What is the Relationship Between Faith and Evidence?

[Cephus]

It's also funny to see an atheist claim he has read the Bible once, maybe twice, at most, when Christians spend their whole lives reading and studying the Bible too many times to count...

I'll take you on any time you want. Willing to put up, or as usual, will you just refuse to shut up?

 

[Daisy]

I'll take you on any time you want. Willing to put up, or as usual, will you just refuse to shut up?

I will never shut up, as long as I live and breathe...deal with it...

 

[davidhume]

Been there, done that, studied the Bible in depth from cover to cover. It's why I'm an atheist. Because reading it, not just picking the parts you like, but reading it all in context and studying what it says and where it came from, all of that will kill religious faith in no time flat.

Some of the stuff Jesus says is good. But Paul is an azzhole--moreso after his conversion.

 

[Cephus]

Some of the stuff Jesus says is good. But Paul is an azzhole--moreso after his conversion.

I don't really care if what Jesus says is good if it isn't actually true. I'm sure you could take some wisdom from the pages of Harry Potter. So what? Harry Potter, like Jesus, is a fantasy.

 

[davidhume]

I don't really care if what Jesus says is good if it isn't actually true. I'm sure you could take some wisdom from the pages of Harry Potter. So what? Harry Potter, like Jesus, is a fantasy.

Agree; that was my point. I was trying to show fundamentalists that we can read the Bible and get something out of it without converting to Christianity.

 

[DarthPedant]

Life itself is a gift...it's up to you what you do with it...some of the poorest people in the world are happy because they understand there is more to life than things...

Yeah, I just don’t see how any of that is evidence for any gods. When skeptics say they can’t find any evidence that there’s any gods and what we hear back from believers are things like : ‘but some people have pretty good lives and some people manage to be happy even in adversity’, it’s obvious we have different ideas about what constitutes evidence.


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[Cephus]

Yeah, I just don’t see how any of that is evidence for any gods. When skeptics say they can’t find any evidence that there’s any gods and what we hear back from believers are things like : ‘but some people have pretty good lives and some people manage to be happy even in adversity’, it’s obvious we have different ideas about what constitutes evidence.

It isn't evidence, it's wishful thinking. It is the fallacious argument from ignorance. It's all they have. It makes them feel good so they insist it has to be true. They don't understand, or don't want to accept, that the world works just fine without their imaginary friend, so "I don't get it, therefore God!" Except that's not how rationality works. And the moment we point out that's not how it works, the religious get mad because we're upsetting their emotionally comforting yet intellectually vapid apple cart. Just watch how they operate because it happens time and time again.

"God exists."
"Prove it."
"I don't have to prove it, you'll find out when you die and God fries your ass for all of eternity, you evil heretic!"

And unfortunately, they see nothing wrong in what they're doing. Go figure.

 

[DarthPedant]

Not me, and not most of my Christian friends either.

What amazes us is how shallow and narrow-minded atheists and agnostics are concerning the numerous evidences for Christ and Christianity. Very few of them have ever done any substantial investigations of the evidences of the New Testament. Usually it's at best a quick, superficial reading of the Bible, without digging deeper into the Gospels and other evidences.

It’s a little weird to expect us all to be bible scholars, isn’t it? But seriously, I’ve known too many Christians... most of y’all are not Bible scholars either. If you had to guess what percent of Christians can read actually Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, understand textual criticism and know how to use a critical apparatus, and are well versed in the archaeology, history and literature of ancient Israel and it’s neighbors, what percent would you put on that? I’d guess less than one...

But what evidence do you think I’m missing? When I ask, I get a lot of grandiose claims like Elvira’s ‘life is a gift’, or I get things like ‘read Lee Strobel’, which I have, and was unimpressed by.


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[Logicman]

I've read parts of the New Testament in ancient Greek. Been there, done that.

"parts" of the New Testament? Have you researched the resurrection in depth? Got a good motive why so many people would have lied about it were it not true?

 

[Logicman]

It’s a little weird to expect us all to be bible scholars, isn’t it? But seriously, I’ve known too many Christians... most of y’all are not Bible scholars either. If you had to guess what percent of Christians can read actually Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, understand textual criticism and know how to use a critical apparatus, and are well versed in the archaeology, history and literature of ancient Israel and it’s neighbors, what percent would you put on that? I’d guess less than one...

Well first of all, Greek scholars and translators translated the New Testament, so right off the bat you have a great start on what's written. Second, many Christians have study Bibles that have further textual elaborations in the notes sections, and third, many Christians have commentaries by scholars and also concordances that show word interpretations. Most of you guys don't have those, do you?

But what evidence do you think I’m missing? When I ask, I get a lot of grandiose claims like Elvira’s ‘life is a gift’, or I get things like ‘read Lee Strobel’, which I have, and was unimpressed by.

Was there some lie or lies in Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ" that I missed?

Have you read these two by one of the top New Testament scholars?

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;

"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr, Gary Habermas.

