We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:105]

[Ikari]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

It is not religion, it is fanatical religion. Or to be accurate, fanatical anything.

Any time fanaticism enters the picture, common sense and respect for others starts to go out the window. It can be for things like the environment, religion, poverty, wealth, abortion, race, creation of a fantasy nation, just about anything.

Christianity does not make people try to blow up abortion clinics. But fanatical beliefs of "saving babies" may cause some to do that.

Belief in opposition to monarchy does not make somebody throw bombs at family of the ruling family. But a radical belief in no government can cause that to happen.

People can go out and live in the woods and be one with nature all they want. That does not make them try to burn down car lots and housing subdivisions.

The problem is not the cause in itself, it is the fanaticism that causes people to think that their cause if so dominant that they have the right to force others to comply with their beliefs "or else".

Very true. Anything can be militarized, there's violent sects of Buddhists as well. It sucks, but we humans can turn anything violent if we want to. The base religion is not to blame, and there can be a lot of good that comes from it. It's the application, it's the radicalization and usurpation of the religion/ideology/philosophy for propaganda means that is to blame.

 

[apdst]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

What caused that? That's what I'm asking- not what happened, but why did it happen.

It's happening because of the 1,400 year old tradition of violence that exists within Islam. I agree with everything Vesper said in his post, except that the extremism has been building for centuries, not decades.

 

[vesper]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

What caused that? That's what I'm asking- not what happened, but why did it happen.

Why does any extremism occur in religion tuhaybey? When religious/political ideology mixed is used for political power or material gain. While claiming their actions are justified in the name of their God, it reeks of hypocrisy in what they claim their god teaches.

 

[tuhaybey]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

Why does any extremism occur in religion tuhaybey? When religious/political ideology mixed is used for political power or material gain. While claiming their actions are justified in the name of their God, it reeks of hypocrisy in what they claim their god teaches.

So you seem to be saying that you don't know why it happens, right?

Well, that's fair. Nobody really knows for a fact and there is no simple answer. Poverty certainly appears to often play a part. People who are at the brink of desperation make easier pray for this kind of thing. The historical cycle of violence certainly also often plays a part- if your daughter, for example, gets blown up by a drone strike for no apparent reason or your neighbor gets tortured despite having nothing to do with anything violent, you become radically more likely to adopt extremist views. Some of it is just that a certain percentage of people are prone to that kind of thing and in countries with less firm policing and social structures, there is less to prevent them from banding together.

 

[Fenton]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

No, its a sexist comment and really disgusting. I don't care who it is.

Whats really disgusting are the post that TRY to validate her ridiculous comments.

As if this Government ( Obama administration ) or ANY administration could offer up economic solutions on the other side of the planet.

The Obama administration can't even figure out to create jobs HERE, in AMERICA.

 

[Fenton]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

Consider the Lord's Resistance Army (LRA): Kony's radical Christian force in Uganda and surrounding countries. At its peak, it controlled territory roughly as big as the territory controlled by ISIS and had membership just slightly smaller than ISIS. It massacred significantly more people than ISIS has and drove more than 2 million people from their homes. It engaged in practices such as forcing family members to rape, kill and then eat one another. It used mass displays of desecrated remains on a scale that would make ISIS blush to spread fear. Ritualized killings far more graphic than beheadings were commonplace under the LRA's reign of terror. It enslaved tens of thousands of people and used hundreds of children as sex slaves. All in the name of Kony's severely distorted version of Christianity.

That didn't happen 300 years ago. It started happening 11 years ago and still is going on today to a lesser extent.

This sort of thing is not unique to Islam and ordinary Muslims are no more culpable for the atrocities of ISIS than ordinary Christians are responsible for the atrocities of the LRA.

There are literally hundreds of examples of extremist, hyper-violent organizations throughout history and only a small fraction have been Muslim. They come from every religion and every continent. We have done similar things to blacks and Native Americans on a much larger scale even in our own history right here in the US and our atrocities were just as wrapped in the cloak of Christianity as ISIS's are wrapped in the cloak of Islam.

