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What do you think about the Newtown family members who want to ban guns [W: 372]

You would have us believe that owning a gun, is no different than owning a blender or a lamp Is that your position?

of course not, blenders and lamp ownership is not recognized as a natural right by the constitution. and leftwing control freaks don't try to ban those things because liberals tend to own as many lamps and blenders as do those of us who support freedom
 
Wrong. Liberal thinking doesn't follow that line of reasoning which is filled with holes. They don't intend to commit murder. If you can find a person that was drunk and was involved in a wreck and prove pre-meditated murder, then do it. I suspect you'll have a very hard time. They may want to commit suicide, but even that would be hard to prove, but if you're suggesting that driving while drunk is premeditated murder then according to "conservative way of thinking" the last thing you want to do is allow people with guns in bars. If they want to deliberately kill somebody when they are drunk, that would be far more convenient then getting into a car and possibly killing yourself in the process. Do you think that a drunk is any more dangerous with a car than he would be with a gun? They intend to get from one place to another while being drunk. It's stupid and has can have lethal consequences, and they could be convicted of murder in some states. But it would not be 1st degree murder. It's not premeditated. It's stupid.

A drunk behind the wheel of the car is much more dangerous than one with a gun, a drunk is more likely to shoot himself.

You seem to be missing the point completely or it is just out of your reach, I vote for that one.

Hardware nor machines can kill people without some operating them. It is a choice each makes. Guns don't kill, people kill. Liberals can't grasp that truth as proven when they allow a doctor to take an instrument of death to kill a fetus and clap for that victory on a daily basis.
 
If you like the Fairness Doctrine then you have to give this guy equal time.

You asked for someone from Newtown who opposed new gun control, you got one. Equal time or liberals are hypocrites (we already know the answer).


You cited the Fairness Doctrine to support your demands. There is no Fairness Doctrine. I have no view on the Fairness Doctrine at all. I asked for you to provide somebody on the other side. You provided ONE. And that person has in fact received equal time. He has appeared on Fox, has he not? Do you not consider Fox to be credible enough for you? They have a larger viewing audiene than the other networks. You ask why the "other side" isn't being heard from Newtown. Apparently there is no large group of people in Newtown that support you gun rights cause. If there was, you'd be hearing from them at least on Fox. To suggest that there is some large army of gun rights supporters from Newtown that aren't having their voices heard is total crap. If they existed, you'd be hearing from them at least on Fox. You found 1 person among the family. Apparently there isn't much support for your view in Newtown.
 
You cited the Fairness Doctrine to support your demands. There is no Fairness Doctrine. I have no view on the Fairness Doctrine at all. I asked for you to provide somebody on the other side. You provided ONE. And that person has in fact received equal time. He has appeared on Fox, has he not? Do you not consider Fox to be credible enough for you? They have a larger viewing audiene than the other networks. You ask why the "other side" isn't being heard from Newtown. Apparently there is no large group of people in Newtown that support you gun rights cause. If there was, you'd be hearing from them at least on Fox. To suggest that there is some large army of gun rights supporters from Newtown that aren't having their voices heard is total crap. If they existed, you'd be hearing from them at least on Fox. You found 1 person among the family. Apparently there isn't much support for your view in Newtown.

Newtown is not the epicenter of the US, and their support or non-support is not relevant.

Their opinions have no more or less weight than opinions by any other citizen.
 
Newtown is not the epicenter of the US, and their support or non-support is not relevant.

Their opinions have no more or less weight than opinions by any other citizen.
Well, if they don't have prior knowledge of the subject, their opinions defintitely have less weight. Like the father that asked why people "need" whatever it was he appealed to(I forget because they have so many talking points) and then challenged the audience at the hearing to answer him, then got his figurative teeth knocked out.
 
