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We must leave Iraq

Is it simply anger that you hadn't the ability to see beyond the WMD focus that was presented to you? Your statement above makes absolutely no sense.

It certainly makes as much sense as your statement: "Those that objected to the removal of Hussein's regime on grounds of state soveriegnty (UN law) were the moral descendants of those who looked away from Hitler's crimes"

I believe Hitler was on a mission to make all of Europe a German country as he executed plans to eliminate all Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, etc. I might have missed it, but I didn't see any Muslim burning ovens or an advance of American troops across the landscape of the Middle East. How little respect you have for your country that you could oblige our critics with such irresponsibility.

That was one of Hitler's missions, though that mission was not widely known by the West in 1938-39. But that is not what I am talking about. Hitler was also on a mission of conquest. The Germans claimed their invasion of Poland a war of liberation to liberate Germans living within the new Poland borders (which encompassed lands that had been German/Prussian for centuries) and because Poland represented a threat to Germany, claiming Polish soldiers had fired on German troops. Like some here have argued about Iraq, the Germans argued that Poland was a mistake of history and that no Polish state could be feasible, and that it should be split up.

Maybe you can defend the Germans actions. I call it pretext. And regardless of whether they believed the government of Poland was improper or not, Germany had no legitimate justification to invade Poland.

If you are arguing that those who object to the Iraq war are "decendents" of those who tried to stop WWII, it is certainly fair IMO to call those who defend the pretextual Iraq invasion as decendants of the Nazi Germans.

My statement made perfect sense. What is the difference between an individual who would turn their backs on Hitler's murderous machine and Saddam's murderous machine?

I will again spell out the difference for you, as plainly as I can.

The folks who objected to war with Germany where trying to avoid another world war. It was not because they felt there was no justification for a military response for Germany's actions.

The folks who objected to starting the war with Iraq object because there was no legitimate justification for the US to attack that country.

What is the difference between those who supported the Nazi's pretext for starting a war, and those who support the Bush Administration's pretext for starting a war?
 
I will again spell out the difference for you, as plainly as I can.

Spell better. You still aren't making sense.

The folks who objected to war with Germany where trying to avoid another world war. It was not because they felt there was no justification for a military response for Germany's actions.

So they felt justification for a military response, but were afraid of involving themselves in what was already a world war? So instead they made the historical common mistake of waiting until the problem grew into a monster which took more lives? Sounds like cowardice to me. It also show how little regard they had for human suffering.

The folks who objected to starting the war with Iraq object because there was no legitimate justification for the US to attack that country.

Human suffering isn't legitimate? Is this what passes as "Liberalism" these days? But let me guess..."if" Bush made the human suffering issue a greater focus you would have been OK with it.



What is the difference between those who supported the Nazi's pretext for starting a war, and those who support the Bush Administration's pretext for starting a war?

Intent. After the American military finishes off the Muslim population of the Middle East through gas, ovens, and bullet, I'll answer your stupid question. Your implications don't deserve any respect.
 
Spell better. You still aren't making sense.
So they felt justification for a military response, but were afraid of involving themselves in what was already a world war?

Yes. The objection to war with Germany was not on the grounds that it was not justified.

So instead they made the historical common mistake of waiting until the problem grew into a monster which took more lives?

It is not always a mistake. Waiting prevented global thermonuclear war during the Cold war, which to me at least was the preferred outcome.

Sounds like cowardice to me. It also show how little regard they had for human suffering.

I personally can't blame nations that lost millions in WWI from trying everything reasonable to prevent WWII. Given the horrific loss in WWII, their effort was justified. Plus they were buying time to rearm.

Human suffering isn't legitimate? Is this what passes as "Liberalism" these days? But let me guess..."if" Bush made the human suffering issue a greater focus you would have been OK with it.

