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We must leave Iraq

Hey GySgt,

Can you tell me why you think the US military had to invade Iraq?
Given the fact that Iraq was no threat to the american people or their way of life.
If it is for hegemony (control of oil, military bases, ect), do you think that is morally justifyable?
Do you honestly believe that the administration did not know that Iraq had no feasible WMD program or was much of a threat to it's neighbors at the time of invasion?

thanks

Damn Gunny, I know I'm sposed to let newbies be, and I will, but gosh Walley, this one is like a gift.

Just put this one down and be done with it. (But then I ain't read the thread so maybe you did).

Hello Vegas. Suckers.
 
Originally posted by teacher:
Ain't read one word of this thread.

But then being penned by Billo why bother?

Hear's the deal...

We gonna be shooting stupid Arabs in the head for a long time to come.

With any luck, that will keep the mushroom clouds from gracing the skies of our fair nation.

It's the way our future is folks, make no bones about it.

Pretty much it is a race between the civilizing of the freed Arab women and the reeducation of thier male children. That's all. A generation or two from now will it be the free women or the grudge holding old men that influence the young? By then they will have Nukes, plain and simple, nothing we can do to stop that. But you morons can't seem to adress that point, can you?

Better to scream...

"Bush lied".
"Nuh-uh".
"Did too".

Cause that's what the TV tells you to do.

Morons.

Miss me?
If only Bush could be this honest about his intentions, I might like the guy. Even though he says things I find disgusting, the unflinching candor of how it is said, has to score points on some level. This kind of unbridled honesty is rare!
 
ME reaction to Bush's speech...

Reality is not that hard to see when you look for it.
Moderator's Warning:
Billo... You know the rules. Plz do not copy and paste entire articles.
 
Like who? Why don't you name off these "dictators." Shall America be perfect and snub the French for the ongoing colonies in western Africa? How about our relations with Russia or China? Since they aren't exactly "pillars" of freedom and human rights, why don't we just dismiss their existence? And instead of dealing with the House of Saud, who are currently terrified at the prospect that their creations might control a bordering nation in their future, why don't we instead install the Radical and do business with them?

Well it has been you that in this thread and other have talked about the great change of USA towards supporting democracy and the Iraq war as the great kick of while other just standing by and look and supporting dictaturships. But if this switch to supporting democracy is only been done by atacking countries unfriendly towards USA while at the same time USA keep supporting friendly dictatorship it's just seems to be business as usual.

You see, there is noithing more trustworthy than staring at evil and slapping it. What is trustworthy about staring at evil and defendiung its existence for fear of the troubles that will come by removing it?

Well why can't I then rob an American bank then and give the money to the people that are starving to death in an African country? Why can't you order a 10 % extra tax on everyone living in developed country and then give the money to the people in the poorest country? That sometimes the "right choice" can have alot of negative conseqvuences that right now can be to big. Also remember that Saddam was only one of many evils in the world. Also that the cost for Iraq is increasing drasticly both in money and lifes. Just think how all that money could have been used in other places.

This is fact:

Many of the Saudi people see the American forces in Saudi Arabia as protecting the "House of Saud." Out of intellectual habit, American forces ensure that the Radical Base, which ironically has been a side effect creation of the House of Saud, does not interfere with oil demands and as a base in the volatile Middle East.

This is intersting connected to Iraq. Because Saddam had the same roll as House of Said. That Saddam just as the Hous of Said stoped radical elements and breaking of the state of Iraq. And that USA was as pleased with him as the Hous of Said until he "misbehaved". Also the result of taking out Saddam has starting to get in the direction that you fear will happen in Saud Arabia if you stop supporting them. So from that perspective the Iraq war seems to be more then of getting ride of a guy that does the job you like (keeping radicals away from power and keeping stability) but because he longer loyal to you he should get rid off.

Now, these people have been fooled by their Saudi leadership and the rent-a-clerics that are shoved in front of microphones about America's role in their society. We are blamed for their lack of education, their lack of employment, and their lack of freedom. But this is a lie. America is the scapegoat of these lords of terror. The Arab culture is a creation by Arabs..not Americans.

But havn't USA and other western countries have a used part in what leaders that got in power? That if you had "good arabs" that had great plans for democracy and talked about them openly they would disapaer thanks to the leaders that probably been put in power thanks to western powers. That in most culture putting dictators into power leads to corruption and of course opression.


I don't deal in "what ifs." Especially when the "what ifs" are unlikely and counter historical facts. Troops in Saudi Arabia are very safe and the very few times they have been targetted it has been by acknowledged terrorists by the Saudi and American government and by the Saudi people. Are you even aware of what is going on in Saudi Arabia since 2003?

I was talking generally about all the dictaurships there USA have troops. What if they belive in the USA goverment and also your words that democracy should be created by force. That at the same time they see your troops in there countries as an obstical that they need to get rid off. Are they then terrorist or freedom fighters?
 
Originally posted by Tashah:
Billo... You know the rules. Plz do not copy and paste entire articles.
I didn't!

If you go to the link I provided, you will see I left out several paragraphs on Sunni worries regarding what they think the Shia will do to them if the US pulls out of Iraq.
 
Hey GySgt,

Can you tell me why you think the US military had to invade Iraq?
Given the fact that Iraq was no threat to the american people or their way of life.

I will try, but I don't think you want to see it.....

Radical Islam is a precursor to terrorism. It lays the ideological and religious foundation for Islamic-inspired violence and, as such, represents a long-term threat to the national security of the United States of America. The ongoing Global War on Terrorism targets the current generation of terrorists; however, unless the ideology that spawned them is also countered the long-term threat to the U.S. will exponentially grow with time.

What this means is that as long as America simply looks away as religious zealots continue to indoctrinate hate amongst the populations we will find religious terrorism is a common place. Religious terrorism is a symptom of a disease. 9/11 was a symptom. The disease (Arab inspired and created) is the wide sweeping prescribed oppression throughout the region. It is the restriction of information, creativity, and under valued education. And why are these things so present and common amongst Islamic countries? Because education, freedom, and creativity are religion killers and thusly threaten control and power (think Roman catholicism circa 16th century). America (and the west) has been a comfortable scapegoat for these nation leaders (some of which we call "friends.") and we have allowed it.

It is bad enough that Islamic terrorists have targetted their fellow Muslims in the region (north Africa). But when 9/11 occurred, the American government's designed stupor was shaken. No longer was it acceptable to turn our backs for a stable oil supply as Muslims sufferred under Arab regimes that abused them. These terrorists come from Egypt, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran. Iraq's terror was more about killing Muslims in Kuwait and Iran and paying for suicide bombers against Israelis, but this doesn't exonerate them of terror.