stop ignoring reality, CT just added dozens of guns to their banned list

Look Turtle...there are some types of guns that will be banned. At least by some states like CT or Colorado or any other state that feels the impact of the next event which will surely happen. I doubt that a Federal ban on assault weapons will take place because of the split in Congress on this idea. Although the Supreme Court held in District of Columbia v. Heller that there is an individual right to possess guns for self-defense in the home, that right seems to be limited to kinds of guns that are in common use among law-abiding people for self-defense. Based on what I have read, and my understanding of the law, I do not believe that the kinds of guns and ammunition that Congress would imaginably try to regulate fall within that category. The Heller decision allows a person to exercise the right to own a gun in your home for self defense. The assault weapon is not in that catagory. Furthermore, I do not see a problem with the prohibition of ammunition for assault rifles, however you will always be able to own a gun. So our 2nd Amendment rights are met, and people will be safer at the same time. Background checks do absolutely nothing to deny you your right to own a gun unless you think you can't pass a background check, and I don't suspect that's a problem for you. A person that knows he can't pass one, wont' even try to go that route. He'll have to get through a straw purchase, or by theft. So make Straw Purchases illegal. You can't legally go into a liquor store and buy beer or cigarettes for a minor. The penalties for a straw purchase of a gun should be much stronger since you know that the person that is going that route can't get a gun by normal channels. He has something else in mind which is going to impact law abiding gun owners negatively. And nobody is going to come to your house to try and take your guns from you. If they tried to do that...I myself would stand with you against that. If that were the case, then your worst fears about confiscation would be true, and the public would NEVER accept that. However, that will never happen in the United States. The culture for guns is historic and it's a central idea in America. No President is going to try that, and no congress will ever pass such a thing. The NRA would tell us that gun laws are the first step toward confiscation. The slippery slope argument is fallacious. The Slippery Slope is a fallacy in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any argument for the inevitability of the event in question. In most cases, there are a series of steps or gradations between one event and the one in question and no reason is given as to why the intervening steps or gradations will simply be bypassed. This "argument" has the following form:

Event X has occurred (or will or might occur).
Therefore event Y will inevitably happen.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because there is no reason to believe that one event must inevitably follow from another without an argument for such a claim. This is especially clear in cases in which there is a significant number of steps or gradations between one event and another.

Wayne LaPierre uses that logical fallacy to stoke fear in the public, and I for one will never put up with an irrational and illogical fear to stand in the way of common sense. As a logical and rational person ( which I would hope you are ) you shouldn't either. Perhaps you aren't logical or rational. What I've seen from your posts don't demonstrate that. But Nobody should put up with fear mongering as a guide for legislation in this country.
 
You cited the Fairness Doctrine to support your demands. There is no Fairness Doctrine. I have no view on the Fairness Doctrine at all. I asked for you to provide somebody on the other side. You provided ONE. And that person has in fact received equal time. He has appeared on Fox, has he not? Do you not consider Fox to be credible enough for you? They have a larger viewing audiene than the other networks. You ask why the "other side" isn't being heard from Newtown. Apparently there is no large group of people in Newtown that support you gun rights cause. If there was, you'd be hearing from them at least on Fox. To suggest that there is some large army of gun rights supporters from Newtown that aren't having their voices heard is total crap. If they existed, you'd be hearing from them at least on Fox. You found 1 person among the family. Apparently there isn't much support for your view in Newtown.
You're making the case against Fairness Doctrine.
 
Look Turtle...there are some types of guns that will be banned.
No firearm should be banned. Not any of them.

Although the Supreme Court held in District of Columbia v. Heller that there is an individual right to possess guns for self-defense in the home, that right seems to be limited to kinds of guns that are in common use among law-abiding people for self-defense.
Heller states "for lawful purposes such as self-defense within the home". Heller does not limit the right to self-defense within the home, it merely used that as one example of a lawful purpose.

Based on what I have read, and my understanding of the law, I do not believe that the kinds of guns and ammunition that Congress would imaginably try to regulate fall within that category.
What chart are you reading these 'categories' from? Link please.

The Heller decision allows a person to exercise the right to own a gun in your home for self defense.
Among other lawful purposes also.

The assault weapon is not in that catagory.
What chart are you reading these 'categories' from? Link please.

Furthermore, I do not see a problem with the prohibition of ammunition for assault rifles, however you will always be able to own a gun.
'Assault rifles' use the exact same ammunition as traditional sport rifles. My step-mother's old-western style Winchester lever-action rifle uses the exact same ammunition as the Army's modern medium machine gun.

