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What does it mean to INFRINGE upon the Right to Keep and Bear arms

What does it mean to INFRINGE on the RKBA


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what makes a fully automatic M16 so dangerous that most civilians cannot own them but civilian police use them all the time

and what makes them so much more dangerous than Semi Auto AR 15 rifles?

Too easy for them to be used to kill a crowd of innocents. If the law was passed, the longer time that passed without a major incidence, the less concern I would have about it. I havent delved into the legality of guns too much, I was just answering off the top of my head.

As far as the police, I am not one that fears the police so I dont mind them owning the tools they need but I dont see why they need fully automatic as a standard issue. I could see them being stored in special areas and if there was a reason they need to be "checked" out then allowing for that.
 
Too easy for them to be used to kill a crowd of innocents. If the law was passed, the longer time that passed without a major incidence, the less concern I would have about it. I havent delved into the legality of guns too much, I was just answering off the top of my head.

As far as the police, I am not one that fears the police so I dont mind them owning the tools they need but I dont see why they need fully automatic as a standard issue. I could see them being stored in special areas and if there was a reason they need to be "checked" out then allowing for that.


in 50 years there were only two cases of legally owned machine guns being used in a crime and both perpetrators were police officers

I can tell you that if you want to kill as many people as possible semi auto is more effective

full auto is mainly used to suppress movement or break contact.

I proved this 25 years ago when the Democrats first started whining about "assault weapons" on a major scale

I went to the public range and hung 10 humanoid (IPSC-MILPARK Targets) targets at 20 yards.

I took a COLT SMG 9mm weapon with a full auto, and semi auto settings

32 round magazine. Full auto-most targets hit about 2 seconds but many had non' Fatal wounds

semi auto 3 seconds. center of mass hits on all 10 targets-and I had 22 more rounds

6 seconds double taps on each target-at least one dead center head shot (98% fatal) and 12 more rounds

might want to think the full auto bit a bit more
 
in 50 years there were only two cases of legally owned machine guns being used in a crime and both perpetrators were police officers

I can tell you that if you want to kill as many people as possible semi auto is more effective

full auto is mainly used to suppress movement or break contact.

I proved this 25 years ago when the Democrats first started whining about "assault weapons" on a major scale

I went to the public range and hung 10 humanoid (IPSC-MILPARK Targets) targets at 20 yards.

I took a COLT SMG 9mm weapon with a full auto, and semi auto settings

32 round magazine. Full auto-most targets hit about 2 seconds but many had non' Fatal wounds

semi auto 3 seconds. center of mass hits on all 10 targets-and I had 22 more rounds

6 seconds double taps on each target-at least one dead center head shot (98% fatal) and 12 more rounds

might want to think the full auto bit a bit more

I will admit my knowledge in this subject is lacking and I am definately not the stereotypical liberal in this subject. I will give my opinion on the subject but would look at the numbers before acting. However, I also cant get out of my head if there are less legally owned fully auto's then there will be less illegal fully autos because I would think most illegal guns are stolen.
 
I will admit my knowledge in this subject is lacking and I am definately not the stereotypical liberal in this subject. I will give my opinion on the subject but would look at the numbers before acting. However, I also cant get out of my head if there are less legally owned fully auto's then there will be less illegal fully autos because I would think most illegal guns are stolen.

In 1989 I was part of a group that examined stolen weapons from US arsenals (government owned guns)

15,000 M16 rifles that year

In one case, Inspectors went to an armory 3 weeks earlier than expected. They found numerous rifles and light machine guns fully operational that had been listed as "lost in action" "destroyed in training" or "de-milled (scrapped) by armorers. what would happen is corrupt military would report a firearm destroyed or scrapped and after that it no longer "existed" officially. Meaning if someone stole it-no one would notice since the gun was no longer listed as being in the armory.

in the mid to late 70s, the USSR and its satellites jettisoned the AK 47 and AKM style rifles (firing the 762x39 com bloc round) in favor of their version of the 193 5.56 NATO Ball round called the 545x39 and the AK 74 rifle. Millions upon millions upon millions of surplus AKM rifles were dumped on the world market selling, in some cases-for 20 dollars US. think some of them didn't come into the USA

Lots of AKMS and other similar weapons came back in duffel bags from the early days of NAM before officials started cracking down on that. It was so prevalent that the ATF had what was called the 68 AMNESTY where you could register a machine gun and pay the tax stamp (200 dollars). If you are a serious gun collector (as I am though I don't do autos since they aren't worth the money) you often see ads for "68 amnesty guns" meaning it has official paperwork and can legally be transferred. An ATF agent I used to work with noted that they figured less than 10% of such weapons brought back before that amnesty period were "papered"
 
In 1989 I was part of a group that examined stolen weapons from US arsenals (government owned guns)

