We members of the LBGTQ community are definitely more powerful than I realized.

[btthegreat]

theres tons of support for trannies

There is, but not necessarily any among people a specific transexual knows. A black boy most likely is surrounded by some black family members with black grandparents or aunts or cousins. If he lives in an urban area with say 10% black population, then his school and neighborhood will have other blacks. Kid with gender dysphoria is very unlikely to have anyone with gender dysphoria in his family, if he has any friends with a similar issue, they are likely hiding it just as he is. If this is all happening in a conservative or red state, there likely is no support at all until much later in his life. Instead what he hears and absorbs will be messages of contempt disgust and pity. The only certain access to support is through the internet.

 

[CLAX1911]

They wouldn't have such a rate if they weren't treated so poorly by bigots.

I doubt it has to do with being treated poorly. I think this is just an excuse to ignore this extraordinarily high suicide rate which is cruelty.

I think ignoring these mental health problems that make people commit suicide over not being allowed to use a particular restroom is treating them extremely poorly

 

[CLAX1911]

no, they are mentally ill. That's why. Blacks were treated poorly and they never had that suicide rate.

Blacks were treated much more poorly even during slavery they didn't have anywhere close to that suicide rate.

This is an excuse to avoid this really profound argument against encouraging transgenderism.

Further I think it's cruel for them to ignore this for their political views.

 

[CLAX1911]

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. It is a term referring to psychological distress that occurs when a person's expected gender expression doesn't match their internal gender identity.

That describes precisely a mental disorder. It is clearly a mental disorder that leads to 41% suicide rate.

To just dismiss that as nothing to be concerned about is worse than hatred it's indifference.

The reason suicide rates are unusually high for the transgender is the same as the reason suicide rates for people suffering from depression is unusually high: They both involve a great deal of psychological distress.

Yeah that's a mental disorder. If you're having psychological distress you are experiencing a mental disorder.

Fortunately, those with gender dysphoria can be helped with treatments affirming their internal gender identity.

There isn't really any evidence to suggest that so-called treatments which aren't really treatments they're augmentations to affirm gender identity alleviates any of this.

 

[lwf]

That describes precisely a mental disorder. It is clearly a mental disorder that leads to 41% suicide rate.

To just dismiss that as nothing to be concerned about is worse than hatred it's indifference.

Yeah that's a mental disorder. If you're having psychological distress you are experiencing a mental disorder.

There isn't really any evidence to suggest that so-called treatments which aren't really treatments they're augmentations to affirm gender identity alleviates any of this.

There is ample scientific peer-reviewed evidence that gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals. The literature also indicates that greater availability of medical and social support for gender transition contributes to better quality of life for those who identify as transgender. So much so that it is an accepted treatment by the medical community. That it is somehow political or experimental is a conservative canard. It is not political, and it is not experimental. It is a long proven and accepted practice.

Hint: Medical professionals are not in the habit of doing harm to their patients or ignoring science.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061456/
https://www.psychiatry.org/newsroom...affirming-surgery-for-transgender-individuals
https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/gender-affirming-care-saves-lives
https://www.apa.org/news/press/op-eds/science-gender-affirmation
https://whatweknow.inequality.corne...y-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
https://fenwayhealth.org/new-study-...-psychological-distress-or-suicidal-ideation/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/heal...tion-confirmation-or-sex-reassignment-surgery
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/overview

 

[buck]

There is ample scientific peer-reviewed evidence that gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals. The literature also indicates that greater availability of medical and social support for gender transition contributes to better quality of life for those who identify as transgender. So much so that it is an accepted treatment by the medical community. That it is somehow political or experimental is a conservative canard. It is not political, and it is not experimental. It is a long proven and accepted practice.

