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what is Socialism?

Partisan

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Ok, define "survival instinct" and prove how it inevitably clashes with socialism.

I'm not here to do your term paper for you, survival of the fittest speaks for itself....;)
Sorry, I have to leave for work now so I can fill the government coffers....
We wouldn't want any handouts to be late.....:)
 
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Partisan said:
I'm not here to do your term paper for you, survival of the fittest speaks for itself....

So basically you aren't willing to support your assertion. Moreover, if you knew anything of survival of the fittest you would realize that it has absolutely nothing to do with implicit competition and actually accounts for cooperation, as well. For example, some species that have communal instincts will be able to survive in a given environment as opposed to some that don't. Of course, this is all irrelevant, because humans for hundreds of thousands of years have been able to overcome their most basic instincts due to the ability to use their brain.

Your "assertion" is full of more holes than Swiss cheese. No wonder you refuse to defend it.

EDIT: Of course if you want to get into a discussion of "survival of the fittest" I would be more than happy to correct you and educate you on what that actually means, because based on how you've used it here you clearly don't understand it.
 
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katiegrrl0

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Ok, let me rephrase my statement because you clearly didn't understand it:

Prove that human nature exists.



If it is socially constructed then it is not natural and thus not the "nature" of humans.

the thread is not about human nature but i will answer it anyway.

human nature is a construct of a person. what is natural to you may not be natural to me. it is a statement trying to define the human condition. it has little to do with nature or natural. in that sense you are correct. i see human nature as what is natural to a person. i am lesbian that is natural to me. a heterosexual person may see that as unnatural. so we do i guess agree.
 

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when i read posts about socialism in America and this politician being socialist or that one. I am constantly amazed at how little most of the posters on this forum actually know about the topic. I really think that maybe only 3% have a clue. of those 3% maybe only have of them have a working understanding of socialism.

most of the statements are uneducated and guess work. they relate little of what socialism is. for the sake of everyone maybe some off you would make an effort to try and learn something about the topic before you jump in with both feet calling someone a socialist.

for the sake of debate. please tell me what you actually think it is. Thanks.

we can always use a good laugh.

Thought I'm not a political academic. I'll give it the old college try.

Realize that trying to define Socialism is difficult. The definitions of the term are as numerous as those who advocate and oppose the movement.

Professor Dewey Davis once said: "It has never seemed to me possible to define the word so as to make it serviceable for general discussion...the discussion has gone to far and the term is too widespread for any one definition."

Let's see if I can please the *expert* with my definition(s):

First, "Socialism" comes in many forms and stripes. To which are referring, specifically?

-The Basic definition, as a system or theoretical amalgam referring to, or of the ownership and operation of the means of production and distribution; by a society or the community, rather than by private individuals, with all members of society or the community sharing in the work and the products.

-State Socialism? Which is essentially an economic system in which the government owns most means of production,but some degree of private capitalism is allowed.

-Democratic Socialism? A political ideology that emphasizes the principle of equality and usually prescribes a large role for government to intervene in society, which is one where people maintain various degrees of freedom.

-National Socialism? Nazism is a form of socialism featuring racism and expansionism and obedience to a strong leader.

-Utopian (or ideal) Socialism? Which is socialism achieved by voluntary sacrifice.

-Guild Socialism? A form of socialist theory advocating state ownership of industry but managements by guilds of workers.

For anyone who doesn't understand socialism/communism, should read "Animal Farm".

Oh, and Katie, starting a thread by inferring that you are among the elite "3%" that "get it" is usually a turn-off for anyone looking to answer to the thread. Just a hint.

However, I was so turned off by your arrogance, I decided to answer.
 
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katiegrrl0 said:
the thread is not about human nature but i will answer it anyway.

human nature is a construct of a person. what is natural to you may not be natural to me. it is a statement trying to define the human condition. it has little to do with nature or natural. in that sense you are correct. i see human nature as what is natural to a person. i am lesbian that is natural to me. a heterosexual person may see that as unnatural. so we do i guess agree.