Background checks do absolutely nothing to deny you your right to own a gun unless you think you can't pass a background check, and I don't suspect that's a problem for you.
It creates a registry, which in turn country after country uses for mass confiscation.

A person that knows he can't pass one, wont' even try to go that route. He'll have to get through a straw purchase, or by theft.
And therefore background checks are pointless.

So make Straw Purchases illegal.
They already are illegal. The problem is that the ATF doesn't prosecute.

And nobody is going to come to your house to try and take your guns from you.
The phrase you need to look for is "dry out the supply". That was the purpose of the Gun Control Act, the Hughes Amendment, and every modern assault weapon ban.

If they tried to do that...I myself would stand with you against that. If that were the case, then your worst fears about confiscation would be true, and the public would NEVER accept that.
No you wouldn't. You would say:
Although the Supreme Court held in District of Columbia v. Heller that there is an individual right to possess guns for self-defense in the home, that right seems to be limited to kinds of guns that are in common use among law-abiding people for self-defense.

However, that will never happen in the United States.
It's been happening. Have you never heard of an assault weapon ban?

The NRA would tell us that gun laws are the first step toward confiscation. The slippery slope argument is fallacious. The Slippery Slope is a fallacy in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any argument for the inevitability of the event in question. In most cases, there are a series of steps or gradations between one event and the one in question and no reason is given as to why the intervening steps or gradations will simply be bypassed. This "argument" has the following form:

Event X has occurred (or will or might occur).
Therefore event Y will inevitably happen.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because there is no reason to believe that one event must inevitably follow from another without an argument for such a claim. This is especially clear in cases in which there is a significant number of steps or gradations between one event and another.

Let's look at that, shall we?
Logical Fallacy: Slippery Slope

Form:
If A happens, then by a gradual series of small steps through B, C,…, X, Y, eventually Z will happen, too.
Z should not happen.
Therefore, A should not happen, either.

"A" is the Gun Control Act of 1968. "B" is the Hughes Amendment of 1986. C, D, E, and so on are the various assault weapons bans, hand-gun bans, approved gun lists, 30rnd mag bans, "may-issue" status, high permit fees, gun-free-zones, no-gun signs on private businesses, and so forth of various states. V is the proposed federal AWB. Z is a total gun ban.

A Slippery Slope would be if I had said "the Gun Control Act of 1968 will lead to a total gun ban". That is an "A will lead to Z" statement. That is a fallacy because B though Y wouldn't exist yet, so there's no reason to believe that A would ever lead to Z.

I said something different. I said "given that A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,Q,R,S,T,U are leading up to Z, then V, W, X and Y are also leading up to Z."

See the difference?

Let's look at how to mechanically expose a Slippery Slope:
Logical Fallacy: Slippery Slope

This type is based upon the claim that a controversial type of action will lead inevitably to some admittedly bad type of action. It is the slide from A to Z via the intermediate steps B through Y that is the "slope", and the smallness of each step that makes it "slippery".


This type of argument is by no means invariably fallacious, but the strength of the argument is inversely proportional to the number of steps between A and Z, and directly proportional to the causal strength of the connections between adjacent steps. If there are many intervening steps, and the causal connections between them are weak, or even unknown, then the resulting argument will be very weak, if not downright fallacious.

The proposed federal AWB (W) gets it's root authority from the Gun Control Act (A). Without the GCA, the government cannot regulate firearms in any way. This alone does not mean the proposed federal AWB is a step to Z, total gun ban. Item B is the Hughes Amendment, who's stated purpose was to "dry out the supply" of certain arms from civilian ownership. Then various states enacted their own bans and restrictions (C though T). To "dry out the supply" of these arms is also the stated purpose for the last federal AWB (U), and is the stated purpose of the proposed federal AWB (V).

What connects these previous steps even further is the fact that the primary author of the proposed AWB is the same person who authored the last federal AWB, Dianne Feinstein; who also authored an AWB for her own state (one of C though T) and is who currently affirms that the purpose of the AWB is to "dry out the supply", not combat gun violence.