Iraq: Although Iraq was defeated in the Gulf War (first one), the coalition's reluctance to press on and unseat Hussein enabled him to proclaim it a victory. In its aftermath he pursuaded a policy of confrontation, obstructing UN inspectors searching for WMD, and testing the resolve of the US over scores of issues, major and minor. Two years after, when the deaths of 18 soldiers in Somalia (by Al-Queda) seemed to have affected US resolve, Hussein once again threatened Kuwait, and although his troops withdrew without crossing the border the incidnet was typical of the brinkmanship in which he excelled. In 1999, after UN inspectors were barred from Baath party headquarters, America mounted operation Desert Fox. Along the way was his failed attempts to shoot down aircrafts patrolling the no-fly zone. Aside from all of this, the UN sanctions were taken completely advantage of by Hussein and his lack of care towards hospitals killed countless Iraqis. And of course, there was always the UN/Saddam scandel that encouraged the behavior.

Now, that was just about focus upon Iraq. However, this is bigger. The tactical position of Iraq is undeniable. It's populations are split up amongst tribes that would have been killing each other long ago were it not for the brutality of a dictator. But is the dictator the answer? Are Muslims worth so little that it would be acceptable to condemn them to such a fate? If Iraq could be free from their tyranny (easy enough) and act as a Muslim nation that recognizes the rights of all it serves (much harder to do and not planned for very well), then it could be the beacon that Arabs need for this region. Does the "House of Saud" want to share a border with a free nation of Muslims that recognizes the basic human rights and allows an individual voice? Does the Baathist Party in Syria? The bitter Mullahs in Iran? Of course not. This is why we have seen a silent encourgement of civil war. However, as we are starting to see from their softening policies, the prospect of a bordering terrorist nation of their creation scares them even more.

But let's just look at your question....

"why you think the US military had to invade Iraq? Given the fact that Iraq was no threat to the american people or their way of life."

Why does a nation that is supposed to stand up for the little guy and against tyranny need to be threatened before it can act for the greater good? Why has "stability" in the Middle East mean that dictators get a pass? And if America is guilty for maintaining stability for oil by keeping Saddam and Khomeini big enough that they couldn't threaten each other yet small enough to remain in their corners, why is America guilty for addressing that over due responsibility? For that matter, why didn't the Muslim nations in the Middle East care enough about Muslims to do something on their own? Because by refraining to address a neighboring situation like Saddam's Iraq means a silent preservation of one's own tyrannies.

We can both look at the world and see where all the hot spots are. Is it a coincidence that the vast majority of them involve Muslim countries? Let's compare western civilization with Middle Eastern civilization. Is it a coincidence that the world that offers individual opportunity, enforces education, holds women as equal, tolerates religion without a monopoly on it, and welcomes outside influence thrives while the other remains stagnate and produces mass religious terror? There are no coincidences. The problems of the Middle east are self-prescribed and until Muslims address this the "martyr" will continue to grow in strength as it kills Christians, Hindus, and fellow "back-slidden" Muslims.

Iraq sufferred more than their surrounding countries. This "War on Terror" is not about revenge as so many people need to believe. It is foolish to chase down individual terrorists as they kill and ignore the region where terrorists are bred.

If it is for hegemony (control of oil, military bases, ect), do you think that is morally justifyable?

Well, let me ask you this...

Does the "House of Saud" maintain power in Saudi Arabia, becuase America's bases protect it from the Bin Ladden's? Of course. Was Khomeini's Iran kept in its corner and kept alive becuase of America's meddling? Of course. Was Saddam's Iraq kept in it's corner amd kept alive because of America's meddling? Of course. Were Kuwaitis saved (and their oil) from Hussein's tyranny because of America's involvement? Of course.

Our involvement in the Middle East has always been about "stability." But stability at all costs has been wrong. Evil, corruption, and tyranny has been allowed to fester and destroy local societies all for the sake of maintaining a global uninterrupted oil demand. But what is the answer? Let's take oil out of the equation. Should Muslims in the Middle East be subjected to what ever zealot wishes to enforce his version of Islam upon the masses? Should oppression through religion be accepted? Is freedom only for white westerners and those that travel to live in our lands?

And what is the prioce for all this absent freedom? Religious terror seeking to blame anyone and everyone but itself?

Do you honestly believe that the administration did not know that Iraq had no feasible WMD program or was much of a threat to it's neighbors at the time of invasion?

No. I have seen the satellite photos of nuclear sites in Iran that go back to Khomeini (after he re-instated the program from the Shah). To this date, I have seen no photos about Iraq. President Bush made the amature mistake of masking truer intentions under WMD. I believe that because of Hussein's reluctance to play ball according to UN mandates that enforced his presence in the region, there was enough reason to suspect. However, I would have focused more on the human suffering aspect which acts as a base for religious terror. "Human suffering" wouldn't allow some of our friends their comfortable exhonerations form doing what is right for his fellow man.
 
Self-prescribed? It doomed itself? You must be really delusional if you truly believe that........

The majority of what you said after this is almost regurgitation of my own posts. But what you are not doing is using our involvement as excuses for Islam....

Did America tell the Arab nations to deprive their people of education? Is it America's fault that their isn't one world class university in the region? Was it an American conspiracy that made the Arab oil barons hoard their money from their people? Did we deny them infrastructure? Did we prescribe for them governments through religion? Was it the west that encouraged 14 centuries of hatreds between Shi'ite and Sunni? Was it our schools that taught them a hatred for others? Was it the west that created Islam out of war and maintain a force for violence throughout history to present day?

There problems are very self-prescribed.



So your attempt to make this seem like a disease that stemmed from the religion of the ME is not accurate.

My attempt? Considering that it is proffesional and can be found in many books regarding the Middle East (many written by Muslims), I would say it is very accurate. However, you seem to misunderstand what I have stated. The disease in the Middle East is Arab Islam. Are you being a bit "PC" here?

What are the problems of the Middle East as far as the social dynamics?

1) A low evaluation of education
2) Restriction of the free flow of information
3) Subjugation of women
4) Adherence to the extended family

Here's just four out of many that are present aspects in failing civilizations throughout history. For a reference, America doesn't have the above problems and we prosper. 16th cnetury European Christianity had these aspects and failed miserably. The monoploy of religion will always strangle the life blood of a society. If it is true that absolute power corrupts absolutely, then absolute religion corrupts religion absolutely. And what is the number one killer of religion? "Creativity." Creativity comes from such things like education. A restriction of what is allowed to read also allows the leader his power. Doesn't the continued use of the Qu'ran as the ultimate educational book in the region offer exactly that? And what about the women? How many women are noted in the Qu'ran as being the object of a man's failure? Where are the heroins that deny the brutal "wisdom" of the old cleric? Does a civilization that restricts the contribution of half its population have a chance to compete with the world? And what is the damage inflicted with adhering to the extended clan? We are seeing this in Iraq as Sunni kill Shi'ite and vice versa. We also see this in other places. Countries that cling to the "tribe" will always cheat themselves out of their best possibility, because their best may happen to belong to another tribe.

