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What does Zionist mean?

jetski

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I hear a lot of people use this word, but they all seem to mean different things.

Even the definitions in wikipedia seem myriad.

What does Zionist mean?
 

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I hear a lot of people use this word, but they all seem to mean different things.

Even the definitions in wikipedia seem myriad.

What does Zionist mean?
Zionism is the term referring to the establishment of a state for the Jewish people in their homeland. A Zionist, therefore, is anybody who supports the establishment of such a state.

People who try to pervert the meaning of the term into something sinister do so out of hatred. If one supports a France for the French or a Japan for the Japanese, there is nothing the least bit problematical with supporting an Israel for the Jewish people.
 

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To me it means supporting Israel's right to exist. Other's have used it simply to mean "Jew" and when it's used that way it's usually not an expression of support.
 
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jetski

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Zionism is the term referring to the establishment of a state for the Jewish people in their homeland. A Zionist, therefore, is anybody who supports the establishment of such a state.

People who try to pervert the meaning of the term into something sinister do so out of hatred. If one supports a France for the French or a Japan for the Japanese, there is nothing the least bit problematical with supporting an Israel for the Jewish people.
surely neither are religious based though.

and frankly, they both sound a bit racialist.

how is zionist different to islamist?
 

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Zion means Jerusalem but within the context of geopolitics refers to those who support a Jewish State, Israel in this case.
 

Gardener

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surely neither are religious based though.
and neither is Israel. Israel was established for the Jewish people as an ethnicity, not Judaism as a religion.

and frankly, they both sound a bit racialist.
Racists certainly hate the establishment of Israel, that is certain.

how is zionist different to islamist?
You wish a 500 page treatise on the subject? There are so many differences it would take such to describe them all. You are already striking me as a person with an agenda rather than one asking innocent questions.
 

mbig

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I hear a lot of people use this word, but they all seem to mean different things.

Even the definitions in wikipedia seem myriad.

What does Zionist mean?
A 'Zionist' is basically someone who supports the Existence of Israel where it is now.
Even those wishing a return to the 1967 borders are Zionists. Israelis, Jews, and non-Jews.

What you will see alot, perhaps even in majority on the internet, is people using 'Zionist' as an epithet; a substitute word for "Greedy/Aggressive Jew". Most of them are antisemites.
They are trying to falsely separate Jews into 'Good Jews'/anti-zionists, and Bad Jews/Zionists.
But probably 97% of Jews are Zionists in that they support Israel's existence if NOT all it's policies.
ie.
The old 'Jewish Bankers' has merely been proxied with 'Zionist Bankers' even though the user/abuser doesn't know the politics of those people.
Go to an Arab/Muslim board and anything they don't like is oft called 'Zionist propaganda'.

Most of the anti-Zionist Jews are the few percent ultra-orthodox fringe sects, notably Neturei Karta/NKUSA.
And there are probably a few Leftists as well.
So what you have is people who say "I just hate zionists", but again, that's probably 97% of Jews.
If you 'just' hate 97% of Jews, well...
 
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jetski

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and neither is Israel. Israel was established for the Jewish people as an ethnicity, not Judaism as a religion.

Racists certainly hate the establishment of Israel, that is certain.


You wish a 500 page treatise on the subject? There are so many differences it would take such to describe them all. You are already striking me as a person with an agenda rather than one asking innocent questions.
You sound a bit paranoid. What are you hiding?
 

jetski

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A 'Zionist' is basically someone who supports the Existence of Israel where it is now.
Even those wishing a return to the 1967 borders are Zionists. Israelis, Jews, and non-Jews.

What you will see alot, perhaps even in majority on the internet, is people using 'Zionist' as an epithet; a substitute word for "Greedy/Aggressive Jew". Most of them are antisemites.
They are trying to falsely separate Jews into 'Good Jews'/anti-zionists, and Bad Jews/Zionists.
But probably 97% of Jews are Zionists in that they support Israel's existence if NOT all it's policies.
ie.
The old 'Jewish Bankers' has merely been proxied with 'Zionist Bankers' even though the user/abuser doesn't know the politics of those people.
Go to an Arab/Muslim board and anything they don't like is oft called 'Zionist propaganda'.

