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What do liberals want?

Yes and my state is one that is trying to suppress the vote. They said they had to match up my maiden name with every name I have had in my life. The social security office has already done this, so the only explaination is they are trying to make it as hard as possible for people to get voter IDs in my state.

Your State sucking, specifically your DMV sucking, has nothing to do with voter suppression. Feel free to expound on how it is the only explanation. :roll:
 
lol That isn't the way it works. FIrst you have to register to vote. By registering to vote, it would prevent me from voting anywhere other than the district I live in. We do not have open voting here. You can't just walk into every voting district and vote. They have your name on a list and when they hand you the ballot, they mark your name off the list. We also get a registration card listing the district and place we go to vote.

You didn't understand what he said.
 
Your State sucking, specifically your DMV sucking, has nothing to do with voter suppression.

You apparently don't understand federal law in regard to this issue.

The state is putting an unreasonable burden on her, sucking or otherwise. The reason for the burden doesn't matter, the resulting burden is the only issue addressed in federal law.

Federal law. Federal law. Those are very important words with a national election and immigration.


Feel free to expound on how it is the only explanation. :roll:

The explanation for someone having a hard time voting does not matter with regard to federal law.
 
You apparently don't understand federal law in regard to this issue.

The state is putting an unreasonable burden on her, sucking or otherwise. The reason for the burden doesn't matter, the resulting burden is the only issue addressed in federal law.

Federal law. Federal law. Those are very important words with a national election and immigration.




The explanation for someone having a hard time voting does not matter with regard to federal law.

Providing ID is not putting an extra burden on anyone. You act as if people only have a 30 minute window throughout the course of 4 years to go up to the DMV, and get a state issued ID. Give me a break.

This is what I mean about liberals....they can't be honest. This issue isn't about "burdens" and "inconvenience", get a life. Liberals use the DUMBEST arguments, which are dishonest, because they know if they tell the truth about why they really oppose voter ID laws, that no one in America will agree with them, except other far left loons. This issue is about what liberals have done covertly for many years, which is fraudulently registering voters, including illegal immigrants, and getting a big chunk of them to vote. A person can obtain a state issued ID......FOR FREE!!!! HEAR THAT? FOR FREE!!! And liberals wanna tell me that it places an unreasonable burden on a person when they have at least 2 years to go get one? I swear, liberals are pretty ballsy. To just make up a stupid reason like "it's burdensome", is beyond laughable.

Tell the truth liberals....tell us why you REALLY oppose voter ID laws. Don't be cowards anymore, just tell us what you really believe.
 
Ok, this thread is close enough to my recent thoughts on what is "best" for our economy and country.

Not even liberals can deny that when people are working, and earning money for themselves, they fair much better for themselves than they could ever do on welfare, foodstamps, medicaid, etc. Seriously, it's not even close. Most families utilizing welfare receive approximately $1000 per month in assistance. That's not much at all. It's a mere $12,000 per year. Granted, they can claim a tax deduction, or credit, for each child, but I'm just talking about welfare and foodstamps. Compare that to the average income of Americans of $50,000 per year. It's more than 4 times what a person can receive on welfare.

So, here's my question, if we all know that people are far better off when they AREN'T on welfare, why does the left emphasize welfare so heavily? I mean, the White House has a special website that trains people how to get ON welfare, or get MORE government assistance. Wouldn't the best thing we could do is get people OFF welfare? Now, there's an endless debate about "how" we do just that. Let's save that debate for another day. My main focus is the overall mentality and philosophy behind the left's position on welfare. They mock the ideals of "personal responsibility" and "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". They didn't used to do this. Bill Clinton put into place a work provision in welfare, and it had a major impact.

I just don't understand why the left's focus is more on getting people ON welfare, and not getting them OFF? Benjamin Franklin said the best way to raise people from poverty was to "DRIVE them from it", and to stop making people "comfortable in their poverty". Contemplating his writings on the subject, I begin to gauk at the liberal position. The manifestations of the left's philosophies behind welfare actually increase the comfort level for those on welfare. By increasing benefits, extending unemployment out to 99 weeks, increasing payments for more and more children born out of wedlock, etc. This makes people MORE comfortable in their poverty.