But let's look at the religions themselves. Christianity didn't come from the harshness of the Old Testament. It was a pacifist movement inspired by Mr. Jesus Christ. Despite troubles along the way, 2000 years later is Christianity a largely pacifist religion? Islam came from the Muhammed who slaughtered infidels into submission. From the non-stop historical violence (with a brief few centuries of stagnation), to today's inspired violence, does Islam reflect its roots?

This seems like a good summary of your entire post. Basically:
US enemy = ME civilization

....an ENTIRE civilization?

Wake up. We are not facing rogues of Islam. We are facing a failing civilization. The studies are clear. There are tens of millions of Radicals that act as a sea from which the terrorist swim.

Is this like a neo-genocidal way of thought?

Is this your way of making it easier to process? A "neo-genocidal" way of thought would be to drop nuclear bombs and end it. Amongst this civilization is the vast majority who although they hate, also want nothing to do with the Muslim Brotherhood's teachings or their war upon the west.

So no, this is not a "geo-genocidal" way of thought.

You fail to define who the enemy are, but you say they are in the millions. You generalize them to be mainly Arab and Muslim, but not everyone of them. This sounds like a hunter that has just entered the woods and firing at anything that moves.

I'm beginning to think I'm in discussion with a high schooler who hasn't yet achieved the ability to look at his world clearly. Or worse, a Campus veteran not yet hardened by life's realities. Our enemies wear civilian clothing. They subscribe to the teachings of Islam and read the Qu'ran. They believe they are good Muslims. But according to their Muslim victims, they are not good Muslims. These are criminals, but until they pick up a rifle or a bomb, they cannot be easily identified. However, we do have a working tool...

1) Terrorists swim in the sea of Radical Islam.
2) This sea is based on the teachings of Radical Islamic Clerics.
3) Clerics preach/teach at Mosques.
4) Find the Radical Mosques and you’ll find the supporters of Radical Islam.
5) Find the supporters (mosques & funding) and sooner or later you’ll find the terrorists.

And here's the highlight of your post:

~snip~

How would I like it? That's a pretty presumptious question. Presuming that the US are the ones charged with protecting the entire world! That it is the US's responsiblity to govern the world. That the US should just ASSUME power over all nations, and dictate who is allowed nuclear weapons and who is not, and of course the ones who are allowed to have them will be us!

And what world do you live in? Are you aware of the position America took after WWII? Was it not America that tried to get away with isolationalism twice and both times we had to send our troops across the ocean to die for our needs to "stay out of it?" After the Japanese were beaten we denied them a military and assumed the position of protector in the East as all the little guys put their little worlds back together. After Germany fell, America assumed the rols of European protector as it parked an army in western Germany and commenced to chase around the Soviet threat wherever it threatened to poke its head. This was all done so that we could referree the world away from another world war. Did Europe fight us? Did Japan fight us? Did any of our allies fight us? Of course not. Because underneath their complaints and superficial cares, they would rather we do it than for them to soil their hands or simply get themselves into another genocidal world war, of which we have to come rescue them.

You see, life isn't about what is and is not fair. It's about preservation. It's about security. Would it be fair to allow third world nations nuclear arms because we do? Of course. But would it be smart? We can trust us. We have proven to the world that they can trust us. All it would take is for an Islamic nation to "lose" a nuclear device and we only discover it after a "martyr" detonates it some where in the world for us not to trust them.

So, it's not such a "presumptious question."



How about the US actually follow internation laws, and actually participate in international criminal court? The US is a signatory of the Geneva conventions (III), promising to uphold the laws and agreements, but the US never gets prosecuted because we dont participate in international courts. It's a a "yes, we agree to the laws, but no, you can't punish us if we don't follow them" kind of agreement. How about we agree to do this before we engage in ANYTHING international. That way we are accountable for our actions because as of now, there is no justice. No matter who "charged" you with the responsbility of protecting the world from tyranny, you cannnot do justice.

And what international law would this be? The law that preserves a brutal dictator behind "soveriegn" borders? If you are referring to prisoners (or criminals) of war, review your law. Our enemies do not wear uniforms nor fiught under a banner. Therefore they are not afforded the rules governing the Geneva convention. They are also not citizens of the United States. Have any of these Muslims nations tried to claim their own creations? No. We have enetered an age where our laws are not adequate enough for what we face.


So who exactly "charged" us with this responsibility? The american people? Those who say "protect us from the world" "protect us from those who envy our liberties" "protect those who want to violate freedom"? They have no right to do so.


Again, I simply ask you what world you live in. Review your history. Or do you think that despite two world wars and an almost third that the world can change its own diapers without us bleeding over what our absence will allow them to create?
 
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Lightdemon said:
But given these circumstances, religion is very miniscule when it comes to influence. However, that is not to say that religion has no part. It is the rulers and leaders who used religion to make policies, but religion itself does not. So your attempt to make this seem like a disease that stemmed from the religion of the ME is not accurate.

While it is true that ME rulers and leaders have used religion to make policies and to enhance their positions (Saddam was very good at invoking religion when it was to his advantage to do so), it is simply not true that "religion is very miniscule when it comes to influence".

Religion is the single largest driving force in ME life - and conflicts - today, as it has been for centuries. For a really good read on secular conflict and the central, overriding role that it plays in not only Iraq, but the entire ME, read "The Foreigner's Gift" by Fouad Ajami.

The most important reason for the current situation in Iraq today, and the reason why it is imperative that some form of inclusive, representative government succeed in Iraq, is the threat of ME-wide chaos resulting from religious conflicts.
 
Well it has been you that in this thread and other have talked about the great change of USA towards supporting democracy and the Iraq war as the great kick of while other just standing by and look and supporting dictaturships. But if this switch to supporting democracy is only been done by atacking countries unfriendly towards USA while at the same time USA keep supporting friendly dictatorship it's just seems to be business as usual.

No..no...no...no. You made the accusation of our present day dictator support now back it up. Aside from our long time habit of supporting the House of Saud (not a dictator) and our support towards the Pakistani military that maintians the nuclear armed democracy (not a dictator), I am at a loss of what you speak of.

America's use of dictators was a Cold War event and was a European legacy for which European nations continue to this day. Refer to Russia's diplomatic foolishness. And what about France's ongoing colonies in western Africa that maintain control through armed thugs? Of course, we know who was making money under the carpet with Saddam Hussein. And why does Ahmenadejad reach out to Berlin for an ally against America? Even the West's enemies know where the weakness is.

Business as usual? Based on what? History? Of the very few dictators that we did support against the Soviet influence during the Cold War? Seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, but America's will to "support" Saddam went out the window after the Iran/Iraq war came to a halt. And after he again invaded a neighboring country in 1990, the American government completely turned it's back. It wasn't until 2003, that America did something after his decade long festering and abuses upon his people through sweetened back door UN deals and under UN sanctions.
 
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Lightdemon said:
So your attempt to make this seem like a disease that stemmed from the religion of the ME is not accurate.

