What is the moral difference between Robert E Lee and German Generals like Herman Goring, Alfred Jodl and Wilhelm Keitel?

[j brown's body]

all you need to know is it the very last word of that post.

The war wasn't over slavery.

No clue what you mean and you can't tell me.

Lincoln, southern leaders and historians say you're wrong.


"All the ordinances make clear that the primary motivation for secession was the rise of a “sectional party” (re: anti-slavery Republican party in the Northern States), and the perception that slavery’s abolition was imminent."

Slavery and Justifications for Southern Secession in Their Own Words | Samuel R. Staley

With the national debate over removing monuments to confederate war heroes dominating headlines, perhaps we need a reminder of the principles and justifications for southern secession for which these men fought. The following excerpts are from the articles of secession adopted by five states...

blog.independent.org

You should ask yourself why you cling to this lie.

 

[CLAX1911]

No clue what you mean

read slowly.

 

[Yes_Minister]

Counting slaves as 3/5 of a person. The north wanted to be counted is zero.

Then why was slavery abolished after the war?

because they wanted that to be right in their country.

And what do they want to do in this new country? Own slaves?

Explain.

Really? I know not everyone is a WW2 history buff, but this is rather basic. Hitler believed that a cabal of Jews secretly controlled the UK, the US, and USSR and were trying to destroy Germany. so he thought he had to go to war with them before they could destroy Germany.

economic issues Lincoln's election states rights tariffs and slavery.

The slavery thing morally damns the other things.

Industrial revolution that's what I did it anyway. It continued on after the Civil war they just called it something else.

Sure and the former Confederates did that by introducing Jim Crow and the sharecropping system in the South.

How long do you think the slaves should have suffered before the South decided it was okay to free them?

 

[Yes_Minister]

Is that a real question - or do you know the answer already?

It's a real question, I don't think there is a moral difference between Nazi Germany and the Confederacy, Nazi Germany is worse because they had more time and better technology, not because of a moral difference. Being a competent military leader who serves an evil regime doesn't make that person a hero.

 

[Rumpel]

Some facts about Rommel:

6. He probably never knew of the plot to kill Hitler.​

As Germany’s military situation deteriorated, a group of senior officials attempted to assassinate Hitler with a briefcase bomb, only to be thwarted at the last moment. Rommel was friends with some of the conspirators and certainly conversed with them about a post-Hitler future. Nonetheless, the full extent of his involvement in the plot remains unknown. (According to his widow, he opposed assassination but wanted Hitler to be arrested and brought to trial.) Whether innocent or not, his name came up during the subsequent Nazi dragnet, prompting Hitler to arrange for his death.

7. Rommel and Allied leaders didn’t hesitate to compliment each other.​

During the height of Rommel’s success in North Africa, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill sang his praises before the House of Commons. “We have a very daring and skillful opponent against us,” Churchill declared, “and, may I say across the havoc of war, a great general.” George Patton, Bernard Montgomery and other top Allied generals likewise expressed their respect for him, and Rommel responded in kind, saying of Patton that “we saw the most astonishing achievement in mobile warfare,” and that “Montgomery never made a serious strategic mistake.”

8. Rommel is still celebrated in Germany.​

Unlike other prominent World War II-era Germans, Rommel has escaped mass vilification. In fact, his name still graces two military bases and several streets in Germany, and a monument in his hometown praises him as “chivalrous,” “brave” and a “victim of tyranny.”

8 Things You May Not Know About Erwin Rommel | HISTORY

On the 70th anniversary of his death get the facts on the famed “Desert Fox.”

www.history.com

 

[CLAX1911]

Then why was slavery abolished after the war?

many things were abolished after the war that doesn't mean that that's what the war was about.

And what do they want to do in this new country? Own slaves?

same thing any new country wants to do govern itself.

Really? I know not everyone is a WW2 history buff, but this is rather basic. Hitler believed that a cabal of Jews secretly controlled the UK, the US, and USSR and were trying to destroy Germany. so he thought he had to go to war with them before they could destroy Germany.

that may be but that's not why the war started. It started when Germany invaded Poland because Hitler had accused the Polish of ethnically cleansing.

I'm not a history buff but I know that

The slavery thing morally damns the other things.

it bothered times shirt but we're talking about something that happened 160 years ago. Nobody had this modern sensibility except for a few abolitionists.

Sure and the former Confederates did that by introducing Jim Crow and the sharecropping system in the South.

yeah so abolishing slavery was not an outcome of the war it just got renamed.