Most of the anti-Zionist Jews are the few percent ultra-orthodox fringe sects, notably Neturei Karta/NKUSA.
And there are probably a few Leftists as well.
So what you have is people who say "I just hate zionists", but again, that's probably 97% of Jews.
If you 'just' hate 97% of Jews, well...
So jews are good and arabs and muslims are bad, because they homogenise groups?

ok.
 

mbig

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So jews are good and arabs and muslims are bad, because they homogenise groups?

ok.
Huh?
Do you have any Coherent reply to my Definition or explanation of it's common Misuse?
Perhaps it was uncomfortable for you to read.
 
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Gardener

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You sound a bit paranoid. What are you hiding?
I am not hiding anything.

You, on the other hand, keep trying to twist perception through the asking of disingenuous questions. Yours is a familiar M.O. and one oft repeated.
 

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So jews are good and arabs and muslims are bad, because they homogenise groups?

ok.
And thus you confirm Gardener's suspicion.
 

jetski

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I am not hiding anything.

You, on the other hand, keep trying to twist perception through the asking of disingenuous questions. Yours is a familiar M.O. and one oft repeated.
its a simple question. you do seem pretty bigoted to be dispositioning people on the basis of questions.
 

jetski

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And thus you confirm Gardener's suspicion.
actually i think he is evidencing mine. show me where i have done any such thing?

you seem pretty bigoted too.
 

jetski

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Huh?
Do you have any Coherent reply to my Definition or explanation of it's common Misuse?
Perhaps it was uncomfortable for you to read.
you were grouping all muslims and arabs together in your rhetoric. this seems like a double standard.

maybe you should go study theory of knowledge itself before you branch out into geopolitics.
 

mbig

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you were grouping all muslims and arabs together in your rhetoric. this seems like a double standard.

maybe you should go study theory of knowledge itself before you branch out into geopolitics.
I said you will "Oft" see the abuse of the word in question on those forums.
This is just plain True.
I have posted on many of them. (ummah.com, ShiaChat, WhyIslam, etc, etc)

So I again ask:
Do you have any Coherent reply to my Definition or explanation of it's common Misuse?
Because you seem Not to be able to deal with the term YOU asked about; just throw out Deflective strawmen.
 
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jetski

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I said you will "Oft" see the abuse of the word in question on those forums.
This is just plain True.
I have posted on many of them. (ummah.com, ShiaChat, WhyIslam, etc, etc)

So I again ask:
Do you have any Coherent reply to my Definition or explanation of it's common Misuse?
Because you seem Not to be able to deal with the term YOU asked about; just throw out Deflective strawmen.
its makes no sense to cry strawmen, when im using your actual post as a reference and not some inference in my head.

essentially your post seems to do this, a lot tho.

What you will see alot, perhaps even in majority on the internet, is people using 'Zionist' as an epithet; a substitute word for "Greedy/Aggressive Jew". Most of them are antisemites.
They are trying to falsely separate Jews into 'Good Jews'/anti-zionists, and Bad Jews/Zionists.
But probably 97% of Jews are Zionists in that they support Israel's existence if NOT all it's policies.
ie.
Go to an Arab/Muslim board and anything they don't like is oft called 'Zionist propaganda'.

Most of the anti-Zionist Jews are the few percent ultra-orthodox fringe sects, notably Neturei Karta/NKUSA.
And there are probably a few Leftists as well.
So what you have is people who say "I just hate zionists", but again, that's probably 97% of Jews.
If you 'just' hate 97% of Jews, well...
theres a lot of conjecture here, and fools logic.

if you dont see that, then i dont know what to tell you.

please evidence your highlighted assertions.

also "a lot" are two words and not one.
 
