What is the most optimal way to secure borders?

[phoenix2020]

My sense is that with perhaps some fringe outliers, both Republicans and Democrats favor border control and the disagreement these past four years was on the most efficient way to do it e.g. "a wall works and is the best way" vs. "walls are stupid and easy to climb over, let's do high tech method <tbd>". That said, I felt I wasn't exposed to terribly much debate about the pros and cons of different approaches beyond the statements just made. It's mostly been one side saying we must build a wall because this orange looking dude demanded it at rallies, and the other side saying we must not build a wall because this orange looking dude wants one.

Under the premise that we agree (for the purpose of this discussion) that border control is important and should achieve:
- control of people and goods flowing into and out of the country
- discouraging and preventing illegal goods traffic e.g. drugs, guns
- best balance of effectiveness, cost and maintainability
- relevance over the next 30-50 years in anticipation of both better ways to secure borders AND new technology to circumvent border controls
- mostly concerned with land and river crossings; scope is not inclusive of ocean or large natural lake borders

What is the best way to secure our borders?

options: barriers (what kind?), patrols, sensors, drones, satellite, turtles with cameras and turrets on their shelves, ...

 

[mrjurrs]

With a gate and a work permit.

 

[What if...?]

Fine anybody who hires one into bankruptcy.

/thread

 

[washunut]

My sense is that with perhaps some fringe outliers, both Republicans and Democrats favor border control and the disagreement these past four years was on the most efficient way to do it e.g. "a wall works and is the best way" vs. "walls are stupid and easy to climb over, let's do high tech method <tbd>". That said, I felt I wasn't exposed to terribly much debate about the pros and cons of different approaches beyond the statements just made. It's mostly been one side saying we must build a wall because this orange looking dude demanded it at rallies, and the other side saying we must not build a wall because this orange looking dude wants one.

Under the premise that we agree (for the purpose of this discussion) that border control is important and should achieve:
- control of people and goods flowing into and out of the country
- discouraging and preventing illegal goods traffic e.g. drugs, guns
- best balance of effectiveness, cost and maintainability
- relevance over the next 30-50 years in anticipation of both better ways to secure borders AND new technology to circumvent border controls
- mostly concerned with land and river crossings; scope is not inclusive of ocean or large natural lake borders

What is the best way to secure our borders?

options: barriers (what kind?), patrols, sensors, drones, satellite, turtles with cameras and turrets on their shelves, ...

You will never stop the flow without cutting off the reason for it. That is you have to be much tougher on firms and individuals who hire illegal immigrants.

Not much different than trying to stop the flow of drugs. Can't truly be done as long as demand for the product is there.

You can make it harder, but the benefits are so great versus the costs that many will make the attempt.

 

[Antiwar]

The stricter border patrol has resulted in more people dying because they take more dangerous routes.

Treating people badly rarely results in good things.

 

[lwf]

My sense is that with perhaps some fringe outliers, both Republicans and Democrats favor border control and the disagreement these past four years was on the most efficient way to do it e.g. "a wall works and is the best way" vs. "walls are stupid and easy to climb over, let's do high tech method <tbd>". That said, I felt I wasn't exposed to terribly much debate about the pros and cons of different approaches beyond the statements just made. It's mostly been one side saying we must build a wall because this orange looking dude demanded it at rallies, and the other side saying we must not build a wall because this orange looking dude wants one.

Under the premise that we agree (for the purpose of this discussion) that border control is important and should achieve:
- control of people and goods flowing into and out of the country
- discouraging and preventing illegal goods traffic e.g. drugs, guns
- best balance of effectiveness, cost and maintainability
- relevance over the next 30-50 years in anticipation of both better ways to secure borders AND new technology to circumvent border controls
- mostly concerned with land and river crossings; scope is not inclusive of ocean or large natural lake borders

What is the best way to secure our borders?

options: barriers (what kind?), patrols, sensors, drones, satellite, turtles with cameras and turrets on their shelves, ...

