What do we need the state for?

[kaya'08]

You're still well within your 25 minutes to edit and quote 'the right thing' :2wave:

I'm trying to interrogate this...Jerry you're upstairs..."veteran" ...so step aside and let me work my dark magic.

Ok.

(10 words)

 

[Councilman]

What has it done for you, so far?

I have been discharged from the military because I lied about my asthma and "fraudulent enlistment" or something like that is on my record now. Since last October, I applied to countless jobs around my area and have never even scored an INTERVIEW!

Now that I really think about it, I think joining the military to serve MY COUNTRY is STUPID! How am I going to defend my friends and family when I am overseas? Forming a local security service to protect the neighborhood from burglars and crooks is the only way to "protect" my community.

The formal military in our country is simply serving the will of the STATE! There is nothing being gained in the streets of Afghanistan except my countrymen being blown up and shot at, while we secure an area for our POLITICIANS of the UN to make a democratic government for people who never even asked for it!

I understand the REAL PATRIOTS of this country who are currently forming MILITIAS, which are truly their to serve and protect the PEOPLE!

The government has not payed my bills, put food in my stomach, or put clothes on my back. I no longer see the LEGITIMACY of the STATE, and will do my part to empower the PEOPLE and free them from the oppression of the office building. They did nothing but put my brothers in jail for the possession of marijuana!

Okay, now let us discuss the state!

You seem like someone who wanted to get involved and make a difference not only in this country but when you join our military you will be asked to protect people around the world and this is a good thing for which I commend you. However your not being honest is not reason to lash out at those who were simply doing their jobs and enforcing the regulations you attempted to skirt. Instead of being bitter put that energy to work for you and use your desire to do the right thing and make a difference to do just that. There are places organizations and even political offices that would look upon your attempt to do a noble thing as just that. Believe me there are things that need the attention of an intelligent thinking person whose head and heart are in the right place and local politics is a good place to start by volunteering for a city board or commission after you have done the research to learn the inner workings of how things are done. Then use that experience as a spring board into and elected office. City government is a good entry level first step to higher office. You can make a deference in your city then maybe County, and State working your way up. The amount of good you can accomplish and deference you can make is up to you and the amount of effort and the desire you're willing to put into it.
As to finding job all employers do not require a copy of your DD-214 and if it doesn't come up don't bring it up. If it does be honest and explain that you didn't think you asthma was relevant at the time and you were trying to do the right thing and serve your country.
At this point in time it's all about attitude and desire. Good luck.

 

[Goshin]

The "state" is not the mere presence of political order; the state is the formal, centralized, hierarchical body of government that exists in effectively all modern nations. As put by Kropotkin (yeah, I'm a fan ), "the word 'State' . . . should be reserved for those societies with the hierarchical system and centralization." Hence, I don't believe it's a necessary condition for a state to exist in an organized society; I'm of the opinion that horizontal federations of decentralized and non-hierarchical municipalities managed through participatory direct democracy could replace the state. And before it even comes, please consult Section I.5.5 of An Anarchist FAQ, entitled Aren't participatory communities and confederations just new states?, if you're planning to inquire about that. :2razz:

Agna, you're an intresting guy but I hate arguing with you. Everytime I disagree with you, you try to force me to read half a book's worth of Kropotkin, Godwin and whoever. :mrgreen:

I will (gritting my teeth and waiting for the artillery barrage of counterpoints and Anarchist FAQ links) say that Kropotkin's definition of "State" seems conveniently narrow. Local governments, even if "democratic", can be just as oppressive and unreasonable as centralized national governments...anybody who has ever tried to "fight City Hall" will be familiar with that.

As for non-hierarchial organizations... well there's variations but in my experience any group without one "head man" rarely accomplishes much.
"A committee is the only form of life known in the galaxy with at least half a dozen legs, three or more heads, and no brain." - Heinlein.

 

[Agnapostate]

I will (gritting my teeth and waiting for the artillery barrage of counterpoints and Anarchist FAQ links) say that Kropotkin's definition of "State" seems conveniently narrow. Local governments, even if "democratic", can be just as oppressive and unreasonable as centralized national governments...anybody who has ever tried to "fight City Hall" will be familiar with that.

Grassroots political management is not a sufficient condition for an absence of a state, though it is a necessary one. Along with the complete abolition of centralized hierarchy (which is certainly not a condition of the environment in which municipal governance presently exists), bottom-up and decentralized direct democratic management are necessary elements of the legitimate existence of non-statist participatory organization.

As for non-hierarchial organizations... well there's variations but in my experience any group without one "head man" rarely accomplishes much.

That's the problem; there's an excessive reliance on anecdotal "evidence." Conversely, there is a substantial empirical literature that illustrates the benefits of more horizontal workers' management in economic enterprises, as well as numerous more informal accounts of the practical implementation of such a system in many contexts. For example, the Argentine factory recovery movement occurred after the 2001 economic collapse brought about by neoliberalism, and involved the takeover of 170 to 200 workplaces by ten to fifteen thousand workers, including such notable examples as the Hotel Bauen, the Brukman factory, and the Fabrica Sin Patrones. Consider Naomi Klein's The Brukman Battle.

Here in Buenos Aires, every week brings news of a new occupation: a four-star hotel now run by its cleaning staff, a supermarket taken by its clerks, a regional airline about to be turned into a cooperative by the pilots and attendants...After getting the keys from the doorman, Martinez and the other workers slept at the factory. They have been running it every since. They have paid the outstanding bills, attracted new clients, and without profits and management salaries to worry about, managed to pay themselves steady salaries. All these decisions have been made democratically, by vote in open assemblies. “I don’t know why the owners had such a hard time,” Martinez says. “I don’t know much about accounting but for me it’s easy: addition and subtraction.”

There's a unique propensity toward the excessive prevalence of principal-agent problems (agency dilemmas) in the capitalist economy because of the effective separation of ownership and control that occurs, so the principal thus seeks elaborate schemes (profit sharing, efficiency wages, etc.) to compel the agent to do what he wants. Aside from the minimization of this problem in worker-owned enterprises and labor cooperatives, it is of course entirely elimination in the socialist economy, particularly the libertarian socialist economy.

 

[Jerry]

Ok.

(10 words)

And of course he ran away. Oh well.