The proposed federal AWB is the product of a long line of gradual, incremental restrictions. it is another incremental restriction itself.

What we need to do is remove B, the Hughes Amendment, which will cause C though V to colaps.


*****
Keep A, the Gun Control Act, because E (can't own explosives) H (background checks) and K (familiarity training required) are good policies. A, E, H, K don't lead to Z.
 
You would have us believe that owning a gun, is no different than owning a blender or a lamp Is that your position?

Contrary to your initial claim, owning a gun doesn't kill anybody. Whether it's the same as owning a blender or a lamp is irrelevant.
 
of course not, blenders and lamp ownership is not recognized as a natural right by the constitution. and leftwing control freaks don't try to ban those things because liberals tend to own as many lamps and blenders as do those of us who support freedom

of course not, blenders and lamp ownership is not recognized as a natural right by the constitution.

A "natural right"? By that do you mean this: Life, Liberty and Property. There are certain rights that NO government can override. A natural right to life, liberty and property. The right to property is a natural right because it is Pre-Political. The only constraint in nature is that we cannot give up our natural rights. Nor can we take them from somebody else. Is that the argument? This is from John Locke, and Locke was a heavy influence on the thinking of our founders. I get that. Locke says, “For men, being all the workmanship of one omnipotent maker, they are his property, whose workmanship they are, made to last during his, not one anothers pleasure. You can’t give up your own rights, because they aren’t actually yours. You’re a creature of God, and they don’t belong to you. Gods property right exists a priori to yours.

“The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it which obliges everyone: and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind , who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions. “ John Locke.

How can there be a right to private property even before there is a government?
Locke says, “Everyman has a property in his own person. This, nobody has any right to but himself. The labor of his body and the work of his hands, we may say, are property his.” Sounds pretty Libertarian. Since you subscribe to Natural Law theory,you would be a naturalist, and naturalists are people who think that understanding nature and understanding human nature is the key to political theorizing. I mean, you are using "natural law" as the basis for your argument so you must agree with it.

Locke also says, No legitimate government can violate our natural rights. However…what counts as life and liberty and respect for property…is defined by government. That there be property, that there be respect for life and liberty is what limits government, but what counts as respecting my life or my property…that is for government to decide and define." I'm sure that you must accept this as true, since you are using the 2nd Amendment, which was defined by...government to begin with. You are using the governments own definition of the 2nd amendment to make your case.

Locke was a theologian, and his thinking is deeply rooted in theology. Locke was a Thomist. The problem that Locke had with his Natural Law theory was this: "Can God change natural law?" If you said no, that would suggest that God is not omnipotent, but if you said yes, that would suggest that natural law is not a system of timeless universals, because if God could change natural law maybe he'll choose to change it tomorrow. Locke had been concerned about this theological problem with natural law that if you say it's a timeless universal that seems to undermine the idea of God's omnipotence because God can't be an all-powerful figure. But if on the other hand you say, well, God can change natural law then that undermines its possible universality. If God cannot change natural law, than natural law exists outside of God. In fact it had to exist prior to God so who put it there before God? OR...God says what natural law is, and because he is omnipotent, could change it, which makes it arbitrary and open to change.

And Locke struggled with this. If you become expert on the seventeenth century and you go back and read his essays on the law of nature written in the 1660s you'll see him really torturing himself as to how to resolve this. He never really resolved it, but in the end he came down on what we call the command theory, the workmanship theory, the well-based theory that — he said, "We have to say that God is omnipotent and let the chips fall where they may for the timelessness of natural law."

And so it's God's will that's the basis of natural law in God's case, and God's knowledge of his creation is traced back to this idea of the workmanship ideal, maker's knowledge. So God has maker's knowledge of his creation.

Lockes theory requires us to accept a concept of God as a pre-condition to make his theory work.

That requires us to suspend all scepticism and simply accept that theory as its own basis. A theory cannot use itself to prove itself. If you're the least bit familiar with logic, then you know this is an exercise in Circular reasoning and it's a logical fallacy. So Lockes theory falls apart right there. His concept of God and Natural Law has a built in contradition that isn't resolved.