Depends on how one defines "optimal." The only truly secure border is one with boots on the ground and vehicles stationed along the entire stretch. Ultimately, no amount of walls or technology is going to work without a trained and well equipped human presence within intercept range of every single possible crossing. If you can't manage this, then any technology or wall is a waste of resources.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

BUILD A WALL AND HAVE MEXICO PAY FOR IT
MAGA

/s

 

[Peter]

Live in space?

That'd be pretty secure.

 

[j brown's body]

Most people coming here without documentation aren't crossing the border.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Just regular old patrols, maybe augmented with drones.

Anyone that's tough enough, smart enough, and fast enough to get across the Sonoran desert - let alone do that while getting past CBP - is an *asset* to this country. Our birthrate is potato. Why NOT let the ones in that can figure out a way to do it?

 

[Wayne Jr]

What is the best way to secure our borders?

Be an island and have a strong port authority, like Australia and New Zealand.

If you're not an island then consider that the most secure land border between two countries is the DeMilitarized Zone (DMZ) of North and South Korea. Notice that there is no wall. There is a 4-mile-wide swath of land that is a free-fire zone. Either side can and do target anyone in the DMZ and shoot to kill.

I don't see America doing that with Canada and/or Mexico, so I suspect we will just not ever have secure borders.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Don't try it with Canada.

 

[VanceMack]

Several things. Secure the border. Improve the E-verify system. Fine the hell out of all businesses that knowingly hire illegal immigrants...include jail terms for 2-3 offenses. Work with the government of Mexico to coordinate our economies and encourage private investment in manufacturing in Mexico...creating a more viable trading partner and removing some of the incentive for people to come to the US. And while some people dont want to hear it congress NEEDs to create a legal guest worker status for the 11-20 million illegal immigrants already here in the US.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Several things. Secure the border. Improve the E-verify system. Fine the hell out of all businesses that knowingly hire illegal immigrants...include jail terms for 2-3 offenses. Work with the government of Mexico to coordinate our economies and encourage private investment in manufacturing in Mexico...creating a more viable trading partner and removing some of the incentive for people to come to the US. And while some people dont want to hear it congress NEEDs to create a legal guest worker status for the 11-20 million illegal immigrants already here in the US.

E-Verify is a joke........... and Congress winked it into law.



And then.....there are hundreds of thousands of phony social security cards and drivers licenses. I used to laugh like hell back when I still working for a large contractor and had different workers pull a couple drivers licenses from different states from his/her wallet. It still goes on every day around here.....wink wink.

E-Verify is intended to detect workers without legal status. How do immigrants get around it?

Even when employers utilize the E-Verify system, it has a major weakness: It does not detect when a job applicant is using somebody else’s identity.

www.latimes.com

 

[VanceMack]

E-Verify is a joke........... and Congress winked it into law.

View attachment 67316087

And then.....there are hundreds of thousands of phony social security cards and drivers licenses. I used to laugh like hell back when I still working for a large contractor and had different workers pull a couple drivers licenses from different states from his/her wallet. It still goes on every day around here.....wink wink.

E-Verify is intended to detect workers without legal status. How do immigrants get around it?

Even when employers utilize the E-Verify system, it has a major weakness: It does not detect when a job applicant is using somebody else’s identity.

www.latimes.com

Thats PROBABLY why I said IMPROVE the E-verify system. I'd bet it wouldnt take much to add birthdates and place of birth to the database. ANd if a SSN came back with a wrong birthdate, place of birth, or it was obvious that the SSN 'holder wasnt a 79 year old grandma from Boston, the employer would be held accountable for knowingly hiring an illegal immigrant.

 

[jamesrage]

My sense is that with perhaps some fringe outliers, both Republicans and Democrats favor border control and the disagreement these past four years was on the most efficient way to do it e.g. "a wall works and is the best way" vs. "walls are stupid and easy to climb over, let's do high tech method <tbd>". That said, I felt I wasn't exposed to terribly much debate about the pros and cons of different approaches beyond the statements just made. It's mostly been one side saying we must build a wall because this orange looking dude demanded it at rallies, and the other side saying we must not build a wall because this orange looking dude wants one.