No, I still would not have been OK with it. I concede this is my weak point, however. I agree there can be some level of human suffering that justifies military intervention, even though most of the rest of the world doesn't agree with it. The rare exception. Human suffering per se isn't legitimate for one nation to decide it can attack another, and isn't justified when the consequences of military attack causes far more death, devastation and human suffering than is occurring.

In Iraq in 2003, the scale of human suffering certainly did not justify an attack by the US.

Originally Posted by Iriemon
What is the difference between those who supported the Nazi's pretext for starting a war, and those who support the Bush Administration's pretext for starting a war?

Intent. After the American military finishes off the Muslim population of the Middle East through gas, ovens, and bullet, I'll answer your stupid question. Your implications don't deserve any respect.

About the same respect yours did.
 
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Originally posted by GySgt:
Your implications don't deserve any respect.
You don't get it, until you give it!
 
Originally posted by WI Crippler
1.5 million dead, when the UN just came out and said 34,000 died last year. I guess that means we have really slowed down and the war is almost over.
Don't kill the messenger!
 
So they felt justification for a military response, but were afraid of involving themselves in what was already a world war? So instead they made the historical common mistake of waiting until the problem grew into a monster which took more lives? Sounds like cowardice to me. It also show how little regard they had for human suffering.

I just can't get passed the fact that you keep thinking the US is actually doing everyone a favor, that the US has no ulterior motives. You think the US was trying to save lives? That the US was battling a monster on behalf of the people of Europe? Nothing could be further from the truth.

First of all, the US didn't get involved in a lot of internantional politics until the threat of Communism arose (which of course is after WW2), a little bit before Truman first took office.

Before that, the US operated under the Monroe Doctrine. In essence, the US didn't care for international politics, they made special efforts to aviod it. In other words, they couldn't have careless whether there were mass murderings going on in Europe or anywhere else for that matter. You fail to comprehend the current mind-set of Americans at the time, which I think is because of your preconcieved notion that the US is, again, altruistic in nature. Again, nothing could be further from the truth.

We see a clear opposite stance on foreign policy when Truman starts all these Anti-Communist tactics to battle the Soviet Union, and that's when the US gets intricately involved in foreign politics. Before that, it was to the minimal. Most of the US concerns were at home, within the country itself, not abroad.

After all this discussion with you, the main thing that concerns me most about your logic is that you keep thinking the US has a right to dictate to the world. That we have done so much for the world. Protected it from monsters, etc, etc. That it justifies us as the leader of the world. That we have proven, time and again, that we are the saviors of the world.

From all your posts, all I'm hearing are excuses and justifications for ethnic cleansing. Based on your arguments that all of these problems, that are self-prescribed, are spawned from it's religion and culture, which leads you to believe that the answer is to clean them out. In other words ethnic cleansing.

And I disagree, as I've pointed out a number of times, the problem does not originate from it's religion. It originated from the circumstances the ME was in. That it was being attacked on all sides because of its economic wealth in oil, and i'm not talking about US invasion, I'm talking about much ealier in the beginning of the 20th century and late 19th century. Even if we go thru with ethnic cleansing, it will not do any good. The circumstances still have not changed at all. The oil, which is the motivation for other countries to attack the ME, is still there. This will again lead to the pattern that started to begin with: a military state of oppression. Why? because its being attacked, and it is defending itself.

You think that by eliminating the "Radical Islamists" will be the cure, but its not. The problem does not originate from there. The problem stems from its economic situation. Until we can fix that, or change that, we will still have the same problem, no matter how much ethnic cleansing we do.
 
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Originally posted by GySgt:
.......Gee, Billo, what blogger did you borrow this from? There's just no end to your desperation is there? Why just a million and a half Billo? Let's pretend that our military lined up and slaughtered a trillion Iraqis (I'm sure that numbers just around the corner). Does this satisfy your deperation?

