Wasn't it obvious? As of today US will lose a serious war.

[Jredbaron96]

Maybe because the Russians don’t actually want an incident with Israel.

Given that its Russian Air defense systems being used by Syrian crews with Russian advisers, that is a poor counter argument. Try again.

 

[Questerr]

Are you really suggesting that the differences are so stark they can't be compared?

Yes. Totally different avionics, radar, different skin, etc. Basically everything beyond the structure and engines is different on the Israeli model.

It would be like comparing the F-15C and the F-15I. They aren't the same aircraft.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Yes. Totally different avionics, radar, different skin, etc. Basically everything beyond the structure and engines is different on the Israeli model.

And you expect the American versions to be...worse?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Given that its Russian Air defense systems being used by Syrian crews with Russian advisers, that is a poor counter argument. Try again.

I don’t see how that refutes my argument. Putin is not particularly hostile to Israel. If Russia tells Syria they can only do the bare minimum for appearances Assad has no choice, he is literally only in power because of Russia

 

[Questerr]

And you expect the American versions to be...worse?

Given the history of American versions compared with Israeli, yes. Israeli versions aren't built by contractors for whom massive debilitating flaws just mean more profits later because they also get paid to fix them.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

And you expect the American versions to be...worse?

It’s not impossible. American allies with money and with need for fewer weapons often get better versions. The Kidd Class destroyers ordered by the Shah of Iran before his downfall were objectively superior to every ship the Navy had other then Ticonderoga cruisers. We had no destroyers as powerful.

Kidd-class destroyer - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Jredbaron96]

Given the history of American versions compared with Israeli, yes.

So you don't actually have any proof, you're just assuming so.

Frankly the F-35 hate has just gotten pretty pedantic by now. I'm not even a fan boy but the fact that the users of the F-35 have not shared any of these complaints is a pretty clear indicator that the aircraft is not bad.

 

[Jredbaron96]

I don’t see how that refutes my argument.

Because the Syrians have been trying to keep the Israelis from out of their airspace and they haven't failed for lack of effort.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

So you don't actually have any proof, you're just assuming so.

Frankly the F-35 hate has just gotten pretty pedantic by now. I'm not even a fan boy but the fact that the users of the F-35 have not shared any of these complaints is a pretty clear indicator that the aircraft is not bad.

It may not be “bad” it merely needs to be bad enough that it can be downed by Russian/Chinese weapons. It doesn’t even need to have a negative KDR. If three Mig-29s can ambush one and down it with one mig surviving that’s good enough for China and Russia.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Because the Syrians have been trying to keep the Israelis from out of their airspace and they haven't failed for lack of effort.

You don’t know that. If Russia doesn’t want the world to see just how effective their weapons are and is doesn’t care if Assad can’t keep Israel out they can have Assad by the neck.

plus the weapons are not being manned by Russian crews who have trained with the system more thoroughly they will not obtain the same results. Iraq had all kinds of American weapons and in 2014 they all seemed to be flying ISIS flags

I think fully integrated Russian batteries manned by Russian crews would have devastating kills on Israelis. But Russia is not very cold with Israel. Not friendly either, but they’re close enough they don’t want to create problems there. Many Russian citizens live in Israel and there’s regular trade, Putin is himself more in favor of Israel then the American left

 

[Jredbaron96]

. If three Mig-29s can ambush one and down it with one mig surviving that’s good enough for China and Russia.

Except the US can outproduce anyone in aircraft, so that's a nonargument. The Russians have managed only handfuls of their latest aircraft models and Chinese pilots are outclassed by their American counterparts.

There's not an air force on this earth that can manage the US when it comes to air operations.

 

[Jredbaron96]

You don’t know that. If Russia doesn’t want the world to see just how effective their weapons are and is doesn’t care if Assad can’t keep Israel out they can have Assad by the neck.

If the Russians had neutralizes stealth capabilities they would be screaming it from the roof. Instead your claims are backed by one off comments from anonymous blogs while the actual Russian MoD goes out of its way to develop stealth aircraft.