Under the premise that we agree (for the purpose of this discussion) that border control is important and should achieve:
- control of people and goods flowing into and out of the country
- discouraging and preventing illegal goods traffic e.g. drugs, guns
- best balance of effectiveness, cost and maintainability
- relevance over the next 30-50 years in anticipation of both better ways to secure borders AND new technology to circumvent border controls
- mostly concerned with land and river crossings; scope is not inclusive of ocean or large natural lake borders

What is the best way to secure our borders?

options: barriers (what kind?), patrols, sensors, drones, satellite, turtles with cameras and turrets on their shelves, ...

I think we need a mix of solutions. Because only relying one solution will still leave us with other ways people can come here and or stay here illegally. I think we need a mix of solutions that make it hard for people to come and stay here illegal and to make sure they can't benifit from being here illegally.

1. Make sure illegal aliens can't get employment. That means cracking down on the scum who hire illegals. We treat them no different than we do drug dealers and other criminals who profit from and or use their money for illegal activities. That means making those who hire illegal immigrants subject to asset seizure and forfeiture, huge fines and prison time. Fines alone are worthless when employers are basically comitting a crime that saves them money by using illegal labor.

2.Make it extremely hard for illegal immigrants to benefit from being here illegally. In order to get any ID or driver's license you present a birth certificate( in rare cases a non-availability birth certificate where it has been investigated that the individual was born in the US), green card, or certificate of naturalization and social security card.After that require a state issued ID or driver's license in order to the following-

-enroll yourself into school
-enroll your minor kids into school
-apply for welfare,food stamps,section 8 housing and any other tax payer assistance for yourself and or your children
-get a business license,fishing/hunting permit,building permit, license to practice law, food handlers permit, gun license(in states that require a permit to buy a gun),concealed carry permit(in states that require a license to conceal carry) or any other tax payer funded service
-open a bank account, cash a check, use a credit/debit/pre-paid card, apply for a loan,or wire money.
-rent,borrow,lease or buy property
-rent,borrow,lease or buy a motor vehicle.
-get legal documents for yourself or your children.
-get utilities


3.Mandate E-verify for every employer.

4.Repeal part of the immigration and nationality act of 1965 that allows for the chain migration of relatives other than spouse or minor children.This would virtually eliminate anchor babies.

5.Cut off their legal route into the country. Seeing how many of these people here illegally came her on a visa and let it expire we should also cut off visas to citizens of countries we have the most illegal immigration problems with until those numbers go down. It makes absolutely no sense to continue issuing visas to citizens of countries when a huge chunk of those citizens continue to stay here illegally.

6.Cut off their illegal route into the country. Build a wall and have it properly manned.

 

[Kpuppy0001]

My sense is that with perhaps some fringe outliers, both Republicans and Democrats favor border control and the disagreement these past four years was on the most efficient way to do it e.g. "a wall works and is the best way" vs. "walls are stupid and easy to climb over, let's do high tech method <tbd>". That said, I felt I wasn't exposed to terribly much debate about the pros and cons of different approaches beyond the statements just made. It's mostly been one side saying we must build a wall because this orange looking dude demanded it at rallies, and the other side saying we must not build a wall because this orange looking dude wants one.

Under the premise that we agree (for the purpose of this discussion) that border control is important and should achieve:
- control of people and goods flowing into and out of the country
- discouraging and preventing illegal goods traffic e.g. drugs, guns
- best balance of effectiveness, cost and maintainability
- relevance over the next 30-50 years in anticipation of both better ways to secure borders AND new technology to circumvent border controls
- mostly concerned with land and river crossings; scope is not inclusive of ocean or large natural lake borders

What is the best way to secure our borders?

options: barriers (what kind?), patrols, sensors, drones, satellite, turtles with cameras and turrets on their shelves, ...

Getting Uncle Joe and his lacky's to enforce the law as it written and finishing the wall would be a great start. That and cutting off any benefits to anyone who isn't here legally. Cut off the freebies, remove the incentive, it's common sense, but of course common sense isn't that common.

