What about the stupid?

[Hard Truth]

What do you do with those that need a car to get to a job?

You see there is no one size fits all wage that will satisfy every need. Do you know what the unemployment rate is for teens?

We would be better off implementing policies promoting growth (e.g. energy independence) and retention of resources within our economy...

It is impractical to try to satisfy every need with wages alone. (health care for all would go a long way, but thats another topic)

The practical approach is to determine the minimum wage based on the real average costs for the basics in that region.

 

[Jack Hays]

I don't think anyone is saying that a factory bolt-turner should make the same as a brain surgeon... at least, no one but a handful of commie extremists.


But if the bolt-turner works hard full time, he ought to be able to afford what most Americans would consider "a decent life". A decent house, a car that isn't falling apart, electricity, health care, food, a few reasonable luxuries and little something left over to put away... in a nation this wealthy that isn't an unreasonable expectation, and was the NORM until things got so screwed up with outsourcing, illegal labor, and wages not keeping up with inflation.

It was "the norm" because after WW2 and far into the Cold War the world was unprecedentedly uncompetitive to the benefit of the U.S. In recent decades other nations and people have joined the economy as full members, and they have every right to seek the same things we do. Our world is, and will remain, a much more competitive place than the one the U.S. enjoyed after 1945. It will be more like our grandparents' world than the one we grew up in. Why? Because that is the norm.eace

 

[Goshin]

Why are we not energy independent? Why do we place environmental restrictions on our industries while allowing imports from countries that would not be allowed to operate here with no TAX?

I agree with you on those points... we need to ENCOURAGE business and industry as much as safely possible without endangering people with toxic waste. Don't mistake me for a far-left Democrat; I am not. I'm not a Republican either, they're just as bad just with different details.

My ideal solution would be to restore the industries that blue-collar workers used to make good livings at.


Ideals are great things... but we also have to look at reality and what is politically feasible.
\

 

[Goshin]

It was "the norm" because after WW2 and far into the Cold War the world was unprecedentedly uncompetitive to the benefit of the U.S. In recent decades other nations and people have joined the economy as full members, and they have every right to seek the same things we do. Our world is, and will remain, a much more competitive place than the one the U.S. enjoyed after 1945. It will be more like our grandparents' world than the one we grew up in. Why? Because that is the norm.eace

We don't HAVE to let Indonesian sweat shops compete with US industry for domestic consumerism. Imports can be taxed or restricted if need be to preserve local economy. The world can take care of itself, we need to take care of America.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I don't think anyone is saying that a factory bolt-turner should make the same as a brain surgeon... at least, no one but a handful of commie extremists.


But if the bolt-turner works hard full time, he ought to be able to afford what most Americans would consider "a decent life". A decent house, a car that isn't falling apart, electricity, health care, food, a few reasonable luxuries and little something left over to put away... in a nation this wealthy that isn't an unreasonable expectation, and was the NORM until things got so screwed up with outsourcing, illegal labor, and wages not keeping up with inflation.

You left out one other significant factor - the fact that social "safety net" programs now increase that income, sometimes well beyond what the base paycheck offers. This also takes pressure off of the employer (and thus the prices of their goods and services) and transfers it to society at large while still keeping inflation in check and keeping US products/services more competitive on the world market.

EDIT: Indirect labor costs, e.g. the cost of employer provided medical care, are also increasing as are other costs like complying with other gov't regulations, e.g. environmental and gov't reporting compliance costs.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

It is impractical to try to satisfy every need with wages alone. (health care for all would go a long way, but thats another topic)

The practical approach is to determine the minimum wage based on the real average costs for the basics in that region.

The practical approach is to educated people to develop a skill for which others are willing to pay a "living" wage, otherwise, they shouldn't expect one...

 

[Goshin]

You left out one other significant factor - the fact that social "safety net" programs now increase that income, sometimes well beyond what the base paycheck offers. This also takes pressure off of the employer (and thus the prices of their goods and services) and transfers it to society at large while still keeping inflation in check and keeping US products/services more competitive on the world market.