15,000 M16 rifles that year

In one case, Inspectors went to an armory 3 weeks earlier than expected. They found numerous rifles and light machine guns fully operational that had been listed as "lost in action" "destroyed in training" or "de-milled (scrapped) by armorers. what would happen is corrupt military would report a firearm destroyed or scrapped and after that it no longer "existed" officially. Meaning if someone stole it-no one would notice since the gun was no longer listed as being in the armory.

in the mid to late 70s, the USSR and its satellites jettisoned the AK 47 and AKM style rifles (firing the 762x39 com bloc round) in favor of their version of the 193 5.56 NATO Ball round called the 545x39 and the AK 74 rifle. Millions upon millions upon millions of surplus AKM rifles were dumped on the world market selling, in some cases-for 20 dollars US. think some of them didn't come into the USA

Lots of AKMS and other similar weapons came back in duffel bags from the early days of NAM before officials started cracking down on that. It was so prevalent that the ATF had what was called the 68 AMNESTY where you could register a machine gun and pay the tax stamp (200 dollars). If you are a serious gun collector (as I am though I don't do autos since they aren't worth the money) you often see ads for "68 amnesty guns" meaning it has official paperwork and can legally be transferred. An ATF agent I used to work with noted that they figured less than 10% of such weapons brought back before that amnesty period were "papered"

Hmm, thank you. I didnt know that.
 
Does anyone on this forum think that people who are mentally ill should be walking around every day with a firearm strapped to their hip?

Always a mistake to take examples to the furthest end of the continuum in order to be able to achieve a suitable level of ridicule. Others are so aware of the Liberal tactics and goals these days. You tend to create disrespect and suspicion of your subsequent points, if any. What's next, outrage?
 
Always a mistake to take examples to the furthest end of the continuum in order to be able to achieve a suitable level of ridicule. Others are so aware of the Liberal tactics and goals these days. You tend to create disrespect and suspicion of your subsequent points, if any.
What's next, outrage?



We have plenty of outrage in the USA every time another mass shooting happens.

Right now we're trying reality, ever heard of that?
 
We have plenty of outrage in the USA every time another mass shooting happens.

Right now we're trying reality, ever heard of that?

lots of the gun haters love hearing the news of another massacre so they can use the blood of the victims as fuel for their jihad against gun ownership.

and why should millions of people have their RKBA restricted because someone commits capital murder with a gun?
 
Now all that we need is a good definition of 'infringe' which everyone agrees with.

well one prominent gun banner claims that if you can own one gun-the government can never -by any subsequent action-infringe on your right to KBA because by owning one gun you will be ABLE TO ENJOY your rights (which is moronic because the BOR is not about what I can do but rather what the GOVERNMENT Cannot do) forever

that is clearly moronic

On the other side, showing an ID to buy a gun is not a substantive infringement in my book even though there really is absolutely no authority delegated to the federal government to make any laws about guns other than say regulating guns use by those in federal employment or carrying weapons in federal facilities.
 
Does anyone on this forum think that people who are mentally ill should be walking around every day with a firearm strapped to their hip?

What is their mental illness?

Let's start with the 'A's:

Acute stress disorder Probably yes
Adjustment disorder Probably yes
Adolescent antisocial behavior Probably no
Adult antisocial behavior Probably no
Adverse effects of medication-not otherwise specified Yes
Age-related cognitive decline Yes going to no depending on stage
Agoraphobia Yes
Alcohol abuse Depends on how incapacitated they are
Alcohol dependence Depends on how incapacitated they are
Alcohol withdrawal Yes
Alcoholic hallucinosis No
Alzheimer's disease Depends on stage

This is just part of the A's and we still have all of the other letters to go. Basically, you cant make a blanket statement like that.
 
well one prominent gun banner claims that if you can own one gun-the government can never -by any subsequent action-infringe on your right to KBA because by owning one gun you will be ABLE TO ENJOY your rights (which is moronic because the BOR is not about what I can do but rather what the GOVERNMENT Cannot do) forever

that is clearly moronic

Probably no ammo.
 
lots of the gun haters love hearing the news of another massacre so they can use the blood of the victims as fuel for their jihad against gun ownership.

and
why should millions of people have their RKBA restricted because someone commits capital murder with a gun?




Where has this happened?

I haven't heard anything about this.
 
What is their mental illness?

Let's start with the 'A's:

Acute stress disorder Probably yes
Adjustment disorder Probably yes
Adolescent antisocial behavior Probably no
Adult antisocial behavior Probably no
Adverse effects of medication-not otherwise specified Yes
Age-related cognitive decline Yes going to no depending on stage
Agoraphobia Yes
Alcohol abuse Depends on how incapacitated they are
Alcohol dependence Depends on how incapacitated they are
Alcohol withdrawal Yes
Alcoholic hallucinosis No
Alzheimer's disease Depends on stage

This is just part of the A's and we still have all of the other letters to go.
Basically, you cant make a blanket statement like tha
t.