How long do you think the slaves should have suffered before the South decided it was okay to free them?

two or three years longer. Times were changing in the US at least. Slavery is more common now that it used to be. I would say not your country but yeah your country who do you think mines the materials to make the battery your cell phone?

 

[Lafayette]

SURPRISE SURPRISE!

I don't think it could not have survived on its own. Davis despaired of getting the states to act in a unified manner. They had dreams of conquering Mexico and Cuba. It seems very insane.

Surely, if there were a two-country system to replace the "United" States then the south would not have the minimal economic leverage. But, that would suffice them - all they wanted was to keep the slaves. Which probably reduced considerably their Net Income when the slaves were no longer enslaved. Of course, blacks took another hundred years to arrive at the same pay-status as whites.

And they are not quite equal even now. From here: the New York Times

Except:

In 2020, the typical full-time Black worker earned about 20 percent less than a typical full-time white worker. And Black men and women are far less likely than whites to have a job. So the median earnings for Black men in 2019 amounted to only 56 cents for every dollar earned by white men. (Jul 1, 2021)

But, the graphic below says otherwise, that is, blacks are at a higher earnings distribution!

I doubt seriously that it is a question of color. If a black has a postsecondary degree, they will likely get paid the same amount as a white. Or, the company they worked for would have a serious-legal-problem. It is possible, however, that blacks are more determined to obtain a higher salary than whites.

Also, Orientals presently are far, far more mobile into higher paying jobs than either blacks or whites! See here: Year Estimates Selected Population Profiles (2018)

Which could be due to the lower population level than whites?

Nonetheless, as shown clearly below, in fact, the black-population has a higher income-distribution status than whites. Surprise, surprise!

From Pew Research here:

 

[WillyPete]

What is the moral difference between Robert E Lee and German Generals like Alfred Jodl and Wilhelm Keitel?

Hermann Göring - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Alfred Jodl - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wilhelm Keitel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'll toss in that very likely they all felt morally justified in their actions and choices.

So what's that tell you about morality?

 

[Yes_Minister]

many things were abolished after the war that doesn't mean that that's what the war was about.

You didn't answer my question.

same thing any new country wants to do govern itself.

So did the Nazis have the right to pass Numerberg laws?

that may be but that's not why the war started. It started when Germany invaded Poland because Hitler had accused the Polish of ethnically cleansing.

Yeah and that came from the same racist ideology that lead to the Holocaust, the Nazis thought they were being oppressed by lesser races.

I'm not a history buff but I know that

it bothered times shirt but we're talking about something that happened 160 years ago. Nobody had this modern sensibility except for a few abolitionists.

Well, then you should be fine with putting Confederate statutes in a museum then if this doesn't bother you.

yeah so abolishing slavery was not an outcome of the war it just got renamed.

And who's fault is that? It's the former Confederates who attacked reconstruction and wanted to reimpose racial hierarchy.

The US would be way better off if the South had not destroyed reconstruction.

two or three years longer. Times were changing in the US at least. Slavery is more common now that it used to be. I would say not your country but yeah your country who do you think mines the materials to make the battery your cell phone?

What is the basis for your timetable?

And why did bring up cell phone materials, do you want to end the economic exploitation of the developing world as well?

 

[ColdHardTruth]

What is the moral difference between Robert E Lee and German Generals like Alfred Jodl and Wilhelm Keitel?

Hermann Göring - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Alfred Jodl - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wilhelm Keitel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The German generals, as nasty as they were, were not traitors to their county. Lee was absolutely a traitor. All of them were racists of the highest caliber and most were terrible human beings. Lee did not commit murder on a massive scale, the Germans did.

Lee wasn't executed for his crimes, Jodl and Keitel were. Goering would have been but he took the coward's way out.

Lee probably should have died a traitor's death. This would have sent a message to those responsible for the confederacy that treason ends badly.

 

[CLAX1911]

You didn't answer my question.

I did you just didn't like the answer.

So did the Nazis have the right to pass Numerberg laws?

Have the right?

Yeah and that came from the same racist ideology that lead to the Holocaust, the Nazis thought they were being oppressed by lesser races.

no no no. Not oppress, I said ethnically cleanse. I don't know that that was happening I don't think it was that's just what Hitler said.

Well, then you should be fine with putting Confederate statutes in a museum then if this doesn't bother you.

if a city decides to remove a statue I don't care. If vandals do it because they have nothing better to do they should be arrested.

And who's fault is that?

if you're going to answer your own questions with whatever you want quit crying to me about not answering the way you want me to.

The US would be way better off if the South had not destroyed reconstruction.

