• The forum will be going down at about 7:30 AM CST Oct 16 for maintenance. We should be down less than 1 hour.

  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

What do the Saudi's have on Trump?

independentusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 10, 2016
Messages
9,510
Reaction score
4,304
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-saudi-arabia/index.html
I really wonder what the Saudi's have on Trump or his family. Trump says the reason that he won't do anything more to the Saudi's is that he believes in America first. Now if any of you actually believe that is the real reason I have a bridge to sell you. I have to believe it either has something to do with money borrowed and owed, or some secret that might harm Trump or a family member. I will bet there are plenty out there that will actually believe this has something to do with the arms sales pending as Trump blathers on about, but I can't believe, can you?
 

Omega Man

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
970
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Going after bin Salman - as an economic and social reformer - has some very serious implications when it comes down to fragile foreign policy and the balance of power. That's a whole other powder keg that could make ISIS look rather tame by comparison.


OM
 

Manc Skipper

Wrinkly member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
34,884
Reaction score
23,742
Location
Southern England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Money is a Saudi weapon of choice. Trump craves it. It doesn't hurt them that there isn't a murderous despot he doesn't admire.
 

poweRob

USMC 1988-1996
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
65,387
Reaction score
32,094
Location
New Mexico
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-saudi-arabia/index.html
I really wonder what the Saudi's have on Trump or his family. Trump says the reason that he won't do anything more to the Saudi's is that he believes in America first. Now if any of you actually believe that is the real reason I have a bridge to sell you. I have to believe it either has something to do with money borrowed and owed, or some secret that might harm Trump or a family member. I will bet there are plenty out there that will actually believe this has something to do with the arms sales pending as Trump blathers on about, but I can't believe, can you?

Trump registered eight companies in Saudi Arabia during campaign: report
 

Lutherf

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
40,898
Reaction score
47,278
Location
Tucson, AZ
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
A few years back everyone was complaining that the US was the "World's Policeman" and that we kept on butting in where we don't belong. Now the Saudis have this Khashoggi scandal and everyone wants the US to step in and "fix" the Saudis. How do you propose we "fix" Saudi Arabia? Should we kick in their door and force all their leaders off to the stockade? Should we **** over one of our strategic allies in the ME just to prove a point thus letting Iran (and Russia) more or less have free reign in the region? What idea do you have that's better than "let the Saudis take care of their own while keeping an eye on the process and whispering a little about what we'd like to see done"?
 

Omega Man

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
970
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Money is a Saudi weapon of choice. Trump craves it. It doesn't hurt them that there isn't a murderous despot he doesn't admire.

More than likely this may have nothing to do with Trump's money, in the overall picture.


OM
 

Omega Man

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
970
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
A few years back everyone was complaining that the US was the "World's Policeman" and that we kept on butting in where we don't belong. Now the Saudis have this Khashoggi scandal and everyone wants the US to step in and "fix" the Saudis. How do you propose we "fix" Saudi Arabia? Should we kick in their door and force all their leaders off to the stockade? Should we **** over one of our strategic allies in the ME just to prove a point thus letting Iran (and Russia) more or less have free reign in the region? What idea do you have that's better than "let the Saudis take care of their own while keeping an eye on the process and whispering a little about what we'd like to see done"?

And of course by doing all that, we risk them aligning with Russia, and their youth bulge radicalizing.


OM
 

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
45,404
Reaction score
11,744
Location
Olympia Wa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
What do the Saudi's have on us has been a question that has been asked for decades as American power constantly bends over backwards to keep them happy.....this is not about Trump.
 

Felis Leo

Moral clarity is needed
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Messages
9,204
Reaction score
9,881
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-saudi-arabia/index.html
I really wonder what the Saudi's have on Trump or his family. Trump says the reason that he won't do anything more to the Saudi's is that he believes in America first. Now if any of you actually believe that is the real reason I have a bridge to sell you. I have to believe it either has something to do with money borrowed and owed, or some secret that might harm Trump or a family member. I will bet there are plenty out there that will actually believe this has something to do with the arms sales pending as Trump blathers on about, but I can't believe, can you?