I didn't make a statement, blanket or otherwise, I asked a question-for which I realize there are no easy answers.




"Life is a bitch, and then you die."
 
I didn't make a statement, blanket or otherwise, I asked a question-for which I realize there are no easy answers.




"Life is a bitch, and then you die."

You are correct, I was wrong. You did ask a question and not make a blanket statement.

My only answer to the question as asked is depends. I would question the knowledge of mental health of anyone who would answer any other way.
 
That's your opinion.

Which you are entitled to and I will ignore.


"The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen." ~ Tommy Smothers

Priceless

not_listening2.webp
 
You are correct, I was wrong. You did ask a question and not make a blanket statement.

My only answer to the question as asked is depends. I would question the knowledge of mental health of anyone who would answer any other way.

Good enough, I certainly agree that making a judgement on anyone's mental health is not an easy thing to do, even for those who are most qualified to do this.
 
It depends on the given law doesn’t it? Or are you saying any laws, whatsoever, concerning those that don’t fall into the category of established mentally unstable or convicted criminals of violent crime, an abridgment or infringement of the right to keep and bear arms?

The current movement in the effort to ‘control’ who gets guns 1) does not work, 2) is unconstitutional. Maryland epitomizes this movement: Ban guns, limit magazine capacity, require registration, finger printing… These are efforts that Obama and many democrats at the federal level are pushing. Washington DC had an outright ban on guns in that city and gun crimes were disproportionately high to the claim that these gun control methods would curb gun violence. Name your city where gun crimes are the highest and you’ll find they have the most strict gun control laws. Most criminals that commit gun crimes don’t bother to get their guns legally, so how do any of these laws work? The mentally ill (like Adam Lanza) ‘acquired’ (I’ll say stole) typically get their guns from other owners. How do these laws prevent them from getting guns? The answer to both is… they don’t.

In an effort to create a perfect world, anti-gun folks have created a less perfect world. These laws only serve to embolden criminals knowing most law-abiding people are unarmed. If I were to implement laws that tried to solve gun crime problems I would target the crime, not the object. With strict, swift, harsh punishment. Hold owners who lose control of their fireamrs to someone that commits a gun crime they will receive swift and harsh punishment. Our government is sending the message that if you’re a law-respecting person with no intentions of inflicting harm on any innocent person, you can’t be trusted and the government will make a criminal out of you with these gun control laws; while at the same time telling criminals “it’s now open season”.
 
then is regulating the use of explosive devices considered an infringement of the second ammendment.

or a cannon, or a missile, or any other arm. That is the $64 question. The Constitution does not say "gun", but "arm."

While I agree basically with the right of every adult who isn't a felon to carry, there still is the issue of infringement of the right to keep and bear arms besides firearms.

The question is... do you trust your friends with such weapons? What about you... can YOU be trusted with explosives, cannons, missiles, etc...? If you learn how to handle them properly and have no intentions of using them maliciously, can you be trusted with them?

This isn’t a matter of how dangerous the ‘tool’ is, it’s a matter of how dangerous the person is that has the tool and their intentions. Every American should be trusted until proven otherwise – you know, that old adage ‘innocent until proven guilty’? Our rights are not for the government to limit based on whether we are all trustworthy; they are our rights not to be touched until we violate the trust of our fellow citizens.

So, to answer your question… yes, it is an infringement. On the grounds that our government has deemed you guilty, that you can’t be trusted, before you have even committed any crime.
 
Where has this happened?

I haven't heard anything about this.

Connecticut. Passed idiotic gun laws as a reaction to Newtown
NYS passed idiotic gun laws as a reaction to some felon shooting firefighters
England banned and confiscated handguns due to the Dunblane massacre
Australia banned and confiscated firearms due to the Tasmania massacre
 
Where has this happened?

I haven't heard anything about this.

O'Malley to push sweeping gun control, licensing plan - Baltimore Sun

Gov. Martin O'Malley announced Monday broad details of a plan that would give Maryland among the nation's strictest gun laws…

"There is a sickness in this country, and that sickness is gun violence," O'Malley said, repeating a phrase he has used in the weeks since the December shooting that killed 20 children. "Gun violence is truly a public health issue," he said…

"If in fact — and I believe this is true — everybody across party lines was as deeply moved ... as I was by what happened in Newtown, then we're going to have to vote based on what we think is best," the president said. "We're going to have to come up with answers that set politics aside."

And we, in MD, now have SB-281 passed. The result is a ban on 81 firearms in semi-automatic (assault) rifles and handguns after 1 Oct 2013. Removable magazine limits 10 rounds. And a plethora of other restrictions.
 