To some degree yes... but contrary to popular opinion a lot of blue-collar full time working folks do not qualify for much in the way of federal or state aid, and many are too proud and refuse to take it even if they can.


Y'all need to understand, my own preference is NOT for government handouts... but for more jobs and better wages!

 

[polgara]

Good evening, Polgara.:2wave:

This is not my area, but if I recall my reading correctly the problem you cite derives from our extremely low interest rates. Those low interest rates cause the dollar to drop in value relative to other currencies, and create losses for countries conducting their trade in dollars. Their action is essentially a protest against what they see as an unfairly cheap dollar.:twocents:

Good evening, Jack. :2wave:

:agree: There are countries that would like to see their currencies reign supreme, and that is not a surprise to most. It does seem that our very low interest rates play into their agenda. It's troubling to see, because climbing interest rates will harm the people of this country in so many ways, since we are accustomed to making the purchases we need. I believe that housing is already stalling, as an example., and food purchasing grows more expensive by the month. With a large percentage of people only holding part-time jobs when they were used to full-time work, it seems that many must feel like they are in the middle of a giant global squeeze!

 

[AlabamaPaul]

I agree with you on those points... we need to ENCOURAGE business and industry as much as safely possible without endangering people with toxic waste. Don't mistake me for a far-left Democrat; I am not. I'm not a Republican either, they're just as bad just with different details.

My ideal solution would be to restore the industries that blue-collar workers used to make good livings at.


Ideals are great things... but we also have to look at reality and what is politically feasible.
\

You may never have seen me post this, but I support fair trade, not free trade, given the restrictions businesses in this country are forced to abide by...

 

[Jack Hays]

We don't HAVE to let Indonesian sweat shops compete with US industry for domestic consumerism. Imports can be taxed or restricted if need be to preserve local economy. The world can take care of itself, we need to take care of America.

No country has ever tariffed its way to prosperity. Protection of high cost domestic producers is really a tax levied on consumers. What you advocate seems attractive, but it's really the road to poverty.eace

 

[Goshin]

The practical approach is to educated people to develop a skill for which others are willing to pay a "living" wage, otherwise, they shouldn't expect one...

These days that pretty much takes a 4 yr degree in most cases.


As the OP points out, there are a good many people who just don't have the mentality to achieve a degree.


Shall they starve or live in abject poverty then? Even if they work their butts off 60 hours a week running a forklift at the warehouse where your stuff comes from, so you can buy the products you want?


Muzzle not the ox that treadeth out the grain.

 

[Jack Hays]

Good evening, Jack. :2wave:

:agree: There are countries that would like to see their currencies reign supreme, and that is not a surprise to most. It does seem that our very low interest rates play into their agenda. It's troubling to see, because climbing interest rates will harm the people of this country in so many ways, since we are accustomed to making the purchases we need. I believe that housing is already stalling, as an example., and food purchasing grows more expensive by the month. With a large percentage of people only holding part-time jobs when they were used to full-time work, it seems that many must feel like they are in the middle of a giant global squeeze!

Now you know why I'm not an economist.

 

[ttwtt78640]

To some degree yes... but contrary to popular opinion a lot of blue-collar full time working folks do not qualify for much in the way of federal or state aid, and many are too proud and refuse to take it even if they can.


Y'all need to understand, my own preference is NOT for government handouts... but for more jobs and better wages!

Mine as well, but I see the gov't as part of the problem especially with excessive regulation and unfunded mandates being placed on employers. Please see the edit to my prior post.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

These days that pretty much takes a 4 yr degree in most cases.


As the OP points out, there are a good many people who just don't have the mentality to achieve a degree.


Shall they starve or live in abject poverty then? Even if they work their butts off 60 hours a week running a forklift at the warehouse where your stuff comes from, so you can buy the products you want?


Muzzle not the ox that treadeth out the grain.

One doesn't need a degree. They simply need to provide a service another is willing to purchase....

 

[Goshin]

Mine as well, but I see the gov't as part of the problem especially with excessive regulation and unfunded mandates being placed on employers. Please see the edit to my prior post.

yes, and corporate welfare and laws that benefit the big corps and squeeze out the family biz, and so on. Agreed.