You will forgive me, independentusa, but this is an utterly nonsensical ahistorical perspective; history didn't begin with Donald Trump and Saudi Arabia didn't just become a brutal tyranny yesterday. The United States government has let the Saudi Arabian government get away with the torture, executions and assassinations of multiple dissidents and heretics in the past; maintaining an Iron Age legal code and governmental structure; and spreading Sunni extremist ideology across the world more effectively than the Soviet Union spread the concepts of Revolutionary Socialism for literally decades with nary more than a peep. Is it seriously your contention that the Saudis had dirt any every other president from Franklin Delalon Roosevelt to Barack Obama since they allowed them to get away with just as many atrocities?


The reason we let them get away with so much is the same reason that we sided with Stalin during the Second World War. They are a key ally in a vital region and if the Saudi government falls, the Western Sphere of Influence's economic future is threatened due to cutting off of a major source of the global petrochemical energy supply. It is really nothing more than that.

Simply put, to the United States governments: Jamal Kashoggi's life isn't worth abandoning the Saudi Royal family or Saudi Arabia as a key ally in the region. The Saudi government could probably chop up and liquefy ten thousand journalists on public television, and our government would still side with them. If you think that any other President would have acted any differently under similar circumstances and sanctioned or abandoned Saudi Arabia, I have a bridge to sell you in exchange for the one you wanted to sell me.
 
Last edited:

lwf

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
10,999
Reaction score
6,214
Location
PNW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Going after bin Salman - as an economic and social reformer - has some very serious implications when it comes down to fragile foreign policy and the balance of power. That's a whole other powder keg that could make ISIS look rather tame by comparison.


OM

But the next question is: What behavior would then be considered unacceptable? If the torture and cold-blooded murder of an innocent journalist is tolerated due to the importance of the relationship, then what else is there? If what you say is a factor worth considering, then can MBS now literally do anything he wants to anyone he wants? Does his sheer political power put him entirely above reproach?

I posit that the responsibility for all of the horrible fallout that would result from the US upholding the principles upon which the country was founded and severing all ties with MBS would rest squarely on the shoulders of the man who violated all norms of human decency and ordered the murder of a journalist. The dignity of the United States should never be for sale to another country, no matter how high the price.
 
Last edited:

JoanDavis

Banned
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
1,303
Reaction score
594
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-saudi-arabia/index.html
I really wonder what the Saudi's have on Trump or his family. Trump says the reason that he won't do anything more to the Saudi's is that he believes in America first. Now if any of you actually believe that is the real reason I have a bridge to sell you. I have to believe it either has something to do with money borrowed and owed, or some secret that might harm Trump or a family member. I will bet there are plenty out there that will actually believe this has something to do with the arms sales pending as Trump blathers on about, but I can't believe, can you?

trump has borrowed millions of dollars from the Russians and the Saudis. When he used this morning's rant on the white house lawn to deny that he has no business interests with the Saudis , we all know that he is LYING yet again.

The Saudis and Russians own trump ....and therefore own the USA.
 

ipsofacto

Banned
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
732
Reaction score
161
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-saudi-arabia/index.html
I really wonder what the Saudi's have on Trump or his family. Trump says the reason that he won't do anything more to the Saudi's is that he believes in America first. Now if any of you actually believe that is the real reason I have a bridge to sell you. I have to believe it either has something to do with money borrowed and owed, or some secret that might harm Trump or a family member. I will bet there are plenty out there that will actually believe this has something to do with the arms sales pending as Trump blathers on about, but I can't believe, can you?


Trump wants to be a king. He admires the Saudi monarchy.
 