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mbig

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its makes no sense to cry strawmen, when im using your actual post as a reference and not some inference in my head.
essentially your post seems to do this, a lot tho.
I answered your contention that I was 'grouping all muslims' and why.
No answer to that either.

Jetski said:
theres a lot of conjecture here, and fools logic.
if you dont see that, then i dont know what to tell you.
So you have No definition of your own and NO real meat criticizing mine.
You are just vaguely hostile to everyone else with Zero substance of your own.
What a Zionist is - is not 'conjecture'. It being regularly abused is not conjecture either.
 
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jetski

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I answered your contention that I was 'grouping all muslims' and why.
No answer to that either.

So you have No definition of your own and NO real meat criticizing mine.
You are just vaguely hostile to everyone else with Zero substance of your own.

No, i appreciate your reply, but analysing the logic shaped hole in your rhetoric, i have disdain for your aspersions toward me and your credibility in general.
 

mbig

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No, i appreciate your reply, but analysing the logic shaped hole in your rhetoric, i have disdain for your aspersions toward me and your credibility in general.
At some point you have to put some Meat on the bone in your criticism of my definition or my explanation of it's abuse.
As it stands now your posts are Incredibly/100% Empty bashing and obviously Fraudulent Bluster.
This is DEBATEpolitics, not "I disagree"/"I don't like it"/"it's conjecture", with No reason/Substance why or contrary coherent narrative/refutation.
Because you are posting emptily/just hostilely winging it, You have made ZERO dents in my "credibility".
 
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jetski

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At some point you have to put some Meat on the bone in your criticism of my definition or my explanation of it's abuse.
As it stands now your posts are Incredibly/100% Empty bashing and obviously Fraudulent Bluster.
This is DEBATEpolitics, not "I disagree"/"I don't like it"/"it's conjecture", with No reason/Substance why.
Your reply was based on baseless assertions. I highlighted the baseless assertions.

The jist of what you said is "its code word for anti semitic hatred of jews".

You proved no such thing, and only evidenced it with baseless assertions.

How would you logically separate people who believed in a jewish master race, the samson option, pre emptive invasion of iran, and attacks on sovereign nations, as well as the wholesale oppression and cultural genocide of palestinians, and establishment of a one state solution, vs people who believe in a two state solution and peace with the rest of the world?

How would you separate intergrationists v segregationists.

How would you separate those who are in step with the basic concepts of human rights, with those who believe in a master race and the right to attack anyone who doesnt belong to it.

How would you contextualise and label a racist jewish person?

In all cultures these people exist. How would you label a jewish version of the far right?
 

Gardener

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And thus you confirm Gardener's suspicion.
But didn't you catch the memo? Ignorance is strength, and freedom is slavery, Dude!

If you dare to define Zionism without extreme bias, that makes you the bigot, don't ya know?
 

jetski

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But didn't you catch the memo? Ignorance is strength, and freedom is slavery, Dude!

If you dare to define Zionism without extreme bias, that makes you the bigot, don't ya know?
How can you say that, when your posts are full of ignorant assertions with no factual evidence?
 

Gardener

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How can you say that, when your posts are full of ignorant assertions with no factual evidence?
Your little game is so transparent.
 

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Your reply was based on baseless assertions. I highlighted the baseless assertions.

The jist of what you said is "its code word for anti semitic hatred of jews".

You proved no such thing, and only evidenced it with baseless assertions.

How would you logically separate people who believed in a jewish master race, the samson option, pre emptive invasion of iran, and attacks on sovereign nations, as well as the wholesale oppression and cultural genocide of palestinians, and establishment of a one state solution, vs people who believe in a two state solution and peace with the rest of the world?

How would you separate intergrationists v segregationists.

How would you separate those who are in step with the basic concepts of human rights, with those who believe in a master race and the right to attack anyone who doesnt belong to it.

How would you contextualise and label a racist jewish person?

In all cultures these people exist. How would you label a jewish version of the far right?
Lol, and here you are proving everything we've said about certain people who use the term Zionist.
 
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