The problem is not Islam. It isn't just poverty either, but certainly poverty and abject disempowerment provide one sort of fertile ground that can enable madmen like Kony and Baghdadi to engineer these kinds of horrific atrocities. People who see their children starve before their eyes are easy prey for men like that to warp into monsters. People who feel that they have no power even over their own lives can be manipulated into killers with the promise of power and a place in history. It is complicated stuff and the kneejerk reaction that we shouldn't talk about the complex network of causes for fear that it might lessen the simplicity of our denunciation of their practices is a big part of why we have done such a poor job of weakening those causes.

Yes it's so "complicated " that we cannot call it out for what it is. Islamo-fascism and Islamo-terror. That might hurt someone's feelings.

So the outright murder of innocence needs to continue. We need to provide these low life sub-human animals good jobs with strong Union representation !

ISIS is laughing in Obama's and America's face right now as they continue to terrorize anyone who doesn't believe the way they believe.

 

[vesper]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

So you seem to be saying that you don't know why it happens, right?

Well, that's fair. Nobody really knows for a fact and there is no simple answer. Poverty certainly appears to often play a part. People who are at the brink of desperation make easier pray for this kind of thing. The historical cycle of violence certainly also often plays a part- if your daughter, for example, gets blown up by a drone strike for no apparent reason or your neighbor gets tortured despite having nothing to do with anything violent, you become radically more likely to adopt extremist views. Some of it is just that a certain percentage of people are prone to that kind of thing and in countries with less firm policing and social structures, there is less to prevent them from banding together.

No not everyone seems to be on the brink to make easier pray due to poverty. Take the Coptic Christians that were beheaded in Libya. They happened to come from one of the poorest provinces in Egypt. Take the Jews fleeing Russia over the past decade due to poverty placed on them through policies from the Russian government. Neither group used poverty as an excuse to engage in such heinous behavior as an excuse to mistreat fellow human beings in the manner in which Isis is willing to do. So your opinion is based on bull **** just like the current administration that fails to recognize the true problems.

 

[Grant]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

So you seem to be saying that you don't know why it happens, right?

Well, that's fair. Nobody really knows for a fact and there is no simple answer. Poverty certainly appears to often play a part. People who are at the brink of desperation make easier pray for this kind of thing. The historical cycle of violence certainly also often plays a part- if your daughter, for example, gets blown up by a drone strike for no apparent reason or your neighbor gets tortured despite having nothing to do with anything violent, you become radically more likely to adopt extremist views. Some of it is just that a certain percentage of people are prone to that kind of thing and in countries with less firm policing and social structures, there is less to prevent them from banding together.

Poverty plays no part in what's happening. Absolutely none!

There are poor people throughout the world who are not chopping off heads, deliberately burning others to death or shooting children for watching a football match. It is an ignorance so profound that it remains inexplicable to the western mind, to Atheists, to Jews, to Christians and to people of all religions. With one exception

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

Already debunked many times.

That's great.

Because if what I am saying and references through multiple sources has been debunked, then you can prove what you are claiming!

So come on, debunk me. You say it is debunked, then prove it to me. I provided references to back the assertion that poverty has nothing to do with it, you say I am wrong. Then prove it.

And sorry, you saying you do not believe it is not "proof".

ISIS is a rebel group, not a country (even if they say they are).

The Sons of Liberty were a rebel group, not a country.

But look at what they ultimately made.

ISIS exists not because Iraq is a 'democratic republic' but because of the chaos that exists in the region (thanks to your buddy Bush).

Sorry, that region has been in chaos for well over 2,000 years. The problems go well back before the last President was even born, so you can't go that way.

Dictatorships certainly try to stamp out terrorist organizations opposed to them (though they still show up) but prop up terrorist groups that benefit them.