Don't take me the wrong way. I have a deep compassion for the poor, and help the poor as much as I can with time and money. I was poor growing up as well, and I know how difficult it can be to make ends meet. But I witnessed what my family did. My father worked 3 jobs for a while. We grew a garden, and my mother was amazing at taking just a few food items, and stretching them throughout the week. They worked tirelessly trying to build a family business. And after 35 years of struggling, they had built a successful business, and they are financially comfortable now. We never took welfare. Never took food stamps. Never filed bankrputcy. We got by.

My family isn't unique. They are simply hard working people. There are lots of hard working people out there making it in this country. That's honorable. And instead of talking down to folks like my parents by telling them that "they didn't build that", or that society is just as responsible for their success as they are, Obama should be not only encouraging people to work harder, but utilizing government programs to push people FROM welfare, not to it.

Why do liberals oppose the idea of drug testing before a person can receive welfare benefits? Millions of Americans must pass random drug tests every single day in order to work. Why not people using welfare? There has to be more accountability for people using the safety net. What do you think goes through the mind's of people like Nancy Pelosi when she said the best way to stimulate the economy is through unemployment benefits??? Seriously? Does anyone here believe that? Why do liberals oppose block granting Medicaid to the states? It would give more oversight locally which would cut down on fraud and waste. Why do liberals oppose school vouchers? This would give parents the power to remove their children from failing schools, and give them a better chance at the education needed to succeed in this country. So why? Why do liberals support choice when it comes to abortion, but oppose choice when it comes to the education of our children?

These are all serious questions. I'm not bashing them, I'm trying to understand WHY! They say they want "affordable health care" for all. That's great, so do I. But wouldn't it be better for our economic future if those people could afford it themselves? Of course it would! Problem is, this isn't the quick fix that many Americans are looking for. It's not politically expedient for politicians to promote "the hard way but the best way". Bottom line is this, I've spoken to many liberals who tell me, "you can't make people become responsible". Oh really? Yes you can, over time. Responsibility is a "conditioned behavior". Meaning, you can "condition" a person to become more responsible. You would be surprised what people CAN do when they HAVE to do it. But I suppose that's just too harsh for the left. There are so many things we could be doing that "conditions" people to becoming more responsible. I've already mentioned a few.

Obama always says, "no one said this would be easy. The road is long, and challenging". Well, he's right. Problem is, he's leading us down the wrong road! The road of higher debts, more money printing, higher unemployment, higher commodity prices that hurt the middle and lower class, higher fuel prices that effect every single American, fewer tax payers, and thousands more regulations that slow business growth.....that's not the right road, and most Americans know it. We need our government to lead by example, and show a little responsibility. Start at the top America, get the government in check. They are out of control. We cant expect our citizens to be more responsible, when the leaders we've elected are completely and utterly irresponsible.

Here are my thoughts on the economy and what is best for our country. First of all, tax cuts to the wealthier class is not class warfare. It only puts a larger burden on the middle class. Once the middle class is taxed too much, they become the lower class and are pushed into dependency on the government to feed their families and provide basic care. Social programs are not designed to make more people dependent on government. Higher taxes on people that can not afford it is what pushes people into government dependency.
In today’s economy, we can’t just say people should just go out and get a job instead of turning to welfare to provide their needs. There are not enough jobs to expect people to just go out and get a job. Most of the people depending on welfare right now would rather have jobs. Welfare only sustains the needs of families. It does not improve their lives.
The left emphasizes welfare for those who can not provide for themselves. We have a welfare to work program designed to help people get jobs and get back to work. But again, there are too few jobs to be had currently. So, what are people supposed to do if there are not enough jobs? Are they supposed to let their children starve? There is no training program designed to teach people how to get on welfare. It is information on what help is available to people who need the help.
I have yet to hear any liberal mock the idea of personal responsibility. Liberals are looking to help those who need help. No one can pull themselves up by their boot straps if they have no boot straps. Living on welfare is far from comfortable. As you mentioned, the amount of welfare is not enough to provide a comfortable life. The extension of unemployment benefits is based on the fact that our current lack of jobs situation is no fault of the unemployed.