WillyPete

The sound of one chao mooing.
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Sep 17, 2013
Messages
4,569
Reaction score
2,319
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-saudi-arabia/index.html
I really wonder what the Saudi's have on Trump or his family. Trump says the reason that he won't do anything more to the Saudi's is that he believes in America first. Now if any of you actually believe that is the real reason I have a bridge to sell you. I have to believe it either has something to do with money borrowed and owed, or some secret that might harm Trump or a family member. I will bet there are plenty out there that will actually believe this has something to do with the arms sales pending as Trump blathers on about, but I can't believe, can you?

Nevermind Trump, SA is the single largest customer of the Military Industrial Complex. Trump's arms deal is just a continuation of a very long strategic understanding.

That's many many thousands of jobs and a great deal of ME influence in the balance. That's a process we started long before Trump, and whoever explained it to Trump probably used pretty emphatic language.

To the capitalist, this is a no-brainer. The journalist wasn't a citizen, and went to this meeting voluntarily. You think the U.S. has never killed anyone under those circumstances?

Yes this was an awful crime, and it reflects poorly on SA, but who ever thought they were choir boys? The time to stand on morals was back when we cut the arms for oil/influence deal in the first place.

And finally, the ultimate problem isn't the loss of arms sales, or access to oil, or influence. The key thing many people fail to understand is that if we don't have a deal with SA, someone else will. Russia and China would love to have access to all SA can offer them, and they'll compete to get it. For Russian in particular that would be a game-changer.

What good would come of marrying these brutal bastards to those brutal bastards, and making a enemy of a friend to boot?
 

marke

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
34,752
Reaction score
3,960
Location
north carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-saudi-arabia/index.html
I really wonder what the Saudi's have on Trump or his family. Trump says the reason that he won't do anything more to the Saudi's is that he believes in America first. Now if any of you actually believe that is the real reason I have a bridge to sell you. I have to believe it either has something to do with money borrowed and owed, or some secret that might harm Trump or a family member. I will bet there are plenty out there that will actually believe this has something to do with the arms sales pending as Trump blathers on about, but I can't believe, can you?

I agree with your suspicion of conspiracies in government. For example, we could ask what the democrats had on Sessions to make him recuse himself so the leftist lions from the tribe of Obama embedded in the Justice Department could have free corrupted rein to go after Trump.
 

Xelor

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2018
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
4,161
Location
Washington, D.C.
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
What do the Saudi's have on Trump?

Do they need anything on him? Look at Putin's position on the matter first.
It's really quite clear: Trump leads nobody, and follows Putin and his bank account.
 

lwf

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
10,999
Reaction score
6,214
Location
PNW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Nevermind Trump, SA is the single largest customer of the Military Industrial Complex. Trump's arms deal is just a continuation of a very long strategic understanding.

That's many many thousands of jobs and a great deal of ME influence in the balance. That's a process we started long before Trump, and whoever explained it to Trump probably used pretty emphatic language.

To the capitalist, this is a no-brainer. The journalist wasn't a citizen, and went to this meeting voluntarily. You think the U.S. has never killed anyone under those circumstances?

Yes this was an awful crime, and it reflects poorly on SA, but who ever thought they were choir boys? The time to stand on morals was back when we cut the arms for oil/influence deal in the first place.

And finally, the ultimate problem isn't the loss of arms sales, or access to oil, or influence. The key thing many people fail to understand is that if we don't have a deal with SA, someone else will. Russia and China would love to have access to all SA can offer them, and they'll compete to get it. For Russian in particular that would be a game-changer.

What good would come of marrying these brutal bastards to those brutal bastards, and making a enemy of a friend to boot?

So let them do whatever they want and keep sending them weapons because if we don't they might gang up on us? Doesn't that make us look weak?
 

Risky Thicket

Sewer Rat
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
31,366
Reaction score
32,647
Location
With Yo Mama
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
President Stable Genius is certain that poor forest management is the reason for California fires and it's their own damned fault. Trump has said so several times. No federal agency has declared that. Trump as usual is just arsing it and has no idea what the hell he is talking about. Trump said the president of Finland told him what the problem was and informed him of the solution. The President of Finland said he never told Trump that.