Let me get this straight. After parading around 150,000 deaths a year ago and being shown more accurate reports, you graduated to the Lancet Report. After boasting the concrete numbers of 650,000 from the honorable and trustworthy Lancet report, you were shown numbers from the UN (which you have a love affair for), the Iraqi government, and two other "independent" sources that showed a much lower number after doing the math. Your reply was to admit that "no can no the numbers." Your answer to this now is to come back with a million and a half? This Iraqi experiment is hard enough without the added drama and integrity lacking exxagerations.

Quite the trend.


By the way...your link doesn't work. But if it's what I think it is, this percentage very much involves people that have left the country. Oops. Did I spoil your party?
The link does work, I just tried it a minute ago. Your pretty good at dis-information. But I'm not buying your fatally flawed propaganda. It is quite the analogy that the linked worked, yet you still couldn't see it. You only see what you want to see, don't you?

I post a report of the number of dead and you call that a "parade". I think if you want to know what's going on in Iraq, you ask an Iraqi. You call that "desperation". And everytime you see a post that isn't goose-stepping to your agenda, you get all condescending and indignant, then try to make it seem like your the only one who has things figured out.

Well, practically the entire world is against us for going into Iraq. Which leads me to believe that this many people cannot be wrong. However, you seem to think they can. So, now we have you knowing more about things than everyone else in the world. Your greatness is astounding!

What's it's like being Jesus?
 
Originally posted by oldreliable67:
Your link doesn't say "dead". It says "lost". Your link doesn't say how many wounded or seeking refuge in another country, it says "lost". Even if your link specified "dead" instead of "lost", your link is self-serving rhetoric at its best. Its only purpose is encourage people quick to criticize US actions in Iraq - like you, Billo. The author apparently succeeded.
Could you show GySgt how to link to the link. He said it was bad in the post right above yours. So it was kind of perfect you came in talking about the information from the link right after the post that said that very link was bad! There is a God after all.

That link is the biggest Iraqi media outlet in the country. I wouldn't mind people saying it is propaganda and bullshit if they would at least do a little research and find some sources that have evidence to the contrary. But to just react that way to everything you don't like to hear, well TOT does that better than anyone.

The truth is, nobody knows how many. It is also the truth that Iraq is in a civil war. It is also true they would not be in a civil war right now if we hadn't attacked. So, all these deaths (no matter what number you give) are the result of our invasion. It doesn't matter if it is sectarian violence or US military operations, we are responsible for creating that situation.

I have to stop now, or I will start getting very, very, angry...
 
I just can't get passed the fact that you keep thinking the US is actually doing everyone a favor, that the US has no ulterior motives.

This is a fact to you? I've stated that America never has ulterior motives? You have managed to get from my thousands of posts that I believe America is perfect and merely acts on humanity's behalf? You have missed the countless posts where I have remarked on the oil aspects, the trades protections, and corporate greed? Of course their are ulterior motives. All nations have interests and none have "friends." There is only a mutual agreement of interests between allies. I guess this means that human suffering can't be a mutual interests between nations...right?

Or have you merely taken my posts that state that America performs good deeds everyday in the absence of the rest of the world as being the whole story? Perhaps you should read more of what I post and less searching for an argument.

But thanks for the WWII history lesson. Scan my posts. I've written the same elsewhere enough times.

After all this discussion with you, the main thing that concerns me most about your logic is that you keep thinking the US has a right to dictate to the world. That we have done so much for the world. Protected it from monsters, etc, etc. That it justifies us as the leader of the world. That we have proven, time and again, that we are the saviors of the world.


Haha. I think what should concern you is that the right the world freely gave us over the last fifty years has escaped you. You think this is my logic? This isn't fantasy. This is life. And through sweat, blood, and treasure, America has earned the right to referreee the world we live in. Being dragged into two world wars while attempting to isolate ourselves from it brought the world nothing but darkness. Of course, if you prefer German Naziism, Japanese Imperialism, Soviet Communism, or Islamic fundamentalism to be the referree. Last I checked, we were the only ones that have the basic human rights of others in mind while we practice our "evil" deeds.
 