Oh, but it is accurate. Very much so. Try these undercover mosque videos on for size.

For more, read "The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11" by Lawrence Wright.

One thing you will note in the videos and the book: the non-state nature of those calling for jihad against all infidels and kafiri in general and Americans in particular. That is, bin Laden is Saudi, Zawahiri is Egyptian. A large number of jihadis are from SA, Yemen, Sudan, Algeria, Morocco, et al. This is a religion-based conflict, not a state-based conflict. And this religion is the most prevalent religion across the entire ME and growing rapidly in other parts of the world.

That doesn't mean that they are all one big Muslim happy family. As noted earlier, there are conflicts, centuries old conflicts, within the ranks of Muslims. Indeed, again as noted earlier, these conflicts account for the larger part of the violence and chaos in Iraq today.
 
Did America tell the Arab nations to deprive their people of education? Is it America's fault that their isn't one world class university in the region? Was it an American conspiracy that made the Arab oil barons hoard their money from their people? Did we deny them infrastructure? Did we prescribe for them governments through religion? Was it the west that encouraged 14 centuries of hatreds between Shi'ite and Sunni? Was it our schools that taught them a hatred for others? Was it the west that created Islam out of war and maintain a force for violence throughout history to present day?

There problems are very self-prescribed.

The problem with your prescription of the problem is that you are still assuming the US is the one responsible for the clean up job. That the US is so altruistic, that we are just going to 'rescue' these people. The huge problem with saying that it is self-prescribe is that it lays blame on the wrong culprit.

By saying it is self-prescribed, you blame the leader of that country, who you say is responsible for the infrastructure. This is true of course. But you do not accept the fact that the ME had no choice, but to run there states in military style (which is an oppresive style of operations). I point again to the circumstances in the ME, when they were pinned on all sides, and torn from all corners. Did they have any other choice but to defend themselves? Was there another way for them to act? I dont think so, unless you can show me how.

By you saying it is self-prescribed, you just glossed over alot of details on why the ME became the way it is. You blamed the leader, but I disagree. I lay blame to the situation, which was created by the greedy capitalists who had their eyes on the oil. That is the culprit. Greed.



What are the problems of the Middle East as far as the social dynamics?

1) A low evaluation of education
2) Restriction of the free flow of information
3) Subjugation of women
4) Adherence to the extended family

Here's just four out of many that are present aspects in failing civilizations throughout history. For a reference, America doesn't have the above problems and we prosper.

Wrong. The US's education system is neither great nor is it the same accross the country. Not only can you not assess the US's education system the same way in every state, in many places, education is just atrocious. Especially in the poor areas. Poor education ~ Poor city/state. This is a very common corrolary in the US.

Restriction of the free flow of information? I guess that's why we have the FCC. And I guess that's why the CIA always withhold evidence/documents from the public. Please dont make it sound as if the First Amendment is a cherished right that is embraced by our govt.

And the subjugation of women? It was only in 1979 that it was made illegal to rape your wife. A man could not be guilty of raping his own wife. Women in the US is far from not being subjugated by men.

Take your own advice, and wake up. The US is not without flaws, far from it. What you really need to do is acknowledge the fact that the US is not as great as it is made out to be. You sould learn to read the propaganda that is so evident in the media, as well as other sources of information that is so widespread like an epidemic.

I will save the last half of your reply for later. I have to get back to homeroom and to reality in HIGH SCHOOL. Thank you very much for those subtle personal attacks. But next time, I'd appreciate it if you stay on the topic and not attack the author of the post.
 
Ok, done with Homeroom. Back to responding.

The monoploy of religion will always strangle the life blood of a society.

In general I can agree to this, but that is not always the case. This only occurs when when a particular religion does not tolerate other religions, I guess that's what you are calling 'monopolising'.

If it is true that absolute power corrupts absolutely, then absolute religion corrupts religion absolutely. And what is the number one killer of religion? "Creativity." Creativity comes from such things like education. A restriction of what is allowed to read also allows the leader his power. Doesn't the continued use of the Qu'ran as the ultimate educational book in the region offer exactly that? And what about the women? How many women are noted in the Qu'ran as being the object of a man's failure? Where are the heroins that deny the brutal "wisdom" of the old cleric? Does a civilization that restricts the contribution of half its population have a chance to compete with the world? And what is the damage inflicted with adhering to the extended clan? We are seeing this in Iraq as Sunni kill Shi'ite and vice versa. We also see this in other places. Countries that cling to the "tribe" will always cheat themselves out of their best possibility, because their best may happen to belong to another tribe.

Here you show yourself as having superficial beliefs of the Quran. Anyone who has actually studied Islam, or is practicing Islam, knows how incompatible racism and intolerance is with the Islamic belief. Now I dont want to discount all of the things you have just wrote, but the culprit you are blaming again is not correct. And I've said this already, it's not the religion, its the one behind it, who is using religion as a tool. I know you say this as well, but you seem to think that it stems from the religion itself, which is not correct.

Again, I point out that religion itself is merely the tool. Religion is not the main culprit. But neither is the one using religion as a tool to boost it's military strenth in it's infrastructure. Religion has always been used as this kind of tool throughout all of history, anyhow. The culprit, again, I point to the ones who were enticed by the lure of the oil.

But let's look at the religions themselves. Christianity didn't come from the harshness of the Old Testament. It was a pacifist movement inspired by Mr. Jesus Christ. Despite troubles along the way, 2000 years later is Christianity a largely pacifist religion? Islam came from the Muhammed who slaughtered infidels into submission. From the non-stop historical violence (with a brief few centuries of stagnation), to today's inspired violence, does Islam reflect its roots?

Again here you show ignorance of the Islamic faith. Just as how Christianity has morphed into what it is today, so did Islam. Of course you are aware that the early Christians refused to fight, they would not even pick up a sword. But yet today, very few american protestant would be afraid of picking up a gun, in fact, as you well know, we have a law that says it's our right to have a right to bear arms.

This is no different for Islam. Muhammad may have started Islam, but it was not set in stone, neither was Christianity. Both religions change as time changes, as technologies advance, as politics wither and strenthen, as the frequently as the wind blows. When Khalid ibn al-Walik, a great general of the Prophet Muhammad, took over both Persia and the Byzantine Empire, Muhammad allowed these two to practice thier own laws, as well as thier own religions. Converting to Islam was thier choice.

We almost never here that side of the story about Islam, all we here about is Jihad this, and Jihad that. And just as another history lesson for you, Muhammad was not the first to "slaughter infidels into submission", it was the way of life in Arabia. People in that region lived that way because of the very thin resources, people fought over for food and raw materials. Arabs lived thru plundering, this was already in place before Muhammad "slaughtered infidels into submission". This was the way of life. He didn't start it, it was set before he was even born.