According to Aristotle, first philosophy, or metaphysics, deals with ontology and first principles, of which the principle (or law) of non-contradiction is the firmest. Aristotle says that without the principle of non-contradiction we could not know anything that we do know. Presumably, we could not demarcate the subject matter of any of the special sciences, for example, biology or mathematics, and we would not be able to distinguish between what something is, for example a human being or a rabbit, and what it is like, for example pale or white. Aristotle's own distinction between essence and accident would be impossible to draw, and the inability to draw distinctions in general would make rational discussion impossible. According to Aristotle, the principle of non-contradiction is a principle of scientific inquiry, reasoning and communication that we cannot do without. It is impossible for the same thing to belong and not to belong at the same time to the same thing and in the same respect. If you can't accept the Law of Non-contradiction, then you're simply out of touch with reality, and theres no further need for any discussion. That would make you a hopeless ideologue from some alternative universe. It also undermines any possible argument you could make.

So...if you're going to make a case for "natural rights" and those rights are based on "natural law" then you probably want to look for something else to support your argument. The assumptions you make about human nature are taken from the society you want to justify, and then you present them as though they were features of pre-social, if you like, human nature.

What we now know from 200 years of anthropology is that actually Aristotle was right. There never was a pre-social condition. Human beings are naturally social creatures and you can't analyze them apart from their social and cultural environment. You just can't do it. Anything you try to do in that general direction will obscure more than it reveals. You'll end up with tendentious assumptions about human nature that will allow you to derive the conclusions that you want, but at the end of the day this is only going to persuade the people who agreed with you before you began and it's not going to convince the skeptics, so what's the point?
How can you generate a natural law theory when most people don't accept the idea of natural law?

Now, undoubtedly (I'm assuming here) you'll say that this is all a bunch of crap. But you'll need to do more then just say that, and as a Yalie, I would expect you to have a logical and rational explanation as to why you think it's crap. That kind of response wouldn't get you admitted to Yale, so why would I expect anything less from someone that graduated from that fine institution.

I may be wrong, and you may be right...and together we might actually get closer to the truth, and Truth is what matters. Lux et Veritas. Light and Truth. It's your AM's Motto.
 
Yes that is our position.

Then why don't we have amendments to the constitution that spell out our rights to a blender or a lamp? Obviously there is a difference between a gun and a blender that requires special attention in the Constitution.
 
A "natural right"? By that do you mean this: Life, Liberty and Property. There are certain rights that NO government can override. A natural right to life, liberty and property. The right to property is a natural right because it is Pre-Political. The only constraint in nature is that we cannot give up our natural rights. Nor can we take them from somebody else. Is that the argument?

I think this has been proven thousands of times already, there is no such thing as a right other than what you (the people) can enforce. When government has the power it can and will override every right the people think they have, a right can only be kept by force. No delusion of "God" will ever change that. In a society where the people have the power (Guns) they keep their rights, in societies where the people have lost the power through force or were stupid enough to surrender it to their government by choice their rights will be stripped away whether it be in the name of dominance or benevolence. In no nation of people has this not been so.
 
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of course not, blenders and lamp ownership is not recognized as a natural right by the constitution. and leftwing control freaks don't try to ban those things because liberals tend to own as many lamps and blenders as do those of us who support freedom

Then you should tell that to blaxshep. He hasn't figured that out yet.
 
of course not, blenders and lamp ownership is not recognized as a natural right by the constitution. and leftwing control freaks don't try to ban those things because liberals tend to own as many lamps and blenders as do those of us who support freedom

The reason why a gun is not just another object like a blender or a lamp is obvious, and that's why it gets special attention in the constitution that the others do not. As you are pointing out, it has special attention given to it in the constitution that the other objects do not get because it has a purpose that has consequences that the others do not have. It's purpose is to kill. That's not what a blender is designed for. You could hit somebody over the head I suppose with a blender and if you hit them in the right spot, it might do the job, but you won't be going into a movie theater looking to pull off a mass killing by using a blender. We don't arm our military with blenders. If they were no different then a gun, why not equip them with those. It would be cheaper and reduce the deficit. A gun has a different purpose, and that purpose is significant enough to require special attention in the Constitution. So the argument that it's just another object that poses no threat to anybody is simply false. If that were true, we wouldn't even have a 2nd Amendment that deals with guns.
 
