What about the stupid?

[Jack Hays]

If you think that it is OK to pay someone a wage that does not support their basic needs because that is all they can command in the marketplace, that is implying that the wage they receive is what they deserve because you apparently believe in the "wisdom of the marketplace." Unless, you support the current practice of the government subsidizing the working poor with food stamps etc., which suggests that you believe that the working poor do deserve more than their employer pays them, and believe it is the taxpayer's duty to provide for their needs, even though they are employed.

Again, no one is paid what he/she "deserves." If that were the case excellent teachers would earn more than NFL quarterbacks. The marketplace does not understand "deserves." We can therefore decide to mitigate marketplace effects. We do that via charity, and food stamps would be an example. The decision to provide charity is, however, wholly at the option of the giver; the receiver has no claim.eace

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Well bud, we are not there, nor are we likely to actually do that anytime soon from the look of it.


Remember where I said "in a perfect(ish) world"? Well, you're trying to pretend it is when it isn't.


We have to deal with the reality on the ground, which is illegal labor, outsourcing of entire industries that used to provide good livings to tens of millions of Americans, and employers that wield huge economic and political power with which to beat down the common working man.

Reality, in the political sense, is determined through our vote, and outsourcing is the fault of the desire of the US consumer for seeking the best value for their dollar earned, or given, as the case might be...

I won't vote for anyone who even thinks of legalizing those who came here unlawfully...

 

[Mason66]

The cost of basic needs varies by region. People with medical problems have more needs, but leaving aside dependents and medical issues, the needs of each individual is roughly equivalent-food, shelter, clothing and transportation.

OK So if mínimum wage is enough to pay for a rented room and food to eat plus clothing (transportation is free - walking) is that enough for you?

If that person decides to buy a 4 bedroom house, is it your opinión that his pay should be raised because he wants to live in a bigger place?

 

[AlabamaPaul]

The cost of basic needs varies by region. People with medical problems have more needs, but leaving aside dependents and medical issues, the needs of each individual is roughly equivalent-food, shelter, clothing and transportation.

So, if you're a teenager living at home, what is your living wage?

 

[ttwtt78640]

So, if you're a teenager living at home, what is your living wage?

Enough to allow you save up some cash so that you can get out on your own very, very soon.

 

[polgara]

No, there is no country that has rejected the US dollar as payment for trade...

:agree: that the dollar has not been outright rejected. It's too early for that, IMO, because no one is certain about what is currently going on in the rest of the world. In fact, we may enjoy a flood of money making its way to our Country in the near term, because the money is fleeing other countries. Once again, time will tell. :mrgreen:

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Enough to allow you save up some cash so that you can get out on your own very, very soon.

You're not helping here... eace

 

[tech30528]

Your premise is flawed. Employers do not pay according to what anyone "deserves". Pay rates are linked to productivity. If a person can not produce the employer should be under no obligation to pay them above their skill level.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

:agree: that the dollar has not been outright rejected. It's too early for that, IMO, because no one is certain about what is currently going on in the rest of the world. In fact, we may enjoy a flood of money making its way to our Country in the near term, because the money is fleeing other countries. Once again, time will tell. :mrgreen:

Money flows to where there is productive output valued by others...

 

[Mason66]

Enough to allow you save up some cash so that you can get out on your own very, very soon.

Was that sarcastic? It is so hard to tell anymore.

 

[Misterveritis]

I have come across many people on this forum and elsewhere opposed to all minimum wage laws, and others opposed to a federal minimum wage low.

Also, minimum wage is not a living wage in many parts of the country and many have argued against any increases.

I'm not assuming that all of the less intelligent will never get beyond a minimum wage job, but it seems a near certainty that some of them never will.

I oppose the minimum wage laws. It reduces the number of entry level jobs. It helps to trap a permanent underclass for the democratic party to prey on.

 

[Hard Truth]

OK So if mínimum wage is enough to pay for a rented room and food to eat plus clothing (transportation is free - walking) is that enough for you?

If that person decides to buy a 4 bedroom house, is it your opinión that his pay should be raised because he wants to live in a bigger place?

AlabamaPaul: "So, if you're a teenager living at home, what is your living wage?"

I am not advocating that employers be required to pay wages to a worker based on that worker's particular needs. Rather, I think the minimum wage for a region should be enough to afford the basics such as a rented room and food to eat plus clothing and bus fare.

 

[Misterveritis]

If unions are "breaking companies," it's only because the companies are letting them.

Public sector unions, in cahoots with politicians are breaking the nation.

 

[Misterveritis]

When a union says sign on the dotted line or we strike, companies have little choice. It's like someone kidnapping your kid and saying pay the ransom or the kid dies.

Unions are like cockroaches. They are pretty darned hard to be rid of without fumigating the entire edifice.

 

[Goshin]

Reality, in the political sense, is determined through our vote, and outsourcing is the fault of the desire of the US consumer for seeking the best value for their dollar earned, or given, as the case might be...

I won't vote for anyone who even thinks of legalizing those who came here unlawfully...

Outsourcing takes place because it is allowed to take place, and because they are allowed to re-import the goods at low or no tariff and make huge profits in the consumer market.

Regrettably the voter is often short-sighted in these things, and fails to realize the lifeblood work of his country is running downhill until it is HIS job that gets outsourced to India or Indonesia.


Need to think about what you're going to do about all those people who once earned a decent living, who are now either out of work or desperately under-employed, too damn old to go back to college or just not mentally suited to it, who are going to be looking for a dry place to sleep and something to eat if you do away with that government "safety net".

