outrage over the invasion of Iraq people still did business with the US. Remember Kony 2012? All those good intentions and money, and they still never actually caught the guy, and by 2017 had more or less washed their hands of the whole thing.

It’s also rather telling how refugees suddenly become no big deal when they are coming from a European, largely Christian country.