A "natural right"? By that do you mean this: Life, Liberty and Property. There are certain rights that NO government can override. A natural right to life, liberty and property. The right to property is a natural right because it is Pre-Political. The only constraint in nature is that we cannot give up our natural rights. Nor can we take them from somebody else. Is that the argument?

It's more nuanced these days. For practical application, treating it as fundmental/natural works. All this "no government can override" stuff is typically strawman, but I wouldn't doubt someone not understanding such rights claiming as such. Typically the way I see it phrased is that government is less legitimate the more it curtails fundamental rights. Or that in a specific transgression of rights, that portion of government is illegitimate. Certainly any government can do anything that can be done, including violating anything and everything. Look at it this way, a government can violate what is logical through actions or argument, yet we don't hear you claiming that logic is somehow wrong or insufficient.

Additionally, fundamental rights in this philosophical perspective, while they may be defined by a government, the entire point is that that government must be legitimate. In other words, if I have the freedom to constrain some of my fundamental rights for the greater good, by choice, than sure government might write a law that spells out certain legal right/limits, the underlying philosophy is that in a legitimate government, they received the authority to do so, and maintain it, legitimately. In our case, governments powers come from our individual rights, not vice versa. Consent of governed is key there.

Fundamental rights for an individual are fairly straightforward, they encounter issues in a society where one persons exercise of a right might interfere with someone else's. The bare min government would ensure that such clashes are solved peacefully and without fraud/coercion. That's good for self sufficient people, but for say, the undepowered, fraud may be an issue that government simply cannot enforce centralized, so it uses broad safety net laws that do hurt the self sufficient, but also does prevent some of the worst abuses on the underpowred end of the population. One popular argument in favor of such things is that the powerful are powerful enough not to be significantly hindered (although still hindered), and the underwpowered benefit in near-life-or-death proportions for some such laws. A legitimate trade-off to some.

In general, the concept of natural/fundamental rights is appropriate and holds better than alternative theories that people typically try to argue. Think about laws of logic. We can deny them, but if we do we might be violating them by denying them, which people do all the time. Does it make it any less self-evident? Likewise with fundamental rights. Naturally each person wants the freedom to choose their own fate, so even if they choose to "give it up to big government", this recognizes that it was theirs, and they made the choice to loan it out....confirming that it was theirs to begin with. In a sense, fundamental rights is the most liberal of safety nets cast in our civilizations. It ensures that everyone knows that no one else, especially those who band together for power under government, military, or just a gang of killers, can legitimately take your fundamental rights without your reasonable consent. That it's often liberals trying to tear that down is unfortunate. All the welfare in the world isn't worth a tenth of the positive change that the implementation of consent of governed/fundamental rights has done.

For a reality check, you could try to test the legitimacy of governments on certain rights, and see if it matches what you'd expect. Contrast that to whatever competing theory you believe is better. What is your competing belief by the way?
 
A drunk behind the wheel of the car is much more dangerous than one with a gun, a drunk is more likely to shoot himself.

You seem to be missing the point completely or it is just out of your reach, I vote for that one.

Hardware nor machines can kill people without some operating them. It is a choice each makes. Guns don't kill, people kill. Liberals can't grasp that truth as proven when they allow a doctor to take an instrument of death to kill a fetus and clap for that victory on a daily basis.

A drunk behind the wheel of the car is much more dangerous than one with a gun, a drunk is more likely to shoot himself.

But that isn't the argument that you are making. You're saying that a drunk driver is setting out to commit murder. That's simply false. Now you want to change that to the relative danger that a drunk driver presents. Telling me that a drunk is more likely to shoot himself than another person, isn't demonstrably true. What you think is more likely is an opinion, and I have no interest in some opinion over who "you think" a drunk with a gun is going to shoot. There are many different kinds of reaction to alcohol. Some people get giddy, and some people get sloppy, and some get nasty and beligerent and looking for a fight. I don't think I'd like to be around some nasty beligerent drunk with a gun.