Hint: Medical professionals are not in the habit of doing harm to their patients or ignoring science.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061456/
https://www.psychiatry.org/newsroom...affirming-surgery-for-transgender-individuals
https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/gender-affirming-care-saves-lives
https://www.apa.org/news/press/op-eds/science-gender-affirmation
https://whatweknow.inequality.corne...y-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
https://fenwayhealth.org/new-study-...-psychological-distress-or-suicidal-ideation/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/heal...tion-confirmation-or-sex-reassignment-surgery
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/overview

You posted a lot of links. Only a couple of studies, though. One study, tordoff, seems to support your claim... though, I do have some questions on the large percentage that didn't participate / lost to follow up and the short term nature of it. Other studies have found much higher time frames to regret than just one year.

The other study you provided, they had to change their initial conclusion. I posted it just a short time ago. No benefit to health or suicide.

While this comparison was performed retrospectively and was not part of the original research question given that several other factors may differ between the groups, the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.

Given that the study used neither a prospective cohort design nor a randomized controlled trial design, the conclusion that “the longitudinal association between gender-affirming surgery and lower use of mental health treatment lends support to the decision to provide gender-affirming surgeries to transgender individuals who seek them” is too strong.

 

[CLAX1911]

There is ample scientific peer-reviewed evidence that gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals.

Not really no. In order to determine whether or not someone is better after the transition you have to follow them through it and most of these just don't have a very good sample size.

So sorry that typically speaking you can't make that conclusion

The literature also indicates that greater availability of medical and social support for gender transition contributes to better quality of life for those who identify as transgender. So much so that it is an accepted treatment by the medical community. That it is somehow political or experimental is a conservative canard. It is not political, and it is not experimental. It is a long proven and accepted practice.

I don't think politics are really part of someone's emotional well-being.

Hint: Medical professionals are not in the habit of doing harm to their patients or ignoring science.

Debatable.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061456/
https://www.psychiatry.org/newsroom...affirming-surgery-for-transgender-individuals
https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/gender-affirming-care-saves-lives
https://www.apa.org/news/press/op-eds/science-gender-affirmation
https://whatweknow.inequality.corne...y-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
https://fenwayhealth.org/new-study-...-psychological-distress-or-suicidal-ideation/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/heal...tion-confirmation-or-sex-reassignment-surgery
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/overview

 

[TypicalRussian]

Blacks were treated much more poorly even during slavery they didn't have anywhere close to that suicide rate.

This is an excuse to avoid this really profound argument against encouraging transgenderism.

Further I think it's cruel for them to ignore this for their political views.

very true

 

[TypicalRussian]

There is, but not necessarily any among people a specific transexual knows. A black boy most likely is surrounded by some black family members with black grandparents or aunts or cousins. If he lives in an urban area with say 10% black population, then his school and neighborhood will have other blacks. Kid with gender dysphoria is very unlikely to have anyone with gender dysphoria in his family, if he has any friends with a similar issue, they are likely hiding it just as he is. If this is all happening in a conservative or red state, there likely is no support at all until much later in his life. Instead what he hears and absorbs will be messages of contempt disgust and pity. The only certain access to support is through the internet.

but doctors, support groups, etc, are all there. why then is there a 40% suicide rate?

 

[TypicalRussian]

Even if they are why do you care?

because I want to help them. You will never be a woman

 

[Hamish Howl]

because I want to help them. You will never be a woman

Ever consider the idea that nobody wants your ****ing help?

Just asking.

 

[TypicalRussian]

Ever consider the idea that nobody wants your ****ing help?

Just asking.

there loss then. Because there is a 40% chance that they kill themselves.

 

[Hamish Howl]

there loss then. Because there is a 40% chance that they kill themselves.

Apparently they prefer that over your help.

 

[Bodi]

because I want to help them. You will never be a woman

except I was born one...

 

[btthegreat]

but doctors, support groups, etc, are all there. why then is there a 40% suicide rate?

You are thinking like an adult, when you need to look at this through the lens of someone younger - 10 years old, 12 years old, 15 years old, 17 years old . The seeds of these cycles of depression and self worth issues predate a kid's independent access to a 'support groups'. Doctors appointments are set up by parents. You are clearly not reading my posts because the answers to these questions are pretty obvious between Post #20 and Post # 51 with a little common sense. Now reread those two posts and start thinking like a kid who is surrounded by people who think like you do.