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The truth is, nobody knows how many.


:roll:

Yet, you love your drama produced in concrete. Screw this. I've wasted enough tax payer dollars for one day. I'm going home.
 
Could you show GySgt how to link to the link. He said it was bad in the post right above yours. So it was kind of perfect you came in talking about the information from the link right after the post that said that very link was bad! There is a God after all.

It didn't work the first time I tried it either. Waited a couple of mins then tried it again and it worked. ???

That link is the biggest Iraqi media outlet in the country. I wouldn't mind people saying it is propaganda and bullshit if they would at least do a little research and find some sources that have evidence to the contrary. But to just react that way to everything you don't like to hear, well TOT does that better than anyone.

The truth is, nobody knows how many. It is also the truth that Iraq is in a civil war. It is also true they would not be in a civil war right now if we hadn't attacked. So, all these deaths (no matter what number you give) are the result of our invasion. It doesn't matter if it is sectarian violence or US military operations, we are responsible for creating that situation.

You are absolutely right: nobody knows how many. My main point is the the author referred to "lost" and almost everyone, including you, immediately translated that into "dead". Big assumption, seems to me. Secondary point was/is the nature of the publication: even a "big" media outlet in Iraq doesn't mean a lot when publishing opinions. I've read stuff there from time to time and frankly, I prefer Iraq The Model for a much, much better view from real life.

I have to stop now, or I will start getting very, very, angry...

Don't go away mad, just go away? Just kidding...:lol:

There is always a need, maybe even a higher purpose, for people - like you - who will get morally outraged at thing/events/people whom they feel deserve it. As trying as you can sometimes be, Billo, be confident that you still have a higher purpose in life! ...even if it is merely annoying Gunny and Teacher! :lol:
 
You acknowledge that the Iraqi people were sufferring under Saddam's dictatorship, but what about Zenawi? He was also a brutal dictator who slaughtered his own people who protested against him. Why did the US help Zenawi? Surely the US realize how much the Ethiopians was oppressed if they realized that the Iraqis was oppressed.

I continually hear why we are hypocrites for choosing to depose Saddam at the same time we protect out interests. So what if they coincide? I have yet to be told why this is invalid.

We went to Mogadishu before, why do you dismiss that? We had no interest there other than to help and we got a pie tossed in our face that emboldened the terrorists that we are facing now.
 
Originally posted by GySgt:
Yet, you love your drama produced in concrete. Screw this. I've wasted enough tax payer dollars for one day. I'm going home.
That is one of my favorite songs of Woodstock.

If you got the time, check out Post #18.
 
LightDemon
Here's a very good history lesson:
The US is known for staying out of wars, this is where the US makes a lot of profits. That is because we are also known for selling products to BOTH sides of a war. We see this in the Napoleonic wars, we see this is WW2 before we became Allies, and of course, we see this in the Iraq-Iran war.

Here's a very good history lesson, and one that is actually accurate to boot: :)

- Colonial wars (1620–1774)
- - - American Revolution(1775–1783)
- Early national period (1783–1815) era
- Northwest Indian War
- Quasi-War or the Undeclared War with France
- Barbary Wars
- Tecumseh's War
- Creek War
- Peoria War
- - - War of 1812
- Continental expansion (1816–1860)
- Seminole Wars
- Black Hawk War
- - - Mexican-American War
- Utah War
- - - American Civil War (1861–1865)
- Post-Civil War era (1865–1917) era
- Indian Wars (1865–1890)
- - Spanish-American War (1898)
- Philippine-American War (1899-1913)
- Banana Wars
- The Boxer Rebellion
- - - World War I(1917-1918)
- Russian Revolution
- - - World War II(1941-1945)
- - - Cold War (1945–1991) era
- Postwar Military Reorganization (1947) era
- - - Korean War
- Lebanon crisis of 1958
- Bay of Pigs Invasion
- Dominican Intervention
- - - Vietnam War
- Tehran hostage rescue
- Grenada
- Beirut
- Panama
- Post-Cold War era (1991–2001) era
- - - Gulf War
- - - Somalia
- Yugoslavia
- - - War on Terrorism (2001–present)
- - - Afghanistan
- Philippines
- Liberia
- - - Iraq

So...do you want to rethink that statement, or are you just going to try and justify it? ;)
 
Bodisatva, you should read some of of Carl Becker's work, and maybe then you would realize how ethnocentric that time line is.