No, actually they work to stomp out all terrorist groups in their country. Period.

If they do decide to prop up terrorist groups (which actually very few really do), they prop them up in other countries. Palestine and Lebanon were cesspools of chaos for the last 4+ decades because of money sent there from other countries. Dictators like that because it lets them find an outlet for their disaffected outside of their own country.

And Dictators also do not "try to stamp out" terrorist groups in their country, they try to completely crush them.

Wow, it always amazes me how little most people understand about how the world really works.

But what is a more likely scenario: a young man joining a terrorist group when he has the right to vote, petitition, and speak out... or a young man joining a terrorist group when he has no rights whatsoever and is consistently oppressed?

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

Very true. Anything can be militarized, there's violent sects of Buddhists as well. It sucks, but we humans can turn anything violent if we want to. The base religion is not to blame, and there can be a lot of good that comes from it. It's the application, it's the radicalization and usurpation of the religion/ideology/philosophy for propaganda means that is to blame.

The funny thing is that as often as we disagree, we also often agree.

I see nothing really as being "bad" as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others and society in general.

And yea, any philosophy or religion can be bad when taken to fanatical levels.

In fact, there is one thing I readily admit I am fanatical about. And it may sound like an oxymoron, but it really makes sense to a lot of people as well.

Myself, I am a fanatical pacifist. I believe so strongly in people trying to settle their differences peacefully that I have absolutely no problem beating the crap out of a nation or country that refuses to recognize the rights of others. Most especially the rights of others to live. To me, if there needs to be a war I am not one to *****foot around and drag it out in any way.

Dragging out conflicts only ensures that the misery lasts longer and ultimately more people die. If there must be conflict, to me it should be as fast, violent, and painful to the oppressors as possible, so that they (and others) hopefully learn the lesson that it is not to be tolerated. Cambodia, Darfur, ISIS, Lebanon, Saddam era Iraq, the lists of conflicts drug out by namby-pamby diplomats and peacenicks has ultimately ensured that even more people die in the end.

Myself, I think we need to go into Iraq and Syria with a coalition and a giant sledgehammer. These individuals are not an Army, they are not a Country, they do not recognize any of the laws of land warfare. Now that does not mean that we can simply ignore them, but it does make changes in how individuals can be treated in those situations.

Interesting thing about knowing the Laws of Land Warfare, such as the Geneva Conventions and the Hague Conventions. And that is understanding the classifications.

Technically, unless an individual who is opposing you actually surrenders, they are not a POW. 100% legally under International Law, if they are wounded and still fighting back, it is perfectly acceptable and legal to simply shoot them dead and move on, or leave them in place until they die or surrender. We however will actually do all we can to save them. Also, we do not have to take such individuals to be tried in our own courts. We can try them right where they are under a competent tribunal and it is perfectly legal under all international treaties and conventions.

Myself, if I was President, things would be so different, but still legal.

Form a multi-national coalition, with Iraq being the senior partner, as well as Jordan and Syria if they are willing to work together. If not, then to hell with them do it without them.

Ground and air war, pushing ISIS west. Take prisoners if they surrender, but do not bother if they continue to resist. If they want to fight to the death, so be it. They can die in their bunkers and trenches and we can then use them as their tombs. Behind have the International Red Crescent send in investigators and forensic experts, to collect as much evidence as possible.

Push them to the Syrian Border if Syria does not join in. So long as we do not cross over, they can then deal with the remaining mess themselves as far as I am concerned. The remainders that are captured screened as quickly as possible for any possible war crimes. And just like after WWII, quickly convene an international tribunal following Iraq justice codes to deal with the crimes committed in Iraq. No games, no 5+ year sitting in jail for bullcrap reasons. Have the trials, have the appeals, have the sentences.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

Poverty plays no part in what's happening. Absolutely none!

I have basically given up on this individual to be honest.