 

[Phys251]

There is ample scientific peer-reviewed evidence that gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals. The literature also indicates that greater availability of medical and social support for gender transition contributes to better quality of life for those who identify as transgender. So much so that it is an accepted treatment by the medical community. That it is somehow political or experimental is a conservative canard. It is not political, and it is not experimental. It is a long proven and accepted practice.

Hint: Medical professionals are not in the habit of doing harm to their patients or ignoring science.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061456/
https://www.psychiatry.org/newsroom...affirming-surgery-for-transgender-individuals
https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/gender-affirming-care-saves-lives
https://www.apa.org/news/press/op-eds/science-gender-affirmation
https://whatweknow.inequality.corne...y-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
https://fenwayhealth.org/new-study-...-psychological-distress-or-suicidal-ideation/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/heal...tion-confirmation-or-sex-reassignment-surgery
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/overview

Great post, and it's not surprising to see people who are on the anti-trans side refuse to accept it.

Hormone therapy is a wonderful tool for some youth. Which ones should be determined by compassionate, evidence-based care, not by transphobes who don't have the slightest understanding of gender dysphoria.

 

[Phys251]

there loss then. Because there is a 40% chance that they kill themselves.

Maybe they believe that crap in Russia, but in America, we know better than to believe those unsubstantiated lies.

 

[lwf]

Great post, and it's not surprising to see people who are on the anti-trans side refuse to accept it.

Hormone therapy is a wonderful tool for some youth. Which ones should be determined by compassionate, evidence-based care, not by transphobes who don't have the slightest understanding of gender dysphoria.

There is a sad tendency for "conservatives" to trust more in self-proclaimed authorities that look, act, and claim to think like they do over actual peer-reviewed, empirical, and verifiable science. When you throw science by the wayside and join a "team," you are on the road to authoritarianism.

 

[CLAX1911]

except I was born one...

Isn't that just the ultimate form of misogyny. A human adult female isn't a woman but some 50-year-old that just decides he's a woman one day is more of a woman than you'll ever be.

Aren't you allowed to do whatever they want.

So if I want to engage in toxic masculinity or interrupt women and talk over them without being scolded for the Little women all I have to do is identify as a woman and then it's all okay.

 

[CLAX1911]

There is a sad tendency for "conservatives" to trust more in self-proclaimed authorities that look, act, and claim to think like they do over actual peer-reviewed, empirical, and verifiable science. When you throw science by the wayside and join a "team," you are on the road to authoritarianism.

Focusing on incomplete and bad science says though it's gospel truth is a religion called science-ism and it isn't science.

So when you say study say and then post your opinion consider the studies that say otherwise and why are you ignoring them?

 

[Phys251]

There is a sad tendency for "conservatives" to trust more in self-proclaimed authorities that look, act, and claim to think like they do over actual peer-reviewed, empirical, and verifiable science. When you throw science by the wayside and join a "team," you are on the road to authoritarianism.

A good reason why their right-wing extremism must be checked.

 

[lwf]

Focusing on incomplete and bad science says though it's gospel truth is a religion called science-ism and it isn't science.

So when you say study say and then post your opinion consider the studies that say otherwise and why are you ignoring them?

I follow the consensus of the scientific and the medical community, which proves that gender affirmation treatment is a viable treatment for gender dysphoria. Pointing out a study that ignores gender affirmation treatment and focuses solely on elective surgery doesn't change the science, and elective gender transitioning surgery is not being performed on anyone without their consent anyway, much less children.

Gender affirmation treatment works. That is why it is being prescribed by doctors for gender dysphoria. The science supports this. Elective surgery is elective, works in some cases and not others, and is not being prescribed as medical treatments by doctors. Doctors don't prescribe rhinoplasty to treat depression, and they similarly don't prescribe vaginoplasty to treat gender dysphoria. That doesn't mean either should be outlawed, but we aren't talking about gender affirmation treatment here. We are talking about elective surgery alone. And, while I can't believe I have to say this again, medical professionals are not in the habit of doing harm to their patients.