Is this way of living wrong or immoral? yes, but only by certain standards. If you lived at that time, it was the only thing to do if you wanted to survive. That is reality. Every culture has a different way of life, and standards should not be placed where they do not belong. So again, is this way of living wrong or immoral? No, not by the de facto standards of ancient Arabia. But yes, if you want to apply to the standards we have today, but that would be incorrect to do so.

I'm beginning to think I'm in discussion with a high schooler who hasn't yet achieved the ability to look at his world clearly. Or worse, a Campus veteran not yet hardened by life's realities. Our enemies wear civilian clothing. They subscribe to the teachings of Islam and read the Qu'ran. They believe they are good Muslims. But according to their Muslim victims, they are not good Muslims. These are criminals, but until they pick up a rifle or a bomb, they cannot be easily identified. However, we do have a working tool...

1) Terrorists swim in the sea of Radical Islam.
2) This sea is based on the teachings of Radical Islamic Clerics.
3) Clerics preach/teach at Mosques.
4) Find the Radical Mosques and you’ll find the supporters of Radical Islam.
5) Find the supporters (mosques & funding) and sooner or later you’ll find the terrorists.

Again, your conception of Islam is lacking. You seem to be unable to draw the distinction between Islam and terrorist. And that is what seems to be a huge problem in the US. People cannot separate the two; as if one is the pre-requisite of the other. This is probably why so many civilians are dead because our military cannot see a distinction either.

And what world do you live in? Are you aware of the position America took after WWII? Was it not America that tried to get away with isolationalism twice and both times we had to send our troops across the ocean to die for our needs to "stay out of it?" After the Japanese were beaten we denied them a military and assumed the position of protector in the East as all the little guys put their little worlds back together. After Germany fell, America assumed the rols of European protector as it parked an army in western Germany and commenced to chase around the Soviet threat wherever it threatened to poke its head. This was all done so that we could referree the world away from another world war. Did Europe fight us? Did Japan fight us? Did any of our allies fight us? Of course not. Because underneath their complaints and superficial cares, they would rather we do it than for them to soil their hands or simply get themselves into another genocidal world war, of which we have to come rescue them.

The reason why Europe did not fight the US, was because while they were fighting themselves out, the US was making bank. Again, like I pointed out in an earlier post, the US is well known for staying out of wars, and making profits by sellings products to both sides of the war.

But you see, by the end of WW2, the forces around the world was exhausted. Heavy losses on both sides, extinguished materials and wealth, etc. The only one left standing was the one who did the least fighting, who contributed the least, and still have a very powerful military. Was it because we protected the losers of the war? no, we were occupying them, just like how all wars end; with occupation of territories.

This would be the obvious reason, but your last sentence in this quote, again, you think that the US is so righteous and virtuous. That the US is doing everyone a favor. Stop dreaming and wake up. The US did what it did because it can, and wanted to seize the booty, the spoils of war.

You see, life isn't about what is and is not fair. It's about preservation. It's about security. Would it be fair to allow third world nations nuclear arms because we do? Of course. But would it be smart? We can trust us. We have proven to the world that they can trust us. All it would take is for an Islamic nation to "lose" a nuclear device and we only discover it after a "martyr" detonates it some where in the world for us not to trust them.

So, it's not such a "presumptious question."

lol, "we can trust us"? I beg to differ. Many Americans do not trust their own govt. Nor should we, because we should remain speculative and check the govt. The govt should be afraid of its people, the people should not be afraid of thier govt.

And what international law would this be? The law that preserves a brutal dictator behind "soveriegn" borders? If you are referring to prisoners (or criminals) of war, review your law. Our enemies do not wear uniforms nor fiught under a banner. Therefore they are not afforded the rules governing the Geneva convention. They are also not citizens of the United States. Have any of these Muslims nations tried to claim their own creations? No. We have enetered an age where our laws are not adequate enough for what we face.

So terrorists, are no longer Iraqi, Afghan, Iranian, or even American? That being terrorist, takes away thier national identity?

And your last sentence, is something Dubbya Bush would say, seeing as how he thinks he is above the law. What good is the UN if their laws are useless right?

but a better question would be, what good is the laws created by the UN, when a country does not follow them, and cannot be punished? What good is this organisation if it cannot control it's members?

Is it such a wonder then, that so many countries detest the US? Is it such a surprise?

Again, I simply ask you what world you live in. Review your history.

ditto.
 
No..no...no...no. You made the accusation of our present day dictator support now back it up. Aside from our long time habit of supporting the House of Saud (not a dictator) and our support towards the Pakistani military that maintians the nuclear armed democracy (not a dictator), I am at a loss of what you speak of.

America's use of dictators was a Cold War event and was a European legacy for which European nations continue to this day. Refer to Russia's diplomatic foolishness. And what about France's ongoing colonies in western Africa that maintain control through armed thugs? Of course, we know who was making money under the carpet with Saddam Hussein. And why does Ahmenadejad reach out to Berlin for an ally against America? Even the West's enemies know where the weakness is.

Business as usual? Based on what? History? Of the very few dictators that we did support against the Soviet influence during the Cold War? Seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, but America's will to "support" Saddam went out the window after the Iran/Iraq war came to a halt. And after he again invaded a neighboring country in 1990, the American government completely turned it's back. It wasn't until 2003, that America did something after his decade long festering and abuses upon his people through sweetened back door UN deals and under UN sanctions.

First of all you can't be serius if you claim that SaudArabia and Pakistan as not being dicatorships and not demorcatic countries. I hope I just misunderstand you else I will sadly go to a personal atacka and say that you are out in space then it comes to your belifes.

Well for starters USA has troops in 120 countries. And I bet atleast some of those countries are dictators. But hey they are just there for vacation right and in no way you can see there precence there as support of dictators, right?

The United States Army | Operations
 
The problem with your prescription of the problem is that you are still assuming the US is the one responsible for the clean up job. That the US is so altruistic, that we are just going to 'rescue' these people.

Consider the other problems of the Middle East. The pressures in the MENA region consist of:

1) Population: Within the next 25 years…

- Egypt’s population will increase by 38%
- Jordan’s by 67%
- Syria’s by 58%
- Saudi Arabia’s by 94%
- Pakistan’s by 69%, and
- Israel’s by 39%

2) Decreasing Fresh Water Supplies: The region faces precipitous decrease in per capita fresh water supply.

3) Economic doldrums / disaster: The regional unemployment for ages 15-35 is 40% and growing. It is mostly males and they can’t even afford to get married (study Islam).

There are no known solutions to these problems except one - Jihad. A civilization full of indoctrinated hate who watch news programs from Al-Jazeera that tsunamis and earthquakes on Jewish conspiracies. A civilization that is determined to practice the very traditions that have oppressed them for centuries. It is true that Radical Islam represents a long-term, continuing threat to the U.S. in that it lays the ideological and religious foundation for Islamic-inspired terrorism. And why is it a threat to us? Because they blame us for everything. If it's not the Jew at fault, it is the American puppet in front of them.