OTOH we DO need sufficient regulation to keep factories from polluting groundwater and killing people... which happened recently about 3-5 miles from where I sit, downstream of a textile mill that was dumping toxins in the river.

We need balance.

 

[Goshin]

One doesn't need a degree. They simply need to provide a service another is willing to purchase....

You didn't finish. "...provide a service another is willing to purchase... at a price that will allow them a decent lifestyle."


People are short-sighted and don't want to pay blue-collar labor a living wage.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

You didn't finish. "...provide a service another is willing to purchase... at a price that will allow them a decent lifestyle."


People are short-sighted and don't want to pay blue-collar labor a living wage.

A living wage is a euphemism as it differs depending on one's wants. I might be able to live comfortably on a wage that you might consider unacceptable. Do we need cable and cell phones? Do we need a private home versus a shared apartment? There is no one size fit all where this is concerned...

 

[Goshin]

A living wage is a euphemism as it differs depending on one's wants. I might be able to live comfortably on a wage that you might consider unacceptable. Do we need cable and cell phones? Do we need a private home versus a shared apartment? There is no one size fit all where this is concerned...

The American dream is a house and a two car garage, the necessities of life and a little something left over to put away after the bills are paid. It isn't rocket science, we're not talking about the lap of luxury here just a decent lifestyle where you aren't living hand-to-mouth and won't get wiped out from an unexpected trip to the hospital.

 

[Captain Adverse]

You didn't finish. "...provide a service another is willing to purchase... at a price that will allow them a decent lifestyle."


People are short-sighted and don't want to pay blue-collar labor a living wage.

Correct, they'd rather build unsafe, polluting factories overseas and pay $0.20/hr for a 12 to 15 hour work day, each shift. Then charge the same old price (or more) for goods that used to be made in the USA.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

The American dream is a house and a two car garage, the necessities of life and a little something left over to put away after the bills are paid. It isn't rocket science, we're not talking about the lap of luxury here just a decent lifestyle where you aren't living hand-to-mouth and won't get wiped out from an unexpected trip to the hospital.

I'm sorry, but IMV, not everyone is willing to put forth the effort to achieve what you think is a necessity...

BTW, I lived hand to mouth while going to college. Our treat was Pizza Hut once a month. Other than that we did mostly rice and beans with an occasional PB&J thrown in...

 

[polgara]

Now you know why I'm not an economist.

:thumbs:

:lamo

 

[Goshin]

I'm sorry, but IMV, not everyone is willing to put forth the effort to achieve what you think is a necessity...

BTW, I lived hand to mouth while going to college. Our treat was Pizza Hut once a month. Other than that we did mostly rice and beans with an occasional PB&J thrown in...

Living on PBandJ and rice and beans for a short time while in college and you're young and healthy is one thing.

Try it for a lifetime and feed it to your kids and see if you're still so blasé about it.

 

[Jack Hays]

Correct, they'd rather build unsafe, polluting factories overseas and pay $0.20/hr for a 12 to 15 hour work day, each shift. Then charge the same old price (or more) for goods that used to be made in the USA.

Not exactly. The prices of consumer electronics, for example, are always falling.eace

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Living on PBandJ and rice and beans for a short time while in college and you're young and healthy is one thing.

Try it for a lifetime and feed it to your kids and see if you're still so blasé about it.

I'm not balse about anything; I'm trying to get across that this is your life, and you can make of it what you're willing to put forth in effort...

 

[Captain Adverse]

Not exactly. The prices of consumer electronics, for example, are always falling.eace

Do I NEED consumer "electronics?" I only buy a TV every 6 to 10 years, I don't need all sorts of other electronics either. People buy one then expect it to last until it breaks. That's one reason prices are falling.

The other reason is that people have to spend more money on necessities, like rent, transportation, clothes and food. If the prices of electronics weren't low enough only the upper classes could afford them. Not much profit up there either unless they replace again every six months. LOL

That's one reason I am so annoyed by this "basket of goods" CPI crap. Who cares if electronics and "snack foods" are cheaper when most necessities are not?