 

[CLAX1911]

I follow the consensus of the scientific and the medical community,

No you don't because there isn't consensus there really is on anything.

Scientific consensus is a fairy tale.

which proves

Consensus that only exists in the imagination of people who want to be right doesn't prove anything.

If you found scientific consensus that the Earth was flat it wouldn't make it flat

that gender affirmation treatment is a viable treatment for gender dysphoria.

There's no consensus on that there's no evidence for it there's nothing.

It's just wishful thinking

Pointing out a study that ignores gender affirmation treatment and focuses solely on elective surgery doesn't change the science, and elective gender transitioning surgery is not being performed on anyone without their consent anyway, much less children.

You don't care about science you care about imagining consensus which doesn't exist.

You just say science and medical and a few other words to try and make your specious argument sound valid

Gender affirmation treatment works.

Sounds like you're trying to convince yourself.

Redemption I go by the actual science not imaginary consensus and it says that can't be determined

That is why it is being prescribed by doctors for gender dysphoria. The science supports this. Elective surgery is elective, works in some cases and not others, and is not being prescribed as medical treatments by doctors. Doctors don't prescribe rhinoplasty to treat depression, and they similarly don't prescribe vaginoplasty to treat gender dysphoria. That doesn't mean either should be outlawed, but we aren't talking about gender affirmation treatment here. We are talking about elective surgery alone. And, while I can't believe I have to say this again, medical professionals are not in the habit of doing harm to their patients.

You keep saying this over and over again it's like you're trying to convince yourself.

It's not an argument

 

[lwf]

No you don't because there isn't consensus there really is on anything.

Scientific consensus is a fairy tale.

Consensus that only exists in the imagination of people who want to be right doesn't prove anything.

If you found scientific consensus that the Earth was flat it wouldn't make it flat

There's no consensus on that there's no evidence for it there's nothing.

It's just wishful thinking

You don't care about science you care about imagining consensus which doesn't exist.

You just say science and medical and a few other words to try and make your specious argument sound valid

Sounds like you're trying to convince yourself.

Redemption I go by the actual science not imaginary consensus and it says that can't be determined

You keep saying this over and over again it's like you're trying to convince yourself.

It's not an argument

Cutting up your opponent's argument in order to take each sentence, (or sentence fragment) out of context certainly makes it easier to make it look like you have refuted something, but you haven't.

Proof has been supplied. You response was to simply ignore it and say "not really."

Once again I'm left to reassure you that you are welcome to ignore science and to ignore reality and believe whatever you want to believe. But just know that honest people base their beliefs on peer-reviewed science and medical consensus, and the peer-reviewed consensus is that gender affirming therapy is the proper way to treat gender dysphoria. That's why it's in the DSM and recommended by the American Psychiatric Association.

 

[CLAX1911]

Cutting up your opponent's argument in order to take each sentence, (or sentence fragment) out of context certainly makes it easier to make it look like you have refuted something, but you haven't.

You're whining about me addressing your points individually I didn't take it out of context you're relying on consensus. There isn't any consensus. If there was there wouldn't be any disagreement at all about the subject in the academic field and there is.

I think you're just whining about me addressing each point because I made a good argument

Proof has been supplied. You response was to simply ignore it and say "not really."

No it hasn't. You have to address all of the science that disagrees with your opinion and tell me why it's all wrong if you want to supply proof.

What you really need to say is what convinces you has been supplied. I'm not as easily convinced

Once again I'm left to reassure you that you are welcome to ignore science and to ignore reality and believe whatever you want to believe.

You are ignoring science all science that falls outside of your imaginary consensus. That's why you think first of that consensus is a real thing and that it's science. It's so you don't have to address the reality and the science

But just know that honest people base their beliefs on peer-reviewed science and medical consensus, and the peer-reviewed consensus is that gender affirming therapy is the proper way to treat gender dysphoria. That's why it's in the DSM and recommended by the American Psychiatric Association.

Honest people don't lie about consensus. Dishonest people have to do that to pretend like their position is factual.