Back when your family built themselves up from poverty, there were more opportunities for people to do that than there are now. The middle class was thriving back then. The middle class is now shrinking. Peoples homes are worth less now than they owe on them. People have very few resources to pull themselves out of poverty. There are a lot of hard working people that simply can not get jobs either have to watch their children starve or they must accept food stamps.
No one has said those who built businesses didn’t build it. What was said is that people who build businesses didn’t do it on their own. The claim that government has no impact on job creation is a false ideology. The government has created an infrastructure that allowed these people to become successful in building their businesses. Now, it is time for those who made it to pay it back so that future generations can have the same opportunities they had.

The reason I oppose drug testing for those getting welfare is that Florida makes people pay for the drug test first. Also, the governor of Florida said anyone getting money from the government must be drug tested. When he was asked if he would take a drug test because he gets government money, he said no. So, why not drug test all state employees, including politicians. Also, the drug testing costs the state more money making welfare programs a lot more expensive.
To answer your question about Polosi saying unemployment benefits stimulates the economy is because it does. Until real jobs are created, money must circulate. I haven’t got the time to teach economics, but money circulation stimulates the economy. The states are already in charge of Medicaid. I won’t get into school voucher programs because I would have to do my homework on that one. I am currently over joyed with the schools my child and grandchildren attend. Choice in abortion and choice in education are two drastically different things.

You talk a lot about personal responsibility. Lets talk more about corporate responsibility. Why should we pay twice as much, and in some years 10xs as much, on corporate welfare than social welfare? Wall Street took no responsibility for crashing our economy. They got bailed out, but increased fees on customers and continued the came practices they did before they got bailed out. I would rather talk more about how we make Wall Street and big corporations more responsible for their bad actions when they destroy out economy or our environment. There are so many people who accepted million dollar bonuses all the while destroying jobs for the hard working Americans who never wanted to be taking welfare to begin with. Where is the Conservatives outcry for responsibility in these cases? Instead of being outraged over the lack of responsibility corporations have in our economy, the GOP puts one of the bad corporate actors on the ballot.
It is clear to me that Obama is leading us down the right path, but the GOP expects him to fix the economy over night all the while they are obstructing progress. We are better off today than we were 4 years ago. We were bleeding over 700K jobs a month. Obama reversed that and we have had job growth. Romney just wants to put us right back on the path that lead to our economic crash to begin with. Obama’s actual debt increase has been less than 2 trillion over the last 3 and ½ years. 4 Trillion was spent under the previous Bush budget. No President controls fuel prices. Wall Street has more control over fuel prices than the government does.

Did you know that Romeny has investments in companies that out-source jobs to China? Wow, that’s an American who is rooting for American workers. I say No Thank You to Romney.
 
Providing ID is not putting an extra burden on anyone. You act as if people only have a 30 minute window throughout the course of 4 years to go up to the DMV, and get a state issued ID. Give me a break.

This is what I mean about liberals....they can't be honest. This issue isn't about "burdens" and "inconvenience", get a life. Liberals use the DUMBEST arguments, which are dishonest, because they know if they tell the truth about why they really oppose voter ID laws, that no one in America will agree with them, except other far left loons. This issue is about what liberals have done covertly for many years, which is fraudulently registering voters, including illegal immigrants, and getting a big chunk of them to vote. A person can obtain a state issued ID......FOR FREE!!!! HEAR THAT? FOR FREE!!! And liberals wanna tell me that it places an unreasonable burden on a person when they have at least 2 years to go get one? I swear, liberals are pretty ballsy. To just make up a stupid reason like "it's burdensome", is beyond laughable.