Yes we do agree so stop splitting hairs. :p
 

katiegrrl0

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Yup, that's true.....;)

and so from that i find that most people in the US have little understanding of other forms of governance. they make statements like Obama is a socialist when he clearly is not even close. his ideas are totally different. yet Americans happen to believe to a degree that Obama is. that is wrong and very wrong at that. the health care system that is now being discussed is not socialism either. Many Americans believe that it is because they have no idea what they are talking about.
 

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I like this idea and will adopt it. When ever I address a topic, I will be sure to state that I am a Heterosexual, so people will understand the basis for my view. we are defined by our sexual orientation, correct? :cool:
 

katiegrrl0

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Good point---People are trained to believe what they are told, and to then defend that belief, not matter what the facts may be---Insecurity does that to people.

a truth that is universal.
when kids are told or hear parents and grandparents talking about Socialism and Communism they glean information that for the most part is wrong. they grow up thinking that it is true and will defend to the death the ideas that they heard are true. they do not seek out a true knowledge.

it passes from generation to generation as truth. i think that it would make debate far better if people had an actual grasp of what it is they are saying.
 

katiegrrl0

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Tough if you don't like my answers, I happen to believe the U.S. is the greatest country....;)
I haven't seen you contribute anything of substance, two posts & then a threat to shut me up............:doh
If you don't like the term 'human nature', how abou 'survival instinct'?......:confused:

you have a perfect right to believe that the US is the greatest country. that's fine. the question is do you know what socialism is in the real sense or is it your best guess when you talk about it. do you really know how that system works and how it pertains to the lives of people who live in a socialistic state or nation?
 

katiegrrl0

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I'm not here to do your term paper for you, survival of the fittest speaks for itself....;)
Sorry, I have to leave for work now so I can fill the government coffers....
We wouldn't want any handouts to be late.....:)

the handouts come from the form of government you have. within a true socialist or for that matter a true communist state there would be very little of that.
 

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you have a perfect right to believe that the US is the greatest country. that's fine. the question is do you know what socialism is in the real sense or is it your best guess when you talk about it. do you really know how that system works and how it pertains to the lives of people who live in a socialistic state or nation?

Hey, I am waiting on a reply.
 

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a truth that is universal.
when kids are told or hear parents and grandparents talking about Socialism and Communism they glean information that for the most part is wrong. they grow up thinking that it is true and will defend to the death the ideas that they heard are true. they do not seek out a true knowledge.

it passes from generation to generation as truth. i think that it would make debate far better if people had an actual grasp of what it is they are saying.
So, your point is for Kids to not listen and learn from their Parents?
 

katiegrrl0

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Thought I'm not a political academic. I'll give it the old college try.

Realize that trying to define Socialism is difficult. The definitions of the term are as numerous as those who advocate and oppose the movement.

Professor Dewey Davis once said: "It has never seemed to me possible to define the word so as to make it serviceable for general discussion...the discussion has gone to far and the term is too widespread for any one definition."

Let's see if I can please the *expert* with my definition(s):

First, "Socialism" comes in many forms and stripes. To which are referring, specifically?

-The Basic definition, as a system or theoretical amalgam referring to, or of the ownership and operation of the means of production and distribution; by a society or the community, rather than by private individuals, with all members of society or the community sharing in the work and the products.

-State Socialism? Which is essentially an economic system in which the government owns most means of production,but some degree of private capitalism is allowed.

-Democratic Socialism? A political ideology that emphasizes the principle of equality and usually prescribes a large role for government to intervene in society, which is one where people maintain various degrees of freedom.

-National Socialism? Nazism is a form of socialism featuring racism and expansionism and obedience to a strong leader.

-Utopian (or ideal) Socialism? Which is socialism achieved by voluntary sacrifice.

-Guild Socialism? A form of socialist theory advocating state ownership of industry but managements by guilds of workers.