You forgot to mention one of the most important wars that jump started the Industrial Revolution: The Napoleanic Wars; The French Revolution.

During this time, the US was the largest producer in wheat and grain, which was the main supply of BOTH Britain and France's food supply.

This was the case with WW2 as well. And also, I would hardly count WW2 as a war the US was involved in, I mean they only entered the war at the very end. I mean you can't just put a cherry on top of a cake and claim credit for baking a cake ;)

As for history lessons, try something that is not so ethnocentric. A good way to get a good grasp of a country's history is by looking at it from the outside, not inside.
 
Dictator = 1. a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession. dictator - Definitions from Dictionary.com

House of Saud: The royal family of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The royal family today is made up of an estimated 25,000 members, of whom around 200 are princes wielding influence. In the event that if either the sitting king or the crown prince were deemed unfit to rule, a five-member transitory council, appointed by the Council, would be empowered to run state affairs for a maximum of one week, before naming a successor. This is a monarchy, not a dictatorship.

Pakistan: Pakistan's democracy is being held together by the military. This may be repugnant to us in the west, but the Pakistani military only serves to maintain structure away from the Radical feuding wishes of the tribes. In the October 2002 general elections, the Pakistan Muslim League won a plurality of National Assembly seats with the second-largest group being the Pakistan People's Party Parliamentarians, a sub-party of the PPP. Zafarullah Khan Jamali of emerged as Prime Minister but resigned on 26 June 2004 and was replaced by leader Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain as interim Prime Minister. On 28 August 2004 the National Assembly voted 191 to 151 to elect the Finance Minister and former Citibank Vice President Shaukat Aziz as Prime Minister. Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal, a coalition of Islamic religious parties, won elections in North-West Frontier Province, and increased their representation in the National Assembly. Not a dictatorship.


You see, it doesn't matter hard you wish to twist reality, it is what it is.

Well so are you just then against what you define as dicaturships, that is fine with countries oppresing the people so long as they not are under dicatorial rule? Personally I 'm against all non democratic countries your source have a pretty good example of what a democratic country is "government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system"

Even if I would like to aid respect to human right.

Because I don't think people under oppression care very much if there countries techicly are ruled by a dictator, a aristocracy or by the military. If you look at SaudArabia it's pretty clear that they live under oppression and I don't think it very mather that it is a aristocracy instead of a dictatorship. Also I checked up Pakistan yes you could techinicly say that it's a weak democracy but for me personally I think that country is way of from being a democratic country:

Pakistan: Bush Should Press Musharraf to End Military Rule (Human Rights Watch, 20-9-2006)

Pakistan: Human rights ignored in the "war on terror" - Amnesty International


So again...if you are going to parade around America's affair with dictators as a current occurrence, at least be able to back up your point. Name them? Of course then we would get into the current governments that serve their people versus the rebel forces that merely strive for power.


Well I think SaudArabia and Pakistan backed up my point also I think haing troops in 120 countries suggest that it's not just about protecting embessys or democracy. That would USA militart boast about there troops in other countries if they just hangedaround in embassys. But this is also intersting about USA military support:

Changes to U.S. Military Assistance After September 11 (Human Rights Watch Report, February 2002)
 
This was the case with WW2 as well. And also, I would hardly count WW2 as a war the US was involved in, I mean they only entered the war at the very end. I mean you can't just put a cherry on top of a cake and claim credit for baking a cake ;)

Well thats unfair. You really think the Britans and the French were on the cusp of pushing back the german invaders by themselves?? I don't think so.
 