You seem to be missing the point completely or it is just out of your reach, I vote for that one.

Your point isn't rocket science. It's just ridiculous. You suggest there is some equivalence between a drunk and a bus and a gun. If we are going to ban a gun, then why not ban alcohol, why not a car or bus. If a person kills somebody with a hammer why not ban hammers. You seem to be missing the point completely or maybe it is out of YOUR reach. None of those things you're talking about required special attention in our constitution. Guns did and that's because of what they are for. They are for killing. That's frowned on in this country. Alcohol was banned with the 18th amendment, but that amounted to morals laws, and only served to create a crime wave and was repealed because it obviously didn't work and was repealed with the 21st.

Guns don't kill, people kill.

Actually it's the bullets that do that, but...fine. Lets keep the guns out of the hands of people that want to use them to kill people. How's that sound? We can start with universal background checks to put a roadblock to their access to weapons that they shoudn't have. Those that can't get a gun because they can't pass a background check will try through straw purchases. So we close that option by imposing severe penalties on straw purchase. We do that for beer or cigarettes to keep people from buying those items for a minor. We should certainly do that for a gun. We have to know that anybody that wants you to buy a gun for them is a person that can't pass a background check. If I know that buying a gun for somebody else will put my ass in prison, I'm not going to risk that for some guy that shouldn't have a gun in the first place. That now makes it harder for the person to get the gun, and as you've pointed out..guns don't kill people..people kill people.

Liberals can't grasp that truth as proven when they allow a doctor to take an instrument of death to kill a fetus and clap for that victory on a daily basis.

So you want to use an analogy of guns and abortion? It's a false analogy. It's like saying Employees are like nails. Just as nails must be hit in the head in order to make them work, so must employees. You're a libertarian aren't you. It says so right on your profile. As a Libertarian you accept that we have a right to our own body to do with as we choose. If we want to sell one of our organs that's our business. A Libertarian view would always be pro-choice. It's the individuals right to decide what they would do with their own body. AND...The government has no right to legislate morality. Thats primary to Libertarian philosophy. You aren't really a Libertarian at all are you. You just kind of like the way it sounds, and it seems like a smarter way of saying, you're a conservative.
 
We can start with universal background checks to put a roadblock to their access to weapons that they shoudn't have. Those that can't get a gun because they can't pass a background check will try through straw purchases. So we close that option by imposing severe penalties on straw purchase. We do that for beer or cigarettes to keep people from buying those items for a minor. We should certainly do that for a gun. We have to know that anybody that wants you to buy a gun for them is a person that can't pass a background check. If I know that buying a gun for somebody else will put my ass in prison, I'm not going to risk that for some guy that shouldn't have a gun in the first place.

Nice Utopian dream, it works so well for keeping kids from drinking and smoking there's no way it wont work for guns!
 
But that isn't the argument that you are making. You're saying that a drunk driver is setting out to commit murder. That's simply false. Now you want to change that to the relative danger that a drunk driver presents. Telling me that a drunk is more likely to shoot himself than another person, isn't demonstrably true. What you think is more likely is an opinion, and I have no interest in some opinion over who "you think" a drunk with a gun is going to shoot. There are many different kinds of reaction to alcohol. Some people get giddy, and some people get sloppy, and some get nasty and beligerent and looking for a fight. I don't think I'd like to be around some nasty beligerent drunk with a gun.



Your point isn't rocket science. It's just ridiculous. You suggest there is some equivalence between a drunk and a bus and a gun. If we are going to ban a gun, then why not ban alcohol, why not a car or bus. If a person kills somebody with a hammer why not ban hammers. You seem to be missing the point completely or maybe it is out of YOUR reach. None of those things you're talking about required special attention in our constitution. Guns did and that's because of what they are for. They are for killing. That's frowned on in this country. Alcohol was banned with the 18th amendment, but that amounted to morals laws, and only served to create a crime wave and was repealed because it obviously didn't work and was repealed with the 21st.