Because they might be coming to see YOU if they get hungry enough, and they may not take no for an answer. They're not going to just conveniently lay down in the cold and die and get out of your way, so you can enjoy having illegal Mexicans do your yard work for $2 a day.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

AlabamaPaul: "So, if you're a teenager living at home, what is your living wage?"

I am not advocating that employers be required to pay wages to a worker based on that worker's particular needs. Rather, I think the minimum wage for a region should be enough to afford the basics such as a rented room and food to eat plus clothing and bus fare.

What do you do with those that need a car to get to a job?

You see there is no one size fits all wage that will satisfy every need. Do you know what the unemployment rate is for teens?

We would be better off implementing policies promoting growth (e.g. energy independence) and retention of resources within our economy...

 

[Goshin]

What do you do with those that need a car to get to a job?

You see there is no one size fits all wage that will satisfy every need. Do you know what the unemployment rate is for teens?

We would be better off implementing policies promoting growth (e.g. energy independence) and retention of resources within our economy...

We need to start that retention with keeping any more industries from going overseas...

 

[ttwtt78640]

Was that sarcastic? It is so hard to tell anymore.

Not entirely. Many seem to think that one's wages should not be based on the market value of their efforts (their replacement cost, if you will) but based on what they "need" to live the lifestyle that they "should" be able to live. That is a very common definition of the "living wage", and the current basis for the benefit levels of most social "safety net" programs.

 

[Goshin]

Not entirely. Many seem to think that ones wages should not be based on the market value of their efforts (their replacement cost, if you will) but based on what they "need" to live the lifestyle that they "should" be able to live. That is a very common definition of the "living wage", and the current basis for the benefit leveels of most social "safety net" programs.

I don't think anyone is saying that a factory bolt-turner should make the same as a brain surgeon... at least, no one but a handful of commie extremists.


But if the bolt-turner works hard full time, he ought to be able to afford what most Americans would consider "a decent life". A decent house, a car that isn't falling apart, electricity, health care, food, a few reasonable luxuries and little something left over to put away... in a nation this wealthy that isn't an unreasonable expectation, and was the NORM until things got so screwed up with outsourcing, illegal labor, and wages not keeping up with inflation.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Outsourcing takes place because it is allowed to take place, and because they are allowed to re-import the goods at low or no tariff and make huge profits in the consumer market.

Regrettably the voter is often short-sighted in these things, and fails to realize the lifeblood work of his country is running downhill until it is HIS job that gets outsourced to India or Indonesia.


Need to think about what you're going to do about all those people who once earned a decent living, who are now either out of work or desperately under-employed, too damn old to go back to college or just not mentally suited to it, who are going to be looking for a dry place to sleep and something to eat if you do away with that government "safety net".

Because they might be coming to see YOU if they get hungry enough, and they may not take no for an answer. They're not going to just conveniently lay down in the cold and die and get out of your way, so you can enjoy having illegal Mexicans do your yard work for $2 a day.

Sam Walton started Walmart by promoting Made in the USA, but once it became apparent consumers wanted price over origin, the model changed. We could sit in a bar and lament over this until the after hours bars opened, but it is what it is. We need to understand this in order to have any hope of changing it...

I am my brother's keeper; I'm not anyone else's keeper. As I have posted previously, we are all the result of the decisions made through our lives...

 

[a351]

Back in the day [before Big Gov] if you didn't work, you didn't eat. That was great incentive.

It proved effective in an agrarian economy where employment and food were heavily intertwined. There's also little reason to believe that a lack of intervention did not in fact result in widespread mal-nourishment and in some cases starvation. We've evolved quite a bit since then in both economic and social terms.

 

[Hard Truth]

Your premise is flawed. Employers do not pay according to what anyone "deserves". Pay rates are linked to productivity. If a person can not produce the employer should be under no obligation to pay them above their skill level.

You apparently believe that workers "deserve" the pay they get based on their skill level and productivity alone. My position that if that salary isn't enough for a full time worker to afford basic food, shelter, clothing and transportation, then the worker deserves more money from the employer. Underpaying an employee is immoral exploitation.

 

[Goshin]

Sam Walton started Walmart by promoting Made in the USA, but once it became apparent consumers wanted price over origin, the model changed. We could sit in a bar and lament over this until the after hours bars opened, but it is what it is. We need to understand this in order to have any hope of changing it...

I am my brother's keeper; I'm not anyone else's keeper. As I have posted previously, we are all the result of the decisions made through our lives...

And if the consumers wanted cheap Thai prostitutes, we should import them? If consumers wanted filet of human, does that make it moral?

I used to be an extreme free-market type; that changed the day I realized the market is not inherently moral or just, not at all.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

We need to start that retention with keeping any more industries from going overseas...

Why are we not energy independent? Why do we place environmental restrictions on our industries while allowing imports from countries that would not be allowed to operate here with no TAX?

 

[APACHERAT]

Good evening, Polgara.:2wave:

This is not my area, but if I recall my reading correctly the problem you cite derives from our extremely low interest rates. Those low interest rates cause the dollar to drop in value relative to other currencies, and create losses for countries conducting their trade in dollars. Their action is essentially a protest against what they see as an unfairly cheap dollar.:twocents:

When Congress spends money it doesn't have the dollar drops in value.

When the Feds print money with nothing to back it up, the dollar drops in value.

When gold increases in price, it represents the drop in the value of the dollar.

The greenback today is nothing but an IOU as in trust in god that it has some value.

Go back to the gold standard and Congress will not be spending money it doesn't have.

The Feds wouldn't be printing money like it has over the past four years to prop up the Obama economy because the dollar would be backed up by gold. The more greenbacks printed, the fall in the value of the dollar.

But then again, this isn't my area of specialty.

The current laws need to be changed so gold can be used as legal tender.