I don't think so. The doors are part of the US is still dealing with segregation because all of the laws regarding that were directed at the South. They completely ignored the races of the North you've done it too.

What is the basis for your timetable?

industrial revolution. That's really what abolished slavery.

And why did bring up cell phone materials, do you want to end the economic exploitation of the developing world as well?

well was the north justified and fighting the South if they were fighting them over slavery?

Why is slavery not okay in the Southern United States but it is in the cargo?

So you can have a cheaper phone or an electric car?

At the time of the Civil war had the time leading up to it that was just the economic exploration of the developing world.

 

[Yes_Minister]

I did you just didn't like the answer.

No you dodged. Why did slavery end after the Civil War?

Have the right?

The Nazis ran Germany in 1935, do you think them passing the Nuremberg laws was okay, because Germany was it's own country?

no no no. Not oppress, I said ethnically cleanse. I don't know that that was happening I don't think it was that's just what Hitler said.

No, you misread, Hitler thought Jews and Poles were lesser races that were oppressing the German people, that is why he started the war. Hitler thought the Jews made Germany lose WW1 and after the war, Germany gave up territory to Poland.

Also Hitler wanted Eastern Europeans to be slave races, how is that different than the Confederates wanting black people to be a slave race?

if a city decides to remove a statue I don't care. If vandals do it because they have nothing better to do they should be arrested.

if you're going to answer your own questions with whatever you want quit crying to me about not answering the way you want me to.

Who created the share cropping system after the war is not a fair question?

I don't think so. The doors are part of the US is still dealing with segregation because all of the laws regarding that were directed at the South. They completely ignored the races of the North you've done it too.

But the Jim Crow laws started in the South with the black codes.

industrial revolution. That's really what abolished slavery.

Where is your evidence to back this up?

well was the north justified and fighting the South if they were fighting them over slavery?

Why is slavery not okay in the Southern United States but it is in the cargo?

So you can have a cheaper phone or an electric car?

At the time of the Civil war had the time leading up to it that was just the economic exploration of the developing world.

So what do you propose be done to end exploitation in the third world or are you deflecting?

 

[CLAX1911]

No you dodged. Why did slavery end after the Civil War?

Im going to give you the same answer.

It didn't. It just changed names.

The Nazis ran Germany in 1935, do you think them passing the Nuremberg laws was okay, because Germany was it's own country?

No.

No, you misread,

no I didn't you are saying something different that I said.

Also Hitler wanted Eastern Europeans to be slave races, how is that different than the Confederates wanting black people to be a slave race?

Question seems loaded rephrase if you want an answer.

Who created the share cropping system after the war is not a fair question?

couldn't have been the Confederates they were defeated and disbanded

But the Jim Crow laws started in the South with the black codes.

And?

Where is your evidence to back this up?

you doubt the industrial revolution happened?

So what do you propose be done to end exploitation in the third world or are you deflecting?

I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy you're so good slavery and it's so bad except for what you need a cell phone, you're a cheap pair of shoes or some produce from South of the border.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

What is the moral difference between Robert E Lee and German Generals like Alfred Jodl and Wilhelm Keitel?

Hermann Göring - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Alfred Jodl - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wilhelm Keitel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I could be wrong but if I'm not mistaken, Lee told his Confederates to STOP BEING Confederates after the war, told his wife that he did not want to be buried in Confederate uniform and was opposed to erecting monuments to Confederate heroes.

 

[Juin]

What is the moral difference between Robert E Lee and German Generals like Alfred Jodl and

What is the moral difference between Gen Patton and Gen Rommel? I say none. They were soldiers. Unless your point is to hold soldiers answerable for decisions made by the political leadership?

Same: what's the moral difference between Eisenhower and Jodl?

 

[Yes_Minister]

Im going to give you the same answer.

It didn't. It just changed names.

Why was that case? I keep on asking questions to make you think, not give me canned answers.

No.

So if the Confederates got their own country, would that make slavery okay in the Confederacy?

no I didn't you are saying something different that I said.

No, you don't understand why Hitler went to war.

Question seems loaded rephrase if you want an answer.

Okay, what's the difference between Confederates enslaving black people and Nazis enslaving Eastern Europeans?

couldn't have been the Confederates they were defeated and disbanded

But the former Confederates created the share cropping system.

And?

you doubt the industrial revolution happened?

No, I doubt that would make the Confederates free their slaves within 3 years.

The Industrial revolution did not stop the Nazis from using slaves in WW2.

I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy you're so good slavery and it's so bad except for what you need a cell phone, you're a cheap pair of shoes or some produce from South of the border.

