What does Zionist mean?

mbig · Jul 14, 2013

Rainman05 said:
Ok. You tell me how blind support for a country is ever a good thing?
Even blind support for your own country is a bad thing because people can manipulate your emotions into making you think that what they do is "patriotic" or in any way good for the country, when in fact, it may not be. And you should know better. /...

That's complete BS, like all your posts on the topic.
AS I SAID several times, even those ie, who Disagree with settlements and a return to the 1967 borders Are ZIONISTS in that they support the existence if "NOT" all the policies of the state.

ie, Over the last few years, I am one of the most 'ardent zionists' on this message board: 2200 posts in the section.
I do NOT "blindly support Israel".
I have Many times Blamed Israel's current (and re-elected) PM for the negotiation Impasse and said HE is the main reason there is No peace.
ie
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/88036-netanyahu-has-rejected-one-u-s-package-too-many.html
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...-one-u-s-package-too-many.html#post1059170098
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...overnment-rejecting-peace.html#post1061414882

me in link immediately above which also cites a previous posting said:
I am not at all satisfied this Israeli govt wants peace/two states on anything but surrender terms.
Stlll in the state of mind of Piers Morgan that Israel/Netanyahu "should be the big guy here".
Until he does, I am of THIS State of mind, still:

A reasonable offer would flush out the Palestinians if, as CJ 2.0 contends, they don't want peace.
And until the last few years I would have agreed.
However, the 'Palestine Papers' revealed Abbas & co Were willing to give away the kitchen sink/so much it was embarrassing to them.
So an offer by Israel would be in order any time, IMO.

And there are more.
+
Alan Dershowitz: When Legit Criticism Crosses the Anti-Semitism Line
When Legit Criticism Crosses the Anti-Semitism Line

It's interesting how quickly the bigots -- Jews and non-Jews alike -- crawl out from under their rocks as soon as Israel is mentioned.
The newest form of bigotry is to claim that I and others who Generally support Israel argue that "anyone who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite."
This is a bald-faced Lie.
I always criticize specific Israeli policies, Israeli leaders, and Israeli actions.
Most Israelis criticize specific policies.
Israel is among the most self-critical countries in the world. Several years ago, I offered a large monetary award (payable to the PLO) for anyone who could actually come up with a quote by a prominent pro-Israeli writer who equated mere criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. No one came to collect the reward, because no respectable person has ever made this absurd claim.
As Thomas Friedman of The New York Times accurately put it,

"Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction -- out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East -- is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest"
[...the balance...]

So please, spare us the Bizarro takes on Israel/Zionism/Judaism.

alexa · Jul 14, 2013

Rainman05 said:
if you mean put my emotions in a bag, yes, I don't have emotions for online discourse. Emotions are for my family, friends and real life companions and at certain periods in time, my work.

That is very unusual. Generally speaking people have feelings concerning their values. Feelings generally cannot be turned on and off as you claim without drugs....or to have absolutely no interest in the subject or to be 'living in your head' that is cut of from your feelings.

Rainman05 said:
Again, it's not ethnic nationalism in itself that is bad. it's the way it can be implement that makes it bad.

It is ethnic nationalism itself which is bad. It sees one ethnicity as superior to the others and generally tries to get rid of any it does not think belongs to it's ethnicity by one way or another.

Rainman05 said:
I cannot control you and what you will feel offended by. It's not within my power, so I don't bother. FYI. When someone says that they are offended, they are announcing that they are not in control of their emotions so someone has to regulate that for them. It's a sign of mental fragility.

No, they are saying they feel. The only people who do not feel are as I explained in the beginning. If you live in a world of no feeling it is pretty much the realm of the psychopath. I would feel offended if you said I was engaged in bad or ethnic nationalism for instance because I am aware of what such Nationalism leads to. You would be insulting me. Now the fact that you are unaware of that leads me to believe that you must hurt a lot of people unknowingly because you are unable to feel for them. You appear to be unable to feel empathy.

With respect to control, we have both feelings and emotions. Now feelings are the most genuine part of us and we need to feel to be ourselves. Emotions however are a reaction. They can be appropriate or inappropriate. If they are appropriate and particularly if the person is a feeling person, there is no loss of control. Indeed in order to be authentic in one's feelings it is necessary not to hold on to them but let them go where honesty takes them. I would suggest that only when a person is shutting off their feelings, that is not being honest to them, to suddenly start would no doubt lead to loss of control because they had not before been allowed freedom. For instance, a person who does not feel able to honestly express their anger when it comes along will eventually erupt in rage.

Rainman05 said:
religious nationalism. something you can observe in islam for instance or in hinduism.

ok

Rainman05 said:
The conclusion of what you end up. It doesn't matter why you are a zionist, all that matters is that you are. The motives why you are can be as varied as anything.

I don't get this.

Rainman05 said:
No... ethnic nationalism comes inherent with every ethnicity. How we chose to manifest it is up to us.