Tell the truth liberals....tell us why you REALLY oppose voter ID laws. Don't be cowards anymore, just tell us what you really believe.

I really want to see your evidence that liberal have been fraudulently registering voters for years.
 
1. Ensure that all Americans have access to health care (preferably single payor).
2. Ensure that all Americans have access to education. Invest in public schools and low cost college loans available to all.
3. Let the taxes go back to Clinton levels. That will help the budget!
4. Heavily fine companies that outsource American jobs. If they need to cut their labor costs, they can automize and use their "Yankee ingenuity." But, keep the jobs here!
5. Promote the development of affordable, renewable energy (i.e. more use of geothermal, natural gas, very low cost of solar kits available to the public; improvement to transportation & shipping by the rail system, etc.).

It's hard to keep it to 5, when there's so much more, i.e. an "Equal Rights" for women Amendment, which has been overdue for so many years!
 
Ironically, when this issue is brought before the people in states for a DEMOCRATIC VOTE, it fails.....

But who cares about Democracy right?

Normally we don't vote on peoples' basic human rights.
 
lol That isn't the way it works. FIrst you have to register to vote. By registering to vote, it would prevent me from voting anywhere other than the district I live in. We do not have open voting here. You can't just walk into every voting district and vote. They have your name on a list and when they hand you the ballot, they mark your name off the list. We also get a registration card listing the district and place we go to vote.

go back and reread my post. I said that you needed to register. But your contention is that you should not have to prove ID to register or vote. So my example is valid.
 
I want a really good red chili burro, green corn tamale and shredded beef taco.
 
I really want to see your evidence that liberal have been fraudulently registering voters for years.

did you pay any attention to the Acorn cases in 2008? Acorn only existed to create fraudulent votes. Did you follow the Franken election? in some precincts they had more votes than registered voters, can you explain that?
 
1. Ensure that all Americans have access to health care (preferably single payor).
2. Ensure that all Americans have access to education. Invest in public schools and low cost college loans available to all.
3. Let the taxes go back to Clinton levels. That will help the budget!
4. Heavily fine companies that outsource American jobs. If they need to cut their labor costs, they can automize and use their "Yankee ingenuity." But, keep the jobs here!
5. Promote the development of affordable, renewable energy (i.e. more use of geothermal, natural gas, very low cost of solar kits available to the public; improvement to transportation & shipping by the rail system, etc.).

It's hard to keep it to 5, when there's so much more, i.e. an "Equal Rights" for women Amendment, which has been overdue for so many years!

1. they already do, no one is denied healthcare in the USA
2. Talk to the teachers union. They are responsible for the degradation in public education. low interest college loans are available now
3. OK, but the amount that will raise would pay the govt bills for 8 days
4. Agree, especially GE and GM. you do know that GM is making cars in mexico and china don't you?
5. OK, sure. But let the free market find new energy sources. When something becomes profitable someone will start making it and become a rich guy---oh, forgot, you hate rich guys.

which rights do women not share equally with men?
 
Moderator's Warning:
Not specific to the 2012 Pres Election, moved to correct forum
 
No. We expect you to use your sight and hearing.

Empiricism is about the presentation of events.

That requires transferable memory, not mere observation.

Then first it's up to you to prove the burden is on the affirmative.

First, no it's not. By proving this, it's a favor. Nobody is obligated to prove anything by default.

Second, nobody may enslave anyone else's mind. If we allow people to brutally affirm themselves, that's anarchy where might makes right.
 
I really want to see your evidence that liberal have been fraudulently registering voters for years.

I can cite at least a dozen convictions on ACORN alone of voter registration fraud all across America. Cases that involved ACORN volunteers going into poor minority neighborhoods with cartons of cigarettes and lottery tickets to get people to fill out multiple registration forms.

I can cite numerous federal cases against liberal activist groups where thousands of dead people, cartoon characters, and duplicated names have been challenged by election officials on registration roles in all 50 states.