LightDemon said:
I would hardly count WW2 as a war the US was involved in, I mean they only entered the war at the very end. I mean you can't just put a cherry on top of a cake and claim credit for baking a cake

Thats not the stupidest thing I've ever read, but its got to be pretty darned close to it.
 
Thats not the stupidest thing I've ever read, but its got to be pretty darned close to it.

Agree - Either fundamental lack of knowledge of history or intentional misrepresentation.
 
Well I think SaudArabia and Pakistan backed up my point also I think haing troops in 120 countries suggest that it's not just about protecting embessys or democracy. That would USA militart boast about there troops in other countries if they just hangedaround in embassys. But this is also intersting about USA military support:

Changes to U.S. Military Assistance After September 11 (Human Rights Watch Report, February 2002)

Ummm....just because I didn't state our activities here and there it doesn't mean I refused there existence. Did I say our troop presence globally was just about embassy duty? "oldreliable" has a nice reply to your implications that states it just right. And Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are what I gave you. Have I ever denied America's sins? You have yet to produce to me what you regard as American supported dictators all over the world. Merely changing your tone from "America's dictators" to "America's not quite a democracy support" won't work here.

Why do you keep giving me links about my profession? Have I not stated enough times of our presence in Chad, Phillipines, Djibouti, etc.? Is your next step to give me a link about the M16A4?

I also find it very deceitful that you enjoy producing only links from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch (as if they matter or really care) that focus on America and no one else. Is America supposed to be perfect as it strives to aid others in the absence of our "friends?" Is it supposed to be able to make the correct decision that pleases everybody all of the time? Even American politicians have to vote favorable on somehting they don't fully aggree on to get a greater good accepted. You might want to check out the sins of others while you try to remain focused on America's imperfection.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/470719-post132.html
http://www.debatepolitics.com/470720-post133.html
 
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This was the case with WW2 as well. And also, I would hardly count WW2 as a war the US was involved in, I mean they only entered the war at the very end. I mean you can't just put a cherry on top of a cake and claim credit for baking a cake ;)


And you have been trying to preach about history to me? None of us can know it all and certainly we all can have our own perspectives, but damn. I don't even know where to go with this.
 
Originally Posted by LightDemon
The US is known for staying out of wars

Originally Posted by BodiSatva
Huge list of US Involvement in Wars, completely destroying your ill-thought point

Originally Posted by LightDemon
Bodisatva, you should read some of of Carl Becker's work, and maybe then you would realize how ethnocentric that time line is.

You said the US is known for staying out of wars and Bodi proved that you are totally and undeniably incorrect.

Who cares how ethnocentric the time line is? Of course the time line is ethnocentric. It is a timeline of wars involving the USA. What nation should he have used a list for to prove you wrong? Norway? Dust off that thinking cap AND PUT IT ON!

The US being involved in well over 20 wars, some of them being MAJOR WARS, with 7 or 8 covering about 40 years, in the course of 220 years (roughly 1/5 of its history has been MAJOR WARS that they are directly involved in) with almost the entire history of the USA being directly involved in some conflict or another.

Originally Posted by LightDemon
I would hardly count WW2 as a war the US was involved in

That IS one of the most Ignorant statements that I have ever heard in my life. You have ZERO credibility after this whacko display.

Even if you meant WWI, his list is still well beyond reproach and conclusively proves you wrong.

By May 1918, there were more than 500,000 US soldiers in France and by July of the same year, there were over a million US soldiers in France. I would hardly count that as involvement either :roll:
 
Well thats unfair. You really think the Britans and the French were on the cusp of pushing back the german invaders by themselves?? I don't think so.