No it doesn't. To be frank you are sounding a bit like a stormfronter/white nationalist including the new white nationalists now.

Rainman05 said:
I really tried to avoid bringing up WW2 events as much as possible because once we fall down that rabbit hole, the whole thread goes to hell because WW2 discussions are like an internet virus.

You ignore things even if they are part of the discussion.

Rainman05 said:
The holocaust has nothing to do with Christianity.

You believe, wrongly, the holocaust had no effect on Christianity.

Rainman05 said:
People have been trying to promote the existence or illegality of Israel ever since it was founded using all manner of reasons. The dumbest reason is that the OT in the Bible is a sort of a real-estate document. Which it isn't.

It is a very strong reason given. I doubt you will find many willing to accept that this is not so or the C of S would not have suffered such hell fire.

Rainman05 said:
As for anti-semitism. Anti-semitism doesn't start just like that. Anti-semitism started because of a chain of events, and endless cycle. Here's a scenario.
The rabbinic order encourages jews to remain segregated. People distrust other people who are not like them. Tensions start to form. The rabbinic order, because of the rising tensions, promotes more segregation in ghettos. Jews should marry jews and keep it all in the "family" as it were. tensions keep rising. Do you see where I'm going with it?

Eventually people start justifying hatred against the jews and pogroms ensue, hailed and encouraged by people, members of the clergy most likely, who wish to gain political power at that time. It's easy to promote violence against an group that self-segregates and gives reasons for doubt... and with the right quotes and manipulation of the rhetoric from a very old holy book, even easier.

This is of course, a scenario. One I think it's very common in history.

Point is Rainman, I did not speak about why it started, I said it was and that due to the strength of Christian antisemitism throughout history, Christians felt horrified by the holocaust through guilt of how they themselves had been and that this led to them until very recently feeling unable to criticise Israel. That was the point I was making not any argument on why there ever was antisemitism.

wbcoleman · Jul 14, 2013

Rainman05 said:
1)Yes, I am saying that if someone were to show blind support for Israel, I would call him a zionist. I wouldn't use it as an insult however, just a way of expressing what he is. It's really not that hard to identify people who are zionists, I find. You just look at what they say about Israel or the arab nations around it. Are the polarized? Then most likely they are zionists. If they do take offense from it, well, I can't please everyone. It is not meant as an offense however.

I do not agree with the OP's premise that zionist is an offensive term that denotes evil. Nationalism or better say, blind support for a cause you have no reason to be invested in is not a sign of evil, just a sign of stupidity.

The term zionist can only be considered an offense in areas where the islamic media and anti-israeli culture is prevalent.

2)Not really. Nationalism is of many kinds. there is good and bad nationalism. It doesn't have to be just ethnic nationalism.

3) Yes, there are different reasons. But they all point to the same conclusion. It doesn't matter why you are a zionist, it matters that you are. You can have all manner of motives. Religious. Ethnic. Cultural. Societal. Political. etc.

The evidence lies in the fact that there are jews who aren't zionists. So it can't be just an ethnic thing. And as you said, there are Christians who are zionists... and there are Christians who aren't. So it can't be just an religious thing.

Best guess, to each person is different, but each person who is a zionist finds the idea appealing.

It has nothing to do with "blind" support of Israel. Modern Zionism has always been a political movement which sought the establishment of a Jewish state. Within Israel, "non-Zionist" parties are simply those which seek to dismantle the state and replace it with something else.

wbcoleman · Jul 14, 2013

TheDemSocialist said:
Not all Israelis and Israeli groups are zionists.

Probably 95-98% of such people are Israeli Arabs. Literally anti-Zionist Israeli Jews are pretty scarce. Most of them a Haredim such as Naturei Karta.

AmericanbyChoic · Jul 14, 2013

Gardener said:
Zionism is the term referring to the establishment of a state for the Jewish people in their homeland. A Zionist, therefore, is anybody who supports the establishment of such a state.

People who try to pervert the meaning of the term into something sinister do so out of hatred. If one supports a France for the French or a Japan for the Japanese, there is nothing the least bit problematical with supporting an Israel for the Jewish people.

Yes… "Zoinist" is left-think Code for "Dirty JEWS!"…

This is also the case for "Corporation" "BANK" and "THE RICH!"

thinkforyoursel · Jul 14, 2013

AmericanbyChoic said:
Yes… "Zoinist" is left-think Code for "Dirty JEWS!"…

This is also the case for "Corporation" "BANK" and "THE RICH!"

Nah....Zionism is more about oppression ...like I said it's akin to slavery and brutality!!
Bottom line is ....Zionist is a derogatory word!

wbcoleman · Jul 15, 2013

thinkforyoursel said:
Nah....Zionism is more about oppression ...like I said it's akin to slavery and brutality!!
Bottom line is ....Zionist is a derogatory word!

Sort of like "Jew"!

What does Zionist mean?

mbig

onomatopoeic

alexa

wbcoleman

wbcoleman

AmericanbyChoic

thinkforyoursel

wbcoleman

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