"Infringe" means ANY government action meant to deny law abiding citizens ready access to military grade infantry style weapons would be considered an 'infringement'. Take the partisan definitions out of the second amendment and turn only to what the framers intent was. It wasnt about hunting...that right was considered a given. It wasnt to preserve the right to self defense. Again...an absolute given. No...the 2nd was a CITIZEN right to keep and bear arms to preserve Country and Constitution. It was a protection against an oppressive government as are all the others in the Bill of Rights.

Should I have a right to possess a fully automatic military grade weapon (understand I already have that 'right' so long as I pay for a permit, which is wrong)? Yes...absolutely. With that, I should also have the responsibility to maintain it in good working order and to keep it secured.
 
Merriam websters offers several definitions on the word "infringe"...

: to do something that does not obey or follow (a rule, law, etc.) ( chiefly US )

: to wrongly limit or restrict (something, such as another person's rights)

transitive verb
1
: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another <infringe a patent>
2
obsolete : defeat, frustrate
 
Merriam websters offers several definitions on the word "infringe"...

: to do something that does not obey or follow (a rule, law, etc.) ( chiefly US )

: to wrongly limit or restrict (something, such as another person's rights)

transitive verb
1
: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another <infringe a patent>
2
obsolete : defeat, frustrate

So, do you think that was the valid definition in 1791?
 
The current movement in the effort to ‘control’ who gets guns 1) does not work, 2) is unconstitutional. Maryland epitomizes this movement: Ban guns, limit magazine capacity, require registration, finger printing… These are efforts that Obama and many democrats at the federal level are pushing. Washington DC had an outright ban on guns in that city and gun crimes were disproportionately high to the claim that these gun control methods would curb gun violence.

I’m well aware, and I am against any type of regulation or bans on the federal level, including permits of any sort. I think that all those who support the 2nd Amendment can agree that any bans in both state and federal levels are a direct infringement, and I think that includes bans on high capacity magazines. Finger prints are borderline depending, and I’ll address registration in a minute. My difference in this topic is that I am an avid supporter of States ‘rights’. United States v. Cruikshank: [the Second Amendment] "has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government." yet, with the 14th Amendment, it is held that the specifically enumerated rights apply to the states. And while I hold this true, I contend that a state may retain the power (which must be specifically stated in their constitution) to regulate the wearing of arms so long as such regulation does not equate to a substantive interference.

I think I’ve outlined my position and boundaries on permit abuse specifically for handguns fairly well.

Name your city where gun crimes are the highest and you’ll find they have the most strict gun control laws.

Well, that’s not exactly true because New Orleans has one of the highest gun homicide rates in the country and has fairly relaxed gun laws, but to be fair, it’s difficult to make city to city or state to state comparisons due to the numerous possible factors. For example, in 2010 Texas had the second highest number of gun homicides at about 800, but hey, it’s a big freakin state (hah). We could also look at places like Vermont which have open carry without a permit and they had 2… yes, two… gun homicides in the same year, but, the state is mostly rural. The best way to determine the effects of gun control laws is comparisons within the same city itself – such as how the murder rate in Chicago is at it’s lowest in 50 years, which just so happens to follow the Supreme Court stricking down their handgun ban that was in place for nearly 30 years.

Most criminals that commit gun crimes don’t bother to get their guns legally, so how do any of these laws work? The mentally ill (like Adam Lanza) ‘acquired’ (I’ll say stole) typically get their guns from other owners. How do these laws prevent them from getting guns? The answer to both is… they don’t.

That’s because the laws are aimed at playing nanny, rather than educating the law-abiding gun owners, and allowing school staff to arm themselves, or even, and up to, full firearms training classes in school. Never seen a mass shooting at a gun range, have we? There’s a reason for that.

In an effort to create a perfect world, anti-gun folks have created a less perfect world. These laws only serve to embolden criminals knowing most law-abiding people are unarmed. If I were to implement laws that tried to solve gun crime problems I would target the crime, not the object. With strict, swift, harsh punishment.

I agree 100%, but…

Hold owners who lose control of their fireamrs to someone that commits a gun crime they will receive swift and harsh punishment.

Hold on there…. You would punish the victim of a theft, as if he is responsible for the crime itself? If someone breaks into my house, steals my gun, and kills someone… I should be liable? That’s not right. In cases like Adam Lanza it may be known where the gun came from, but in most cases there wouldn’t be a way to tell who own the gun without … Gun registration. Gun registration serves no purpose in the effort to secure public safety, and does nothing but create a shopping list for arbitrary confiscation, or in the case you present: punishing those who had nothing to do with the crime.

Our government is sending the message that if you’re a law-respecting person with no intentions of inflicting harm on any innocent person, you can’t be trusted and the government will make a criminal out of you with these gun control laws; while at the same time telling criminals “it’s now open season”.

I absolutely hold to that principle as I quoted; “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
 
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