Russia didn't count then? If Russia didn't put up such a fight in the east, Hitler wouldn't have been fighting a 2 front war. Too much credit is given to the western Allies, and not enough to the eastern front. Russia was by far the one who suffered the most casualties, the one that has contributed the most, the one who spent the most. Leningrad, as well as Stalingrad, became obsessions of Hitler because Hitler couldn't destroy them. Russia preoccupied the Germans, which then led the west to victory and glory, leaving themselves out of the picture for some reason...

But let's refer to that list once more. And I'll admit that calling that list ethnocentric was very impolite of me, but I did not misspoke. That list is still ethnocentric, in the context that it assumes that those wars are wars that the US wants to be involved in. Referring back to my statement, I said, the US is known for staying out of wars because that's how they make a lot of profit.

Lets pick one of these wars of the list to show you my point. How about the most important one to our American heritage? The Revolutionary War. First you would need to know the relationship between the North versus the South. The South didn't want to become independant in the first place, and they were forced to sign the Declaration of Independance (you can tell from the penmanship of the signatures). Britain was the one buying all of their cotton, why would they want to break away from them? It wouldn't make sense to break of ties with Britain.

On the other hand the North needed to break off ties with Britain because of all the taxes on thier products. This distinction is evident because of the different market systems between the North and the South. What actually happened was British troops were sent to both South and North states, but the ones in the South were not fighting American troops, they were fighting Native Americans. They were actually protecting the Southern states.

In the North, we had the French helping us out. By about 1779, French troops have nearly double the size of the US troops in North America. Silly as you might think it sound, but if it wasn't for the French (and it's hatred for the Brits) the US couldn't have won this war. And now, let me go back to my statement, if the French had more troops than the US, that means the US contributed less. On the same lines of my statement that the US is hardly a major contributor to WW2, this is what context I'm stating it in. And how did it make money of this? Well, I'll defer everyone to the Declaration of Independance, which is essentially just a list of taxes the US refuses to pay (plus a fancy introduction in the front).

In WW2, the US have not contributed as nearly as much money as Britain or Russia have. Not nearly the number of soldiers compared to Russia, and not nearly as much time as either of those two. In the end, it was Russia who did the most fighting, but consequently also who suffered the most, both socially and economically. If you asked me who won the war, I'd say it was actually Russia's defiance against Hitler, not soley responsible for the entire victory of course. It was the 2 fronts that defeated Hitler after all. But compared to what the US offered, Russia was the one who put thier neck on the line.

But I'll admit to this much, after WW2, the US has changed it's foreign policy as it has become one of the most powerfullest nations in the world. So after WW2, it has become intricately involved in wars, which is half that list basically. But beyond WW2 and earlier, expanding territorially was not a problem for US until they reached the pacific and when Mexico wouldn't let them get more than Texas.

And I'll also admit I may have crossed the line when I said the US was hardly involved in WW2, which they were. But not in comparison with the other major players in that war. My bad! ;)
 
In WW2, the US have not contributed as nearly as much money as Britain or Russia have. Not nearly the number of soldiers compared to Russia, and not nearly as much time as either of those two. In the end, it was Russia who did the most fighting, but consequently also who suffered the most, both socially and economically. If you asked me who won the war, I'd say it was actually Russia's defiance against Hitler, not soley responsible for the entire victory of course. It was the 2 fronts that defeated Hitler after all. But compared to what the US offered, Russia was the one who put thier neck on the line.
Naturally the Russians suffered more. Russia was invaded by the Third Reich in 1941. Although Russians did bear the brunt of the fighting in WWII, their stout defense of the Motherland would not have been possible without the heroic Allied convoys which kept them resupplied with food and war materials. The Russians didn't get going offensively until the Allies opened the western front with the landing at Normandy. In all truth, WWII was going badly for both the Russians and the Brits until the US entered the war directly.
 
Your "little" history lesson was extremely lacking in anything substantialLightDemon! :lol:

Look, at least take it like a man if you are gonna fold like a house of cards.
I can't stand people that wussy out and aren't accountable for themselves, it is extremely childish.

It looks like you are right Utah
 
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