One moment they say it is a proven fact. Then when you demand that proof they scream that it is impossible to prove. Then they will turn right around again and say that your claims are "debunked". I mean really, are we dealing with little children here? A thing can not be debunked unless it is proven wrong. And tuhaybey is unable to prove a single thing.

And BTW rejects any references provided with fingers in ears and head in sand.

 

[NeverTrump]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

Retarded on so many levels, but what can you expect from Obama and his class of grade-schoolers filling the ranks of his administration. A few points:

Jobs... They can't create jobs here.

Root cause? That book and religion they follow.

Yes We Can... kill them into submission.

This is the fruit of Demokrat efforts. For years they pissed on the country, they pissed on our efforts to defeat terrorism, and they pulled out prematurely... sending a signal to the terrorists that it's Open Season.

A dumber bunch of rocks you cannot find than Obama's niave followers. Dumb, and dangerous, for they have enabled the idiot at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

This is the dumbest thing I have heard from this administration, ever.

 

[DA60]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

 

[Bodi]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

So then the Bible and Christianity are the root causes of the IRA?

Let me help you with something... the IRA is not a Christian army conducting a Christian war. :roll:

 

[Bodi]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

This is one of the most stupid things that I have ever heard an educated person/people say...

...add to that the insult that it is to all the poor people of the world not running around beheading people for lack of a job.

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

No lol, I'm attacking bigotry and right wing outlooks regardless of whether they are practiced by Christians or Muslims. Pay attention.

Another liberal attack on religion has been noted; indicative of bigotry and hypocrisy.

 

[sawdust]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

Yes we are. We're providing support to the nations in the region who need to win this fight for themselves, not have the Great Satan come trampling in again. We're going after their leaders, not the poor dumb schlubs who got suckered into a life of hate at a young age.



This isn't the same level of conflict as invading Iraq. Ok. So you want more airstrikes. Just say that. "I think we should step up our air support." Quit acting like this is some fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives.



We can absolutely do both. She didn't outline any particular program, you're picturing some caricature of a liberal policy and hating it. Of course you're hating it, it's a liberal program you invented for the purpose of hating. Go back and see what she actually said. Improving governance. Opportunity for jobs, not creating the jobs for them.

First, we don't have the intelligence on the ground to surgically strike at ISIS leaders. Calling our air campaign ineffective is kind. It's impossible to have more air strikes because of our premature pull out of Iraq and the loss of intelligence. Quit acting like we are doing anything meaningful to fight ISIS when we are not.

Obama is treating the jihadis as if he's still a community organizer, which I wish was his current occupation. This is a country at war and we can't go into the country with a battalion of sociologists to straighten out their society. That's just psychobabble. What we have to do is take back the territory that ISIS has gained, kill as many as possible and make sure their losses are so dramatic that the romance of joining a loosing cause is unappealing to the uneducated and impoverished.

Haven't we already learned the lesson that nation building is a fools errand?

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

Haven't we already learned the lesson that nation building is a fools errand?

It is not that "nation building" is a fools errand, it is the type of nation that was built.

You can not take a country that for hundreds of years has known nothing but occupation and dictatorships. Especially when the last dictator was as cruel and brutal as the last one in Iraq was. The biggest idiocy was in trying to create a form of government that has never worked in a Muslim nation. It was as doomed to failure as the Iraqi Republic was in the late 1960's.

In that region of the world, "Democracy" is generally another word for "chaos" and "mob rule". It was doomed to failure, but failure is never a surprise coming from the State Department.

 

[sawdust]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

It is not that "nation building" is a fools errand, it is the type of nation that was built.

You can not take a country that for hundreds of years has known nothing but occupation and dictatorships. Especially when the last dictator was as cruel and brutal as the last one in Iraq was. The biggest idiocy was in trying to create a form of government that has never worked in a Muslim nation. It was as doomed to failure as the Iraqi Republic was in the late 1960's.