For anyone who doesn't understand socialism/communism, should read "Animal Farm".

Oh, and Katie, starting a thread by inferring that you are among the elite "3%" that "get it" is usually a turn-off for anyone looking to answer to the thread. Just a hint.

However, I was so turned off by your arrogance, I decided to answer.

well done post. it is excellent.

perhaps the way i phrased the OP wrongly and seemed arrogant. that was not the intent. i have lived in semi socialist nations for a lot of my life. i have been involved as a member of socialist parties ans communist parities most of my adult life. most people in the US do not have this in their background. so though not having meant to sound all knowing i did. for that i was wrong.

i do think that having been part of that government system i do have an experience that many do not.

thanks for your great response.
 

katiegrrl0

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I like this idea and will adopt it. When ever I address a topic, I will be sure to state that I am a Heterosexual, so people will understand the basis for my view. we are defined by our sexual orientation, correct? :cool:

i have been all my life. i used that as an example of natural and unnatural in the eyes of people. you have taken what i was saying out of context.
 

katiegrrl0

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So, your point is for Kids to not listen and learn from their Parents?

no my point is for children to seek truth and not live on hear say. when you are a child you learn what you are taught. when you are an adult you seek out and find out if what you learned was true. it is better than making statements about things that you have no clue about or are totally wrong about
 

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well done post. it is excellent.

perhaps the way i phrased the OP wrongly and seemed arrogant. that was not the intent. i have lived in semi socialist nations for a lot of my life. i have been involved as a member of socialist parties ans communist parities most of my adult life. most people in the US do not have this in their background. so though not having meant to sound all knowing i did. for that i was wrong.

i do think that having been part of that government system i do have an experience that many do not.

thanks for your great response.

Sure. I think your anger toward Americans that call democratic/liberal policies or initiatives "socialist" is based off ignorance in some cases; I'll grant you that. Most folks probably don't understand the difference between Socialist/Marxist/Communist.

However, there is some validity to call some initiatives by democrats (and even some republicans) "more socialistic"...or having "socialist elements". It's not a completely false argument, regardless if the person understands the construct(s) of what they are talking about or not.

Universal health care is a socialist program...or at least more socialist than our current system.

Welfare is a socialist program; it redistributes money to those who do not produce from those who do. Farm Subsidizing is a Socialist program. It provides money to those who fail to produce from those who succeed. Free College is a Socialist program. It provides opportunity for those who have none by taking opportunity from those who have them. Affirmative action is a socialist program because it places the criticality of equality before potential or merit.

Now, some of these programs are now stalwarts of our nation and won't be changed. Are we a socialist nation? Not entirely.

I think that the anti-Obama populist movement has made words like "socialist" more of a derogatory buzzword that invokes fear and outrage, more than anything.
 

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no my point is for children to seek truth and not live on hear say. when you are a child you learn what you are taught. when you are an adult you seek out and find out if what you learned was true. it is better than making statements about things that you have no clue about or are totally wrong about
For Our Children, we do represent the truth. If not the Parents, then who has the "truth" in your book.
 

katiegrrl0

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Sure. I think your anger toward Americans that call democratic/liberal policies or initiatives "socialist" is based off ignorance in some cases; I'll grant you that. Most folks probably don't understand the difference between Socialist/Marxist/Communist.

However, there is some validity to call some initiatives by democrats (and even some republicans) "more socialistic"...or having "socialist elements". It's not a completely false argument, regardless if the person understands the construct(s) of what they are talking about or not.

Universal health care is a socialist program...or at least more socialist than our current system.

Welfare is a socialist program; it redistributes money to those who do not produce from those who do. Farm Subsidizing is a Socialist program. It provides money to those who fail to produce from those who succeed. Free College is a Socialist program. It provides opportunity for those who have none by taking opportunity from those who have them. Affirmative action is a socialist program because it places the criticality of equality before potential or merit.