Only democracies have shown agility to deal with such problems. In the absence of answers victims always look for scapegoats. Radical Islamic clerics provide the scapegoat for problems facing the Arab/Islamic world. Their problems are the fault of the West, specifically the US. Either we find a way to support the affected countries in finding their own solutions to these problems or our sons and daughters will be fighting another, protracted fight.

So, there is no assumption and there certainly isn't a quest to "rescue" anybody. The only thing that will fix the Islmic world is Muslims. But we would be fools if we didn't do what we could and accepted the symptoms of their oppression as we merely retaliate on "rogues" while countless souls await in the sea of Radical Islam to take their place.

The huge problem with saying that it is self-prescribe is that it lays blame on the wrong culprit. By saying it is self-prescribed, you blame the leader of that country, who you say is responsible for the infrastructure.

No. This is also wrong. The leader of these countries are merely practicing thousands of years of tradition. Islam's prescriptive nature, its obsession with the details of daily behavior, created societies that valued order over social freedoms. Muslim anger towards Muslim governments does not always reflect an innate human longing for freedom of choice, but merely discontent over the bad choices regimes have made. Arab civilizations, especially, has conditioned populations to subservience for so long that many lack the self-confidence necessary to demand something greater. In the Middle East the group prevails and individual responsibility is an alien concept. The Middle Eastern events of the day reflect an historical pattern. When groups of people became so fed up with their governments they would over throw them only to abuse their power as triumphantly as those they overthrew.

This is called self-prescription. Look at the history of our nation (region for that matter). Have we not self-prescribed a system that allows us to prosper? No European colonialism that lasted a couple hundred years excuses thousands of years of tradition in the Middle East.
 
Here you show yourself as having superficial beliefs of the Quran. Anyone who has actually studied Islam, or is practicing Islam, knows how incompatible racism and intolerance is with the Islamic belief. Now I dont want to discount all of the things you have just wrote, but the culprit you are blaming again is not correct. And I've said this already, it's not the religion, its the one behind it, who is using religion as a tool. I know you say this as well, but you seem to think that it stems from the religion itself, which is not correct.


What is the purpose of splitting hairs? This PC nonesense. Thousands of years of violence from men who use Islam as a tool means that Islam is not the problem? Do you know anything about Muhammed? Are you aware of Islam's roots? What would Christianity look like today if Jesus decided that in the last portion of his life he would slaughter in Gods name?


Again here you show ignorance of the Islamic faith. Just as how Christianity has morphed into what it is today, so did Islam. Of course you are aware that the early Christians refused to fight, they would not even pick up a sword. But yet today, very few american protestant would be afraid of picking up a gun, in fact, as you well know, we have a law that says it's our right to have a right to bear arms.

This is no different for Islam. Muhammad may have started Islam, but it was not set in stone, neither was Christianity. Both religions change as time changes, as technologies advance, as politics wither and strenthen, as the frequently as the wind blows. When Khalid ibn al-Walik, a great general of the Prophet Muhammad, took over both Persia and the Byzantine Empire, Muhammad allowed these two to practice thier own laws, as well as thier own religions. Converting to Islam was thier choice.

We almost never here that side of the story about Islam, all we here about is Jihad this, and Jihad that. And just as another history lesson for you, Muhammad was not the first to "slaughter infidels into submission", it was the way of life in Arabia. People in that region lived that way because of the very thin resources, people fought over for food and raw materials. Arabs lived thru plundering, this was already in place before Muhammad "slaughtered infidels into submission". This was the way of life. He didn't start it, it was set before he was even born.

This point of view (which is what it is) is horribly askewed, yet wrapped around some fact. I applaud your efforts, though. But, here:

Religions change because men change them. Christianity has lost its way through history always forgetting about its roots and choosing to pick up the sword from time to time. Men of the west have always come to the realization that we must set aside the brutalities of men and reach back to the roots in order for the society to prosper and advance. To this date it has emerged into what we see today. No longer do armies travel to the promised land with crosses on their armour. No longer do men seek the devil in women and hang them.

Islam was a creation of Muhammed. It doesn't matter what occurred before him. What occurred after him was defined as an Islamic movement (and that was what we were talking about). The childhood of Islam was that of Cain to the "Christian" Abel. Muhammed survived by making war on pagan Arabs who, as soon as they were subjected, swelled the tribal armies of Islam. Islam exploded out of the Arabian desert and toppled empires through warfare. After Muhammed died, history saw the Shia succession. It is true that in the early days of Islam, it did not force conquered peoples to convert. The choice between embracing Islam or death came much later. Initially, the faith was exclusively Arab. Then after occurrences in history and by the thirteenth century both Christianity and Islam had become hardened into the irreconcilable positions they maintain today.

It's really simple once you drop the PC act. Does Christianity today reflect the 16th century, the crusade periods, or it's Jesus roots? Does Islam today reflect it's thousands of years of violence and its Muhammed roots? One can blame man all he wants, but at the heart of man is his religion.

Perhaps you should take another look at "oldreliable's" link. This is just one of many examples of today's Middle Eastern Islam....
lgf: Dispatches: Undercover Mosque


Is this way of living wrong or immoral? yes, but only by certain standards. If you lived at that time, it was the only thing to do if you wanted to survive.

Are we talking about the beginnings of Islam or today's behaviors of Islam? Not much of a difference. Your attempts to excuse Islam because people behaved violently before it's conception doesn't work. You may as well excuse the serial killer who is merely practicing what serial killers did centuries ago.

Again, your conception of Islam is lacking. You seem to be unable to draw the distinction between Islam and terrorist.

Really? Are you aware that there is a difference between an Islamists and a Radical Islamists? Are you aware that there is a difference between a Radical Islamists and a Islamists terrorists? Are you aware of the same category of terrorists that Christian/Islamic terrorists share? Are you even aware of the different types of terrorists? I am. Perhaps it's you that is lacking as you continue to look for the hair to split in my posts. I assure you that I have done a wealth of study into my profession.


lol, "we can trust us"? I beg to differ. Many Americans do not trust their own govt. Nor should we, because we should remain speculative and check the govt. The govt should be afraid of its people, the people should not be afraid of thier govt.

Leave Hollywood (V for Vendetta) where it belongs (this is why I sincerely questioned your age). The last I checked, America has sent it's son's and daughters to bleed on foreign shores numerous times since Hiroshima and Nagasaki in favor of leaving our nuclear weapons unused. Last I checked, we have favored the deaths of our own rather than wipe out entire civilizations under mushroom clouds. You through splitting hairs and looking for an argument?


So terrorists, are no longer Iraqi, Afghan, Iranian, or even American? That being terrorist, takes away thier national identity?
What does this have to do with anything? If the terrorist is an American we will try him and condemn him (as we have already seen). What do you suppose those who cheer for their martyrs (some behind closed doors) will do? Even in Saudi Arabia (our "friends") it is normal practice for the Royal Family to anually release Radical prisoners, because they fear the uprising of their own creations.