In that region of the world, "Democracy" is generally another word for "chaos" and "mob rule". It was doomed to failure, but failure is never a surprise coming from the State Department.

True enough but can you imagine the US trying to build a theocracy in the Middle East? I can imagine an idiocracy because we have some recent experience in that. It's too late but we should never participated in the removal of the existing dictators.

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

I mean, this isn't math. We can't prove x% wouldn't have taken up terrorism if not for this or that. But still we need to act.

It seems utterly obvious that poverty plays a central role. Terrorism still exists in wealthy countries, but is significantly less common. The rage and justification that poverty and inequality create are dramatic.

I dunno man. Honestly, I'm surprised that you guys didn't already think this. I was under the impression that everybody agreed that poverty was a major factor in terrorism all along.

How do you make yourself believe that :bs?

A more interesting and definitely more surprising study is the often-quoted work of Alan Krueger and Jitka Malečková entitled “Education, Poverty and Terrorism: Is There a Causal Connection?” (2003). Based on, among other factors, public opinion polls, Krueger and Malečková refute the existence of a causal link between low education or poverty and terrorism in Israel/Palestine and Lebanon, discovering that “any connection between poverty, education and terrorism is indirect, complicated and probably quite weak” (2003: 120).

Moreover, the study ascertains that the level of education of individuals involved in terrorism in these areas is somewhat higher than average. Additionally, the background of suicide terrorists covers all socio-economic layers of society, further reiterating that “economic theory is unlikely to give a very convincing answer ... as to whether poverty or low education are important root causes of terrorism” (2003: 123).

http://www.transnationalterrorism.eu/tekst/publications/WP3 Del 5.pdf

 

[bubbabgone]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

Not according to us, the US. Legitimate? No. None the less, they're area of control and their functioning within it meets the definition of a country, whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not.

Poverty doesn't cause the violence we are seeing.

You' re right, of course.
And have you noticed nobody had the cubes to say such stupid things until it was clear that's where the Obama Admin was going?
Now they all eat the LIV bait.

 

[bubbabgone]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

How do you make yourself believe that :bs?

Because they're obedient little boys & girls who repeat what they're told when they're told.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

True enough but can you imagine the US trying to build a theocracy in the Middle East? I can imagine an idiocracy because we have some recent experience in that. It's too late but we should never participated in the removal of the existing dictators.

How about a return of the Hashemite Dynasty and a Constitutional Monarchy, in the mold of say England?

The Hashemite Dynasty was not unpopular, it fell because of an internal coup not popular unrest. A restoration of the Monarchy under a Constitutional Parliamentary Republic would have created a stable government which then could take the time needed to restore stability and unity to the nation.

Notice that the most stable Islamic nations in the Persian Gulf region are all Monarchies. Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE, and on and on. Just so that the government is answerable to the people and is not oppressive why should we care what form it takes?

And we should have done the same thing in Afghanistan. A President will never unite a people in the same way that a King can. Presidents come and go, are transitory, and ultimately often make little difference. A truly wise monarch on the other hand is remembered for generations. Most people can not name more then a handful of British monarchs for example. But mention "Elizabethan" and "Victorian" England and immediately most will think of new eras in the arts and sciences. Enlightenment, progress, culture.

That is not really possible under a President (other then maybe 1). Can you imagine somebody trying to seriously discuss "Clevelandian era US society"?

 

[Deuce]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

This is one of the most stupid things that I have ever heard an educated person/people say...

...add to that the insult that it is to all the poor people of the world not running around beheading people for lack of a job.

No, it's not.

You didn't hear what she said. You let some website pick out one sentence and assumed that was it.

 

[Bodi]

Re: We Can't Kill Our Way Out': State Dept Cites 'Lack of Jobs' for Rise of ISIS[W:10

No, it's not.

You didn't hear what she said. You let some website pick out one sentence and assumed that was it.

I watched the whole interview...