Now, some of these programs are now stalwarts of our nation and won't be changed. Are we a socialist nation? Not entirely.

I think that the anti-Obama populist movement has made words like "socialist" more of a derogatory buzzword that invokes fear and outrage, more than anything.

i may define things more sharply as to what is and what isn't socialism.

i do see that the health care as is stated is somewhat more socialistic in it's nature. i see it as a social program to account for the grand disparity of wealth in the US. it is more an adjustment rather than a socialistic standard.

a move toward socialism would be to adjust incomes to a median range where all are guaranteed they same protection. as long as there is the skewed wealth base in the US there will always be social adjustments. FDR did those. many others have done similar programs.

i do agree that what you say may well have some basis. it is not necessarily not knowing it is a shift in government that is being seen as more socialistic in nature and form.

i guess the statement that really gets me most is that Obama is a socialist. he is not and is not even close to that. this gives me the signal that many have no idea what they are talking about.
again nice post.
 

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For anyone who doesn't understand socialism/communism, should read "Animal Farm".

I'd say that Animal Farm is more about government corruption and why pure communism can't work, more than an explanation of socialism or communism.

Minor quibble, though, about an otherwise awesome post.
 

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For Our Children, we do represent the truth. If not the Parents, then who has the "truth" in your book.

parents teach what they assume to be truth. it is not my fault that parents teach about something they know little about.

did your parents teach you that Columbus discovered America? if so that is the first lie they taught you. later they tried to teach you about socialism and that was more than likely a lie as well.
 

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If I could just step in here... With a definition I concocted.

Socialism aims to transfer the means of production from individual hands, to a collective ownership. Recently, Happy-Faced Socialism has broadened its appeal by refusing to acquire industries for The State but for The People. This is to differentiate it between Communism, and certainly many academics have written at length pn the myriad of complexities that make Socialism a distant cousin from Uncle Joe Gulag Communism. However, the end result, for me and you, is generally the same.

I think the problem some people have with differentiating socialism with capitalism could be expressed best by someone other than me:...

"Si proprium est quod quis libra mercatus et aere est,
quaedam, si credis consultis, mancipat usus:
qui te pascit ager, tuus est; et vilicus Orbi
cum segees occat tibi mox frumenta daturas,
te dominum sentit, das nummos: accipis uvam
pullos ova, cadum temetic."
(Lines 158-163)

[From the versus of Horace]

"If that which one buys with formal purchase is one's own,
If usage confers title to things, as the lawyers maintain;
Then the farm which feeds you is yours; and the farmer,
when he cultivates the field which soon will give you grain, feels you are his master."

Is this capitalism? People buy what they want, when they want too with the price they intend.

Or is this socialism? People own what they want, when they want it and for the "price" they intend. The farmer doesn't feel his right, but 'the People' certainly do.

This is a mere misconception of natural ownership of consumer goods versus production goods. In capitalism, the consumer does not have a "right," to the grain of the farmer. In socialism, the consumer does.

[The above example is, truly, capitalism; consumerism of Ancient Greece]
 
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I'd say that Animal Farm is more about government corruption and why pure communism can't work, more than an explanation of socialism or communism.

Minor quibble, though, about an otherwise awesome post.

Orwell's allegory is based on Russia (the revolution), prior to WWII. Orwell himself was a Labour Party Socialist...but hated Stalin, like many western Europeans and saw the evil in him, though he helped defeat Hitler. The theme of the book is essentially corruption among leadership and how it can ruin a revolution.

But...you are basically right; considering the "some animals are more equal than others" epitaph...I love that one.

However, it is a good illustration of the perils of socialistic labor environments. Some of the animals work harder than others, but are paid the same. Promises are constantly made by the pigs and "the collective effort" is stressed throughout. The Windmill project is a classic example of the failures of collective efforts. Orwell's essential message is that corrupt leadership can destroy the effort to create utopian socialism...however the inherent flaws of that idea are obvious throughout the book.
 
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