And your last sentence, is something Dubbya Bush would say, seeing as how he thinks he is above the law. What good is the UN if their laws are useless right?

Get off the partisan enslavement. Do you need a lesson on the UN? Ever seen them in action? The UN is highly corrupt. Will a security council that includes France, Russia, and China ever vote to remove a bloodstained regime? When the oil-for-food scandel broke we learned that they permanent Security Council members who opposed our intervention in Iraq had been making billions of dollars by helping Saddam HUssein subvert sanctions (the sanctions that critics of the war insisted would have worked, if given enough time). The general assempbly will not approve the deposition of tyrants because so many of its members would have reason themselves to fear, were justice and freedom to be acknowledged as grounds for intervention. The UN has its uses (I won't bore you with details), but it cannot and will not advance the cause of freedom. The body is a prisoner of its own membership. And its members will defend the soveriegn privileges of tyrants over human rights every time.

"UN laws?" "Above the law?" Like I said...yesterday's laws are not adequate enough to face today's threats. We have the enemy in custody and no law that tells us what to do with them and every law that tells us to free him to kill.



but a better question would be, what good is the laws created by the UN, when a country does not follow them, and cannot be punished? What good is this organisation if it cannot control it's members?

You are quickly showing your hand. Those that objected to the removal of Hussein's regime on grounds of state soveriegnty (UN law) were the moral descendants of those who looked away from Hitler's crimes (and to the Middle East, he was a Hitler). The difference today is that those who condone the deeds of mass murderers pose as moral arbiters, demanding to know what right Washington or London or Canberra has to decide which governments are unacceptable. A UN (an international system for tyrants) that is designed to protect kaisers and archdukes, czars and kings, is a monstrous burden on the world. No border can be allowed to stand if its only purpose is to protect a tyrant. And the "democracy" of the UN is a club where tyrannies enjoy an equal voice in deciding our global future.

Is it such a wonder then, that so many countries detest the US? Is it such a surprise?

What a surpise? You think they detest America because we didn't allow them to protect Saddam? Wrong. They detest us because of our success. We have proven time and again that socialism, Naziism, communism, and marxism doesn't work. We have spoiled the party for much of the world and they will not forgive us. And you think they detest us because we no longer look to the UN for moral guidance? Life just isn't that simple.
 
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First of all you can't be serius if you claim that SaudArabia and Pakistan as not being dicatorships and not demorcatic countries. I hope I just misunderstand you else I will sadly go to a personal atacka and say that you are out in space then it comes to your belifes.

Dictator = 1. a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession. dictator - Definitions from Dictionary.com

House of Saud: The royal family of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The royal family today is made up of an estimated 25,000 members, of whom around 200 are princes wielding influence. In the event that if either the sitting king or the crown prince were deemed unfit to rule, a five-member transitory council, appointed by the Council, would be empowered to run state affairs for a maximum of one week, before naming a successor. This is a monarchy, not a dictatorship.

Pakistan: Pakistan's democracy is being held together by the military. This may be repugnant to us in the west, but the Pakistani military only serves to maintain structure away from the Radical feuding wishes of the tribes. In the October 2002 general elections, the Pakistan Muslim League won a plurality of National Assembly seats with the second-largest group being the Pakistan People's Party Parliamentarians, a sub-party of the PPP. Zafarullah Khan Jamali of emerged as Prime Minister but resigned on 26 June 2004 and was replaced by leader Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain as interim Prime Minister. On 28 August 2004 the National Assembly voted 191 to 151 to elect the Finance Minister and former Citibank Vice President Shaukat Aziz as Prime Minister. Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal, a coalition of Islamic religious parties, won elections in North-West Frontier Province, and increased their representation in the National Assembly. Not a dictatorship.


You see, it doesn't matter hard you wish to twist reality, it is what it is.


Well for starters USA has troops in 120 countries.

Thankfully. The last time America had near 0 troops abroad we had to send them to their deaths for two world wars.

And I bet atleast some of those countries are dictators. But hey they are just there for vacation right and in no way you can see there precence there as support of dictators, right?

The United States Army | Operations

So you are guessing? Look closer. American troops are stationed abroad in embassies to ensure stabilty and secure international needs. They are not there as combat troops. Did we have a parked army in western Germany to protect a dictator or serve as a deterrent from would be dictators? It's the same all over the world. Why should Europeans benefit from our sweat and non-Europeans be left to suffer?

So again...if you are going to parade around America's affair with dictators as a current occurrence, at least be able to back up your point. Name them? Of course then we would get into the current governments that serve their people versus the rebel forces that merely strive for power.
 
Wrong. The US's education system is neither great nor is it the same accross the country. Not only can you not assess the US's education system the same way in every state, in many places, education is just atrocious. Especially in the poor areas. Poor education ~ Poor city/state. This is a very common corrolary in the US.

Restriction of the free flow of information? I guess that's why we have the FCC. And I guess that's why the CIA always withhold evidence/documents from the public. Please dont make it sound as if the First Amendment is a cherished right that is embraced by our govt.

And the subjugation of women? It was only in 1979 that it was made illegal to rape your wife. A man could not be guilty of raping his own wife. Women in the US is far from not being subjugated by men.

Take your own advice, and wake up. The US is not without flaws, far from it. What you really need to do is acknowledge the fact that the US is not as great as it is made out to be. You sould learn to read the propaganda that is so evident in the media, as well as other sources of information that is so widespread like an epidemic.

This is classic. Instead of facing the Middle East you attempt to exhonerate the aspects in history that crashes civilizations by remarking on insignificant stumbles in our thriving prosperous civilization.

Nobody said anything about America being perfect and nobody has denied our stumbles. Why then do you only have enough strength to tunnel your vision into an argument that isn't there? Does recognizing the faults of a failing civilization or addressing the religious aspects that contribute make you feel too uncomfortable? Too politically incorrect? Do you feel the need to defend the failures of the Middle East by bashing the success of America?

But I guess you have to have some sort of wisdom behind your excuses. I guess it is because of the FCC, imperfect educational system in select locations, and over due changes to rape laws that we see millions of American religious fanatics and their terrorists attacking other civilizations. Oh wait, we don't see this. Perhaps it's because we have tolerated religion as it grew along with societies needs and our willingness to continually address our social dynamics rather than deny them that brings us prosperity. Perhaps it is our welcome mat that has allowed so many immigrants and their cultures to mix that has enabled our national creativity to move us forward. Perhaps it is because of our willingess to address women's emancipation and allowed them to contribute that has allowed us to grow economically and socially.


Like I said...wake up.
 
Bergslagstroll said:
Well for starters USA has troops in 120 countries. And I bet atleast some of those countries are dictators. But hey they are just there for vacation right and in no way you can see there precence there as support of dictators, right?