Turkey's intelligence agencies and American intelligence, specifically, the CIA told the White House that Mohammed bin Salman was directly involved in the murder of Khashoggi yet Trump pees on the CIA and publicly doubts the CIA. :roll:

Fires in California Trump blames California with no knowledge as to what could or should have been done to mitigate the fires. The Saudi crown prince is according to the CIA directly involved in the murder of Khashoggi and Trump blows off the CIA before even reading their report, not that he would ever read it or could read it.

What a leader!
 

Cardinal

Respected on both sides
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
82,118
Reaction score
61,363
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-saudi-arabia/index.html
I really wonder what the Saudi's have on Trump or his family. Trump says the reason that he won't do anything more to the Saudi's is that he believes in America first. Now if any of you actually believe that is the real reason I have a bridge to sell you. I have to believe it either has something to do with money borrowed and owed, or some secret that might harm Trump or a family member. I will bet there are plenty out there that will actually believe this has something to do with the arms sales pending as Trump blathers on about, but I can't believe, can you?

Well, actually, this one's not all that difficult to work out. They have lots and lots of money that they're giving his businesses. Know how I know this? Because that's what Trump said.

Corruption doesn't always have to be demonstrated in secret. In fact, I'd argue that there's very little corruption in this Administration that has been done in secret.
 

Cardinal

Respected on both sides
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
82,118
Reaction score
61,363
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Going after bin Salman - as an economic and social reformer - has some very serious implications when it comes down to fragile foreign policy and the balance of power. That's a whole other powder keg that could make ISIS look rather tame by comparison.


OM

Referring to a journalist that was murdered by a foreign authoritarian an "enemy of the state" also has some dire consequences.

Journalism abroad just got a whole lot more dangerous.

More than likely this may have nothing to do with Trump's money, in the overall picture.

Personal profit was quite specifically what Trump found to be a compelling reason for not antagonizing Saudi Arabia.
 
Last edited:

ipsofacto

Banned
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
732
Reaction score
161
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Well, actually, this one's not all that difficult to work out. They have lots and lots of money that they're giving his businesses. Know how I know this? Because that's what Trump said.

Corruption doesn't always have to be demonstrated in secret. In fact, I'd argue that there's very little corruption in this Administration that has been done in secret.


It's the idea that Trump can't be prosecuted for crimes he openly admits he did.
 

ipsofacto

Banned
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
732
Reaction score
161
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Calling a journalist that was murdered by a foreign authoritarian an "enemy of the people" also has some dire consequences.

Journalism abroad just got a whole lot more dangerous.



Personal profit was quite specifically what Trump found to be a compelling reason for not antagonizing Saudi Arabia.


Trump praised Congressman Gianforte for beating up a journalist.
 

WillyPete

The sound of one chao mooing.
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Sep 17, 2013
Messages
4,569
Reaction score
2,319
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
So let them do whatever they want and keep sending them weapons because if we don't they might gang up on us? Doesn't that make us look weak?

No, failing to abide by our arrangement over this makes us actually weak.

Oil is the blood of modern armies, ours more than any other. The oil you control is directly proportional to your ability to make war.

Losing control of that source to a strategic opponent would potentially imperil our entire military and nation.

Consider also what its says to our other international partners, if we are willing to reverse course over a single death? Why would they ever again think long term in their dealings with the U.S., if we're going to betray them over any unrelated grievance that pops up?

Sorry, I'd like justice for this guy, but the price is too high.
 

jnug

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 23, 2018
Messages
20,690
Reaction score
7,725
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Going after bin Salman - as an economic and social reformer - has some very serious implications when it comes down to fragile foreign policy and the balance of power. That's a whole other powder keg that could make ISIS look rather tame by comparison.


OM

Horse bleep. Talk about overblown hyperbole. Nobody ever heaped such praise on Saudi when Saudi was a much more compelling nation on the world stage. Utter nonsense.
 

jnug

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 23, 2018
Messages
20,690
Reaction score
7,725
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Nevermind Trump, SA is the single largest customer of the Military Industrial Complex. Trump's arms deal is just a continuation of a very long strategic understanding.