 

[Kpuppy0001]

Several things. Secure the border. Improve the E-verify system. Fine the hell out of all businesses that knowingly hire illegal immigrants...include jail terms for 2-3 offenses. Work with the government of Mexico to coordinate our economies and encourage private investment in manufacturing in Mexico...creating a more viable trading partner and removing some of the incentive for people to come to the US. And while some people dont want to hear it congress NEEDs to create a legal guest worker status for the 11-20 million illegal immigrants already here in the US.

How does rewarding the criminals who crossed illegally deter illegal immigration. Answer it doesn't . When R. Reagan was POTUS an amnesty was granted with the condition that no future amnesty would be granted, yet here we are again. Just the prospect of amnesty is driving caravans of thousands to assail the Southern Border. They don't deserve amnesty, they are criminal trespassers. What they deserve is a catapult and a swift kick in the behind on the way out.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Fine anybody who hires one into bankruptcy.

/thread

You need to understand that there are too many loop holes to ever think the Fed's could possibly control this.

Legal immigrants can open a drywall company for example and take on work as a sub contractor and hire anyone he likes as long as he's providing proof of insurance and workers comp to the General Contractor.

 

[trouble13]

My sense is that with perhaps some fringe outliers, both Republicans and Democrats favor border control and the disagreement these past four years was on the most efficient way to do it e.g. "a wall works and is the best way" vs. "walls are stupid and easy to climb over, let's do high tech method <tbd>". That said, I felt I wasn't exposed to terribly much debate about the pros and cons of different approaches beyond the statements just made. It's mostly been one side saying we must build a wall because this orange looking dude demanded it at rallies, and the other side saying we must not build a wall because this orange looking dude wants one.

Under the premise that we agree (for the purpose of this discussion) that border control is important and should achieve:
- control of people and goods flowing into and out of the country
- discouraging and preventing illegal goods traffic e.g. drugs, guns
- best balance of effectiveness, cost and maintainability
- relevance over the next 30-50 years in anticipation of both better ways to secure borders AND new technology to circumvent border controls
- mostly concerned with land and river crossings; scope is not inclusive of ocean or large natural lake borders

What is the best way to secure our borders?

options: barriers (what kind?), patrols, sensors, drones, satellite, turtles with cameras and turrets on their shelves, ...

Live ammo

 

[What if...?]

You need to understand that there are too many loop holes to ever think the Fed's could possibly control this.

Legal immigrants can open a drywall company for example and take on work as a sub contractor and hire anyone he likes as long as he's providing proof of insurance and workers comp to the General Contractor.

There is ZERO effort to go after employers. Except in cases where one employer drops a dime on another for the purpose of grabbing their market share.

Hell, one of your heroes, can't recall the name right this minute, tried to have the employer sanctions removed from Reagan's amnesty weeks after it passed. Too many businesses that donate to republicans depend on illegal labor for their profits.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Fine anybody who hires one into bankruptcy.

/thread

That would not stop those smuggling contraband from crossing a wide open border.

 

[What if...?]

That would not stop those smuggling contraband from crossing a wide open border.

And the argument can be well made that making things "contraband" have never in history made the situation better. Creating black markets and all the ills associated with them.

And, by the way, telling free people what they can and cannot do with their bodies in the process.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Most people coming here without documentation aren't crossing the border.

Really? How does one “coming here without documentation” enter by other means?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Several things. Secure the border. Improve the E-verify system. Fine the hell out of all businesses that knowingly hire illegal immigrants...include jail terms for 2-3 offenses. Work with the government of Mexico to coordinate our economies and encourage private investment in manufacturing in Mexico...creating a more viable trading partner and removing some of the incentive for people to come to the US. And while some people dont want to hear it congress NEEDs to create a legal guest worker status for the 11-20 million illegal immigrants already here in the US.

Why should those here illegally get priority treatment under a guest worker program? That makes as little sense as giving ‘free’ college and/or job training) to convicted felons instead of those who have not made themselves ‘special’ by having done so.