American troops are engaged in much more than merely guarding our embassies around the world. They are the part of the GWOT that you don't see headlines about from Iraq and Afghanistan - though we did see headlines recently from Somalia. These troops are deployed in typically small units, many of which are combined services operations, and thus referred to as "Joint Task Force" or something similar. Their purpose is waging a counterinsurgency campaign in vulnerable areas; there tasks are mainly training indigenous forces or police or providing direct humanitarian aid (winning the hearts and minds - which also has the goal of providing good intel). They have even built a mosque or two! From Manchuria to the Horn of Africa to the Phillipines to Tibet to Columbia to Yemen. A surprising number of these troops are reservists. This is the GWOT at the grass roots level.


Read more about them in "Imperial Grunts" by Robert Kaplan. An extract from the Atlantic Monthly is here.
 
Missing Links

"Missing Links"
Here you show yourself as having superficial beliefs of the Quran. Anyone who has actually studied Islam, or is practicing Islam, knows how incompatible racism and intolerance is with the Islamic belief.
Dhimmi - ahl-dhimmi is "the free non-Muslim subjects living in Muslim countries who, in return for paying the capital tax, enjoyed protection and safety.

Now the whole abrahamic religion is a patriarch religion of racialism origin, where the male haploid descendents, from Isaac (israeli) and Ischmael (arab), expound the meaning of darwinism survival as the metaphor eternal life. The construction of the laws and rituals are meant to preserve the society and guarantee by paranoid obedience, for a perpetuation of the male haploid of genetic species.
In and of itself, separatism and self preservation are not intolerance, but do not doubt, it lies just below the surface.

This is no different for Islam. Muhammad may have started Islam, but it was not set in stone, neither was Christianity.
Now it is you who does not understand Islam. Sharia law was written within stone, the stone of an archaic cave, it was decreed as dictation verbatum.

Again, your conception of Islam is lacking. You seem to be unable to draw the distinction between Islam and terrorist. And that is what seems to be a huge problem in the US. People cannot separate the two; as if one is the pre-requisite of the other. This is probably why so many civilians are dead because our military cannot see a distinction either.
People do not separate sharia law from Islam, and the accused is clear.

Again here you show ignorance of the Islamic faith. Just as how Christianity has morphed into what it is today, so did Islam. Of course you are aware that the early Christians refused to fight, they would not even pick up a sword. But yet today, very few american protestant would be afraid of picking up a gun, in fact, as you well know, we have a law that says it's our right to have a right to bear arms.
Democracy without libertarian rights for the individual over the prejudices of the majority is a similar sickness.
 
Here's some interesting algebra for those that think human lives are just numbers in a math problem...

According to this source, Iraq has lost 5% of it's population of 30,000,000 as a result of the illegal invasion and occupation by the United States of America.

There is no need to hide figures about Iraqi civilian casualties. U.N. and Iraqi statistics, though much far away from reality, are more than enough to condemn the perpetrators.

Privately, Iraqi government sources say that since the U.S. invasion Iraq has lost up to 5% of its 30 million people.

It is the kind of calamity perhaps unprecedented in history.


Link here.
And according to Bush, they owe US a thank you!

Maybe because he hasn't done the math. Or can't do the math. In honor of that, let's do the math...

30,000,000 x .05(5%) = 1,500,000 Dead!

That's twice as much as the Lancet report. The big difference here is these numbers are coming from the Iraqi government!

Thank you my pro-war countryman,
for destroying the heritage of my country!
 
Here's some interesting algebra for those that think human lives are just numbers in a math problem...

According to this source, Iraq has lost 5% of it's population of 30,000,000 as a result of the illegal invasion and occupation by the United States of America.

And according to Bush, they owe US a thank you!

Maybe because he hasn't done the math. Or can't do the math. In honor of that, let's do the math...

30,000,000 x .05(5%) = 1,500,000 Dead!

That's twice as much as the Lancet report. The big difference here is these numbers are coming from the Iraqi government!

Thank you my pro-war countryman,
for destroying the heritage of my country!

1.5 million dead, when the UN just came out and said 34,000 died last year. I guess that means we have really slowed down and the war is almost over.
 
Here's some interesting algebra for those that think human lives are just numbers in a math problem...

According to this source, Iraq has lost 5% of it's population of 30,000,000 as a result of the illegal invasion and occupation by the United States of America.

And according to Bush, they owe US a thank you!

Maybe because he hasn't done the math. Or can't do the math. In honor of that, let's do the math...

30,000,000 x .05(5%) = 1,500,000 Dead!

That's twice as much as the Lancet report. The big difference here is these numbers are coming from the Iraqi government!

Thank you my pro-war countryman,
for destroying the heritage of my country!


.......Gee, Billo, what blogger did you borrow this from? There's just no end to your desperation is there? Why just a million and a half Billo? Let's pretend that our military lined up and slaughtered a trillion Iraqis (I'm sure that numbers just around the corner). Does this satisfy your deperation?

Let me get this straight. After parading around 150,000 deaths a year ago and being shown more accurate reports, you graduated to the Lancet Report. After boasting the concrete numbers of 650,000 from the honorable and trustworthy Lancet report, you were shown numbers from the UN (which you have a love affair for), the Iraqi government, and two other "independent" sources that showed a much lower number after doing the math. Your reply was to admit that "no can no the numbers." Your answer to this now is to come back with a million and a half? This Iraqi experiment is hard enough without the added drama and integrity lacking exxagerations.

Quite the trend.:roll:


By the way...your link doesn't work. But if it's what I think it is, this percentage very much involves people that have left the country. Oops. Did I spoil your party?
 
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Here's some interesting algebra for those that think human lives are just numbers in a math problem...

According to this source, Iraq has lost 5% of it's population of 30,000,000 as a result of the illegal invasion and occupation by the United States of America.

Your link doesn't say "dead". It says "lost". Your link doesn't say how many wounded or seeking refuge in another country, it says "lost". Even if your link specified "dead" instead of "lost", your link is self-serving rhetoric at its best. Its only purpose is encourage people quick to criticize US actions in Iraq - like you, Billo. The author apparently succeeded.
 
.... Those that objected to the removal of Hussein's regime on grounds of state soveriegnty (UN law) were the moral descendants of those who looked away from Hitler's crimes (and to the Middle East, he was a Hitler). ...

So that must make those who start wars based upon false premises and pretext decendents of Hitler himself.
 
So that must make those who start wars based upon false premises and pretext decendents of Hitler himself.

Is it simply anger that you hadn't the ability to see beyond the WMD focus that was presented to you? Your statement above makes absolutely no sense.

I believe Hitler was on a mission to make all of Europe a German country as he executed plans to eliminate all Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, etc. I might have missed it, but I didn't see any Muslim burning ovens or an advance of American troops across the landscape of the Middle East. How little respect you have for your country that you could oblige our critics with such irresponsibility.

My statement made perfect sense. What is the difference between an individual who would turn their backs on Hitler's murderous machine and Saddam's murderous machine?
 
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