And you could say it's hypocritical to have Stalin as an ally when he is a dictator in WW2 when UK and the US said they were fighting Axis tyranny. Does that make both sides morally equal? This is a dodge, not a point.

 

[CLAX1911]

Why was that case?

why was what the case?

I keep on asking questions to make you think

And failing. It's rather remedial the stuff you're asking

not give me canned answers.

if you don't like my answers that's your problem.

If you keep asking the same questions I'm going to keep giving you the same answers in fact I'm going to copy and paste them from now on.

If you don't want that anymore maybe it's time to do something else for the rest of your day

So if the Confederates got their own country, would that make slavery okay in the Confederacy?

the Confederates had their own country.

No, you don't understand why Hitler went to war.

so you want me to echo back here propaganda to you but that's never going to happen so maybe it's time for you to find something else to do with the rest of your day.

Okay, what's the difference between Confederates enslaving black people and Nazis enslaving Eastern Europeans?

this seems like a loaded question rephrase if you want an answer.

But the former Confederates created the share cropping system.

proving slavery wasn't abolished by the Civil war it just changed names.

No, I doubt that would make the Confederates free their slaves within 3 years.

doubt whatever you want.

The Industrial revolution did not stop the Nazis from using slaves in WW2.

it it doesn't stop China from using them today what's your point?

And you could say it's hypocritical to have Stalin as an ally when he is a dictator in WW2 when UK and the US said they were fighting Axis tyranny. Does that make both sides morally equal? This is a dodge, not a point.

I'm pointing out how are you currently are bit of fitting from slavery that's happening right now. How are you better than the Confederates?

 

[Tigerace117]

So did the North. Slavery wasn't the issue that the civil war was fought over.

The South EXPLICITLY stated they were fighting to defend slavery.

 

[Tigerace117]

And what about Erwin Rommel?
And what about Claus Graf Schenk von Staufenberg?
And what about Hindenburg?
Etc etc etc ....

Whose been massively whitewashed.

Who was perfectly okay with Germany conquering and colonizing Poland.

Etc.

 

[Tigerace117]

What is the moral difference between Gen Patton and Gen Rommel? I say none. They were soldiers. Unless your point is to hold soldiers answerable for decisions made by the political leadership?

Same: what's the moral difference between Eisenhower and Jodl?

One was fighting for a regime that was murdering tens of millions of innocent people and the other.....wasn’t.

“Just following orders” isn’t an excuse.

 

[Yes_Minister]

why was what the case?
And failing. It's rather remedial the stuff you're asking

if you don't like my answers that's your problem.

If you keep asking the same questions I'm going to keep giving you the same answers in fact I'm going to copy and paste them from now on.

If you don't want that anymore maybe it's time to do something else for the rest of your day

the Confederates had their own country.


so you want me to echo back here propaganda to you but that's never going to happen so maybe it's time for you to find something else to do with the rest of your day.

this seems like a loaded question rephrase if you want an answer.

proving slavery wasn't abolished by the Civil war it just changed names.

doubt whatever you want.
it it doesn't stop China from using them today what's your point?
I'm pointing out how are you currently are bit of fitting from slavery that's happening right now. How are you better than the Confederates?

Dude, you are just dodging and playing dumb (and no I am not saying you are dumb, I am saying that you are pretending to know less to bog things down in nonsense) to avoiding answering pretty simple questions. Let me know when you want a straight forward conversation.

 

[Juin]

One was fighting for a regime that was murdering tens of millions of innocent people and the other.....wasn’t.

The political leadership answers to that.

“Just following orders” isn’t an excuse.

Of course it is.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

Whose been massively whitewashed.

Who was perfectly okay with Germany conquering and colonizing Poland.

Etc.

The political leadership answers to that.

What does this even mean?

Of course it is.

No, it's not. That didn't stop the Nazis from being hung then and it wouldn't now.,

 

[Juin]

It's a real question, I don't think there is a moral difference between Nazi Germany and the Confederacy, Nazi Germany is worse because they had more time and better technology, not because of a moral difference. Being a competent military leader who serves an evil regime doesn't make that person a hero.

If your question is over the moral difference between Nazi Germany and the Confederacy, then say so. If you are comparing two soldiers, then the comparison has to be in how they fought as soldiers.

I think you are comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Juin]

What does this even mean?

Exactly that. The US political leadership answers for the campaign against Iraq, not the soldiers.

No, it's not. That didn't stop the Nazis from being hung then and it wouldn't now.,

The "Nazis", yes. No German soldier was hung for just being a soldier