I can tell you about the lady from Maryland, a Democrat, who was busted just last week for registering AND VOTING in Maryland and Florida in 2006 and 2008, which is illegal as hell. She was also running for Congress, and was forced to withdraw over the scandal.

I can tell you about cases brought against the AFL-CIO, where the labor union plead "guilty" to voter registration fraud of hundreds of it's members.

And I can literally provide you with hundreds of stories like this one: 9/7/12: CALIFORNIA: Ricardo Lopez-Munguia: noncitizen voting
"A Mexican who was deported decades ago for drug trafficking pleaded guilty this week to living illegally in Escondido under a false identity and fraudulently voting in the 2008 U.S. presidential election, federal authorities said Friday. Ricardo Lopez-Munguia, 45, pleaded guilty Thursday to attempted entry to the U.S. after deportation, making a false claim to U.S. citizenship, and voter fraud by an illegal alien, according to a statement from the U.S. attorney's office." Mexican man admits to voter fraud, Escondido, Sept. 7, 2012.

So, it amazes me that you still "need" me to provide this information for you. Where the hell have you been? How do you breathe with your head that far in the sand?
 
1. they already do, no one is denied healthcare in the USA
2. Talk to the teachers union. They are responsible for the degradation in public education. low interest college loans are available now
3. OK, but the amount that will raise would pay the govt bills for 8 days
4. Agree, especially GE and GM. you do know that GM is making cars in mexico and china don't you?
5. OK, sure. But let the free market find new energy sources. When something becomes profitable someone will start making it and become a rich guy---oh, forgot, you hate rich guys.
1. People are denied healthcare/insurance everyday, directly and indirectly. See pre-existing conditions and poverty.
2. Evidence for your comment on teachers' unions? As for student loans: there aren't enough of them although loans are not as big a problem as they are often made out to be.
3. Source?
4. Heavily fining companies that outsource will hurt the economy and our standing with other countries. Not a good look.
5. Private business and government can work on it. There's no reason to limit it to one sector. And your nasty comment about Rosie hating rich people was unnecessary and unprovoked.
 
in a nutshell, Liberals lust after a Bureaucracy in every avenue they partake. that way, they can control the masses decisions.
 
...?

I never said you were (although left-libertarianism is close).



No you don't.

Furthermore, burden of proof is on the affirmative. If liberals want to show they're willing to live their own lives instead of parasiting a sense of self, that's their prerogative.

It's everyone else's prerogative to be skeptical.

Yes, I do have the right to be skeptical of your post. Parade it around all you want, you still can't give an example, nor citation. You have nothing to back your statement, and it's therefore invalidated.
 
Yes, I do have the right to be skeptical of your post. Parade it around all you want, you still can't give an example, nor citation. You have nothing to back your statement, and it's therefore invalidated.

My post was a negative claim. You don't have a right to a double negative which is a positive.
 
My post was a negative claim. You don't have a right to a double negative which is a positive.

I don't even.... Just give some examples if you can, if not, concede the point. It's so bloody simple.
 
in a nutshell, Liberals lust after a Bureaucracy in every avenue they partake. that way, they can control the masses decisions.

I'm just going to throw this out there...maybe there's a lot of people in this world that take a nuanced view of government not some absolute position that government should be in everything or government should be in nothing.
 
I don't even.... Just give some examples if you can, if not, concede the point. It's so bloody simple.

No, it's not simple.

People are not born with video cameras out of their eyes or microphones out of their ears.

When abusive people have their way, they exploit others who aren't recording everything around them in the first place.

Therefore, others who have valid arguments can't always prove the truth of the matter.
 
No, it's not simple.

People are not born with video cameras out of their eyes or microphones out of their ears.

When abusive people have their way, they exploit others who aren't recording everything around them in the first place.

Therefore, others who have valid arguments can't always prove the truth of the matter.

So you're saying you've seen these liberal deciding how people live their lives? :lamo
 
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