That's many many thousands of jobs and a great deal of ME influence in the balance. That's a process we started long before Trump, and whoever explained it to Trump probably used pretty emphatic language.

To the capitalist, this is a no-brainer. The journalist wasn't a citizen, and went to this meeting voluntarily. You think the U.S. has never killed anyone under those circumstances?

Yes this was an awful crime, and it reflects poorly on SA, but who ever thought they were choir boys? The time to stand on morals was back when we cut the arms for oil/influence deal in the first place.

And finally, the ultimate problem isn't the loss of arms sales, or access to oil, or influence. The key thing many people fail to understand is that if we don't have a deal with SA, someone else will. Russia and China would love to have access to all SA can offer them, and they'll compete to get it. For Russian in particular that would be a game-changer.

What good would come of marrying these brutal bastards to those brutal bastards, and making a enemy of a friend to boot?

The defense industry has already checked in on this deal. Tops, 45,000 net jobs added and thats tops! Plus the Saudi's are not going anywhere. They already have too much invested in US systems to haul off and start buying from Russia or China. That is all just more Trump garbage. They won't get anywhere near $450B out of that deal. Lucky to get a $100B out of it all in. "They are buying lots of things". Why in Gods name do some of us swallow such swill? "100's of billions of dollars in orders". You don't have 100's of billions of dollars Donald you lying sack.

I am not all that concerned about using the arms deal as a point of retribution against Saudi. IT JUST IS NOT WORTH ENOUGH TO MATTER. Trump talking garbage again.

However there is utterly no reason for Trump to be bathing MBS's balls which is what Trump is doing. i just cannot believe people applauding Trump when he is on his knees pawing at the zippers of sludge like MBS, KJU and Putin. I don't mind Trump the person pawing at their zippers. I very much mind the President of the United States pawing at their zippers.

Since when does US foreign policy in the Middle East run through Riyadh. Ridiculous... that was not the case when Saudi had more to offer for God sake.
 
Last edited:

lwf

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
10,999
Reaction score
6,214
Location
PNW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
No, failing to abide by our arrangement over this makes us actually weak.

Oil is the blood of modern armies, ours more than any other. The oil you control is directly proportional to your ability to make war.

Losing control of that source to a strategic opponent would potentially imperil our entire military and nation.

Consider also what its says to our other international partners, if we are willing to reverse course over a single death? Why would they ever again think long term in their dealings with the U.S., if we're going to betray them over any unrelated grievance that pops up?

Sorry, I'd like justice for this guy, but the price is too high.

Isn't the message: "If you want to do business with the U.S., you have to respect human rights?" Why would Americans care if their international partners don't trust them to honor their deals every time they order the murder of an innocent civilian for political purposes? Doesn't America generally see those governments as enemies anyway? Isn't that why they sanctioned the hell out of Russia over the Skripal poisoning? And Skripal was a defector. Khashogghi was just a journalist with an opinion that differed from the one approved of by the Saudi government. When did the United States of America become subordinate to Saudi Arabia?

Sorry, but this is a pathetically weak move, if your premise is true. If America is so slavishly dependent Saudi Arabian oil that they can't even call them out on a gross human rights violation ordered by the government, then Saudi Arabia is clearly the one holding all the cards and calling all the shots. If you're right, it's not that the U.S. temporarily appears weak. It simply IS weak. Weaker than Saudi Arabia, at least. Maybe this started long before Donald Trump's administration, but he's obviously on board with it 100%. So much for America's traditional supremacy in the world.

I suppose it's a similar psychological phenomenon to what we see in die-hard Trump supporters. If you operate from a position of weakness and see a terrifying enemy in your future, it (apparently) becomes easier to excuse bad behavior because we need him to fight the stronger enemy. Maybe cowardice is the real source of the modern-day abandonment of things like dignity, integrity, and compassion in favor of strength.
 
Top Bottom