 

[blarg]

There was a question in that babble?:2razz:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority



you seem to be doing this

Appeal to non-authorities
Fallacious arguments from authority are also frequently the result of citing a non-authority as an authority.[29] An example of the fallacy of appealing to an authority in an unrelated field would be citing Albert Einstein as an authority for a determination on religion when his primary expertise was in physics.


you weer asked if you would only keep doing that

 

[blarg]

Look in the mirror...you exist, don't you? How about your loved ones? You have air to breathe? Food to eat? You live in relative happiness? Life is good? You can thank God for that and much more...

those things you listed exist and your religion claims your god is the reason for that where's the evidence of that linck?

 

[blarg]

You can't make a god who makes a tree...:2razz:

not so the great lord are god zebck the fishy can create trees with just a wave of his tendrils

 

[davidhume]

"parts" of the New Testament? Have you researched the resurrection in depth? Got a good motive why so many people would have lied about it were it not true?

How much Greek do you know, smart guy? Tell me.

 

[Logicman]

How much Greek do you know, smart guy? Tell me.

Enough to know Jesus is resurrected in all four Gospels and various epistles. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

As for you, you didn't answer the previous question: Got a good reason / motive why so many people would have lied about the resurrection were it not true? Answer the question?

You also skipped over another question:

Have you read these two by one of the top New Testament scholars?

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;

"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr, Gary Habermas.

Those are two of the greatest evidence books for Jesus and the resurrection and you haven't read them??? Why not?

 

[RAMOSS]

Can you make a tree?

Has any tree ever been made, or was it just formed?

 

[DarthPedant]

Well first of all, Greek scholars and translators translated the New Testament, so right off the bat you have a great start on what's written. Second, many Christians have study Bibles that have further textual elaborations in the notes sections, and third, many Christians have commentaries by scholars and also concordances that show word interpretations. Most of you guys don't have those, do you?

I can only speak for my personal library, but given that many atheists used to be religious, our libraries are probably a fairly representative cross section of the same kinds of books believers have. Which is to say, some of us have few (just like some believers), and some of us have libraries that would make a pastor weep, and everything in between.

Was there some lie or lies in Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ" that I missed?

Have you read these two by one of the top New Testament scholars?

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;

"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr, Gary Habermas.

Well, ‘lie’ is a loaded word that assumes Strobel knows better, right? I could make a case that he’s lying in that he spends time pimping his credentials as an investigative journalist but then doesn’t seem to be following the best practices of his profession, doing very one sided investigations and presenting very one sided editorial pieces as if they are investigative journalism. The reader is simply supposed to trust that since he ‘used to be an atheist’, he is qualified to represent the opposing positions in a wide variety of fields. But simply not having believed at one point in the past doesn’t make him a good representative of any of the alternate takes on various sciences, history, philosophy etc any more than my ‘used to be a Christian’ means I should be trusted to represent theological positions I may never have even studied.

It’s also not hard to catch him throwing fallacies around (his case for the creator has an awful lot of ‘we don’t know: therefore god’). Is sloppy reasoning the same as lying? I don’t know that we can expect a journalist to spot their own logical fallacies. Is it lying if he is simply ignorant of opposing views? If he’s aware of them and doesn’t address them, perhaps we wander into lying by omission territory, but at the very least it reinforces my impression that he’s writing editorials that merely masquerade as investigative.

I have not read any Habermas, but it seems at one point way back when I was buying books faster than I was reading them, I appear to have bought the first of those books. I was surprised to see it because his name didn’t ring a bell, and I didn’t usually buy random apologetics books. Maybe I’ll take a look, since I have it.



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[William Rea]

I keep hearing comments about faith being blind...there is no proof...yet J Warner Wallace is able to make the connection between faith and evidence...faith is not blind but is based on good evidence...not complete proof but reasonable evidence...

...video snipped...

Define what you mean by 'faith' and 'evidence'.

 

[William Rea]

Some of the stuff Jesus says is good. But Paul is an azzhole--moreso after his conversion.

To be fair, in the narrative, Jesus was the 'big ideas' guy that left Paul to deal with all his sh*t.

When the CEO says 'make it so' it's usually Engineering that has to save his ass over and again.

 

[Logicman]

To be fair, in the narrative, Jesus was the 'big ideas' guy that left Paul to deal with all his sh*t.

I don't recalled Paul taking over the crucifixion from Jesus.

 

[RAMOSS]

I don't recalled Paul taking over the crucifixion from Jesus.

He certainly took over TALKING about the Crucifixion and what it means.

 

[davidhume]

To be fair, in the narrative, Jesus was the 'big ideas' guy that left Paul to deal with all his sh*t.

When the CEO says 'make it so' it's usually Engineering that has to save his ass over and again.

Okay. Not really sure what you are saying. Paul is more like the House whip. Yes, whips them into shape.

 

[Logicman]

He certainly took over TALKING about the Crucifixion and what it means.

Congratulations, Ramoss, for verifying the ministry of the Apostle Paul! You're making progress!

 

[William Rea]

Okay. Not really sure what you are saying. Paul is more like the House whip. Yes, whips them into shape.

Paul said, 'Some hippy dude comes along talking about peace and love and sh*t and gets himself killed leaving it to me to turn it into a viable business!'.

 

[davidhume]

Paul said, 'Some hippy dude comes along talking about peace and love and sh*t and gets himself killed leaving it to me to turn it into a viable business!'.

Paul is the antichrist.