Actually it's the bullets that do that, but...fine. Lets keep the guns out of the hands of people that want to use them to kill people. How's that sound? We can start with universal background checks to put a roadblock to their access to weapons that they shoudn't have. Those that can't get a gun because they can't pass a background check will try through straw purchases. So we close that option by imposing severe penalties on straw purchase. We do that for beer or cigarettes to keep people from buying those items for a minor. We should certainly do that for a gun. We have to know that anybody that wants you to buy a gun for them is a person that can't pass a background check. If I know that buying a gun for somebody else will put my ass in prison, I'm not going to risk that for some guy that shouldn't have a gun in the first place. That now makes it harder for the person to get the gun, and as you've pointed out..guns don't kill people..people kill people.



So you want to use an analogy of guns and abortion? It's a false analogy. It's like saying Employees are like nails. Just as nails must be hit in the head in order to make them work, so must employees. You're a libertarian aren't you. It says so right on your profile. As a Libertarian you accept that we have a right to our own body to do with as we choose. If we want to sell one of our organs that's our business. A Libertarian view would always be pro-choice. It's the individuals right to decide what they would do with their own body. AND...The government has no right to legislate morality. Thats primary to Libertarian philosophy. You aren't really a Libertarian at all are you. You just kind of like the way it sounds, and it seems like a smarter way of saying, you're a conservative.

I am not reading all that tripe, face it, it is out of your reach and above your pay grade
 
Contrary to your initial claim, owning a gun doesn't kill anybody. Whether it's the same as owning a blender or a lamp is irrelevant.

Owning a gun doesn't kill anybody. I'm very aware of that. Owning a gun enables you to kill someobody, and it does that far more efficiently that a blender. The Framers were certainly aware of that when they singled this out for special attention in the Constitution and didn't bother with other items of that period like a horse, a plow or a desk. Why create an amendment for a gun and not a chair?
 
I am not reading all that tripe, face it, it is out of your reach and above your pay grade

The response from a man who's run out of ideas. He can't reason. He can't think. He can't assemble his thoughts. :surrender
 
Owning a gun doesn't kill anybody. I'm very aware of that.

You originally said, "Your right to own a gun doesn't override the rights of their kids to live their lives. That right ends where their own right to life begins." You made it sound as if the simple act of owning a gun posed some sort of danger to others. Thank you for correcting yourself.

Owning a gun enables you to kill someobody, and it does that far more efficiently that a blender. The Framers were certainly aware of that when they singled this out for special attention in the Constitution and didn't bother with other items of that period like a horse, a plow or a desk. Why create an amendment for a gun and not a chair?

Perhaps because they didn't want the government to be able to prevent the people of the states from freely acquiring, keeping, and bearing arms?
 
The response from a man who's run out of ideas. He can't reason. He can't think. He can't assemble his thoughts. :surrender

We realize you for the copy and paster you are. When you are ready to have a real discussion please let us know.
 
The reason why a gun is not just another object like a blender or a lamp is obvious, and that's why it gets special attention in the constitution that the others do not. As you are pointing out, it has special attention given to it in the constitution that the other objects do not get because it has a purpose that has consequences that the others do not have. It's purpose is to kill. That's not what a blender is designed for. You could hit somebody over the head I suppose with a blender and if you hit them in the right spot, it might do the job, but you won't be going into a movie theater looking to pull off a mass killing by using a blender. We don't arm our military with blenders. If they were no different then a gun, why not equip them with those. It would be cheaper and reduce the deficit. A gun has a different purpose, and that purpose is significant enough to require special attention in the Constitution. So the argument that it's just another object that poses no threat to anybody is simply false. If that were true, we wouldn't even have a 2nd Amendment that deals with guns.


uh yeah. GUns are a form of power. those of us who want decentralized power oppose gun restrictions that concentrate gun power in the hand of the state. Those who want more power centralized in the hands of the government tend to support gun restrictions

I just wish the gun haters would stop pretending that public safety was their main or even secondary goal

its not
 
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