.

Iraq had all kinds of American weapons and in 2014 they all seemed to be flying ISIS flags

Yes, because Iraqi troops are of God awful quality.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Except the US can outproduce anyone in aircraft, so that's a nonargument. The Russians have managed only handfuls of their latest aircraft models and Chinese pilots are outclassed by their American counterparts.

There's not an air force on this earth that can manage the US when it comes to air operations.

They don’t need to. America is vastly overextended, politically divided, and geographically distant. Any fights between F-35s and Migs will be in Russian territory with full AWAC support, within the umbrella of Russian anti-aircraft weapons, and the economic impacts to Europe from a war will lead to our allies wanting a negotiated settlement.

Russia has no delusions of launching a red dawn style invasion of America.

if we went to war with Russia we can’t just shift all our assets to Europe because Russia is in the Pacific with North Korea and China. If we look weak there then it’s not out of imagination to imagine China or NK would try a military solution while we’re occupied

 

[Jredbaron96]

They don’t need to. America is vastly overextended, politically divided, and geographically distant.

Lol

Russian Air defenses can't track stealth aircraft, which means that Russias vaunted IADS will be playing catch up the entire time. Your obsession with Russia aside, not even Moscow believes your ridiculous claims.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Lol

Russian Air defenses can't track stealth aircraft, which means that Russias vaunted IADS will be playing catch up the entire time. Your obsession with Russia aside, not even Moscow believes your ridiculous claims.

I don’t pretend to know what Moscow believes.
You apparently believe you do, but I have no reason to believe you.

I can be fairly certain though that Germany and Norway and France don’t want a war with Russia, and Poland and Finland aren’t interested either except to defend their own sovereignty.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

If the Russians had neutralizes stealth capabilities they would be screaming it from the roof. Instead your claims are backed by one off comments from anonymous blogs while the actual Russian MoD goes out of its way to develop stealth aircraft.

.

Yes, because Iraqi troops are of God awful quality.

Russia can detect stealth aircraft, long wavelength radar does that quite well, it is just that long wavelength radar is not good at providing weapons lock for missiles.

Stealth has a role, but it is not the end all of fighter jets, one reason the US bought a bunch of F15 ex jets recently

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Russia can detect stealth aircraft, long wavelength radar does that quite well, it is just that long wavelength radar is not good at providing weapons lock for missiles.

Stealth has a role, but it is not the end all of fighter jets, one reason the US bought a bunch of F15 ex jets recently

Serbia downed an F-117

however if you can roughly track a stealth plane then that plane can’t linger over Russian area because then it can track well enough to make AAA deadly

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Serbia downed an F-117

however if you can roughly track a stealth plane then that plane can’t linger over Russian area because then it can track well enough to make AAA deadly

From what I have read

Using multiple receivers for the long wavelength radar Russia and China can pick up stealth planes fairly easily and their location within a mile or so.

If missiles can and if they can’t right now I expect they will in the future, be launched using general location data from the long wavelength radar, then use short wavelength radar to achieve target lock when within the range it works.

People forget that stealth does not mean invisible to radar it just typically reduces the detection range, 10 miles vs 30.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Russia can detect stealth aircraft, long wavelength radar does that quite well, it is just that long wavelength radar is not good at providing weapons lock for missiles.

Long wavelength radar is, by no means, a silver bullet for stealth. Not only does it take an exceptionally well trained crew to do identify the aircraft, it's useless for targeting and tracking.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Long wavelength radar is, by no means, a silver bullet for stealth.

Of course not, it allows for detection but is not accurate enough for weapons locked.


It certainly can be used to direct aircraft to the stealth craft. I expect in the future it will be enough to direct missiles to the area and obtain weapons lock during flight

 

[Jredbaron96]

I don’t pretend to know what Moscow believes.
You apparently believe you do, but I have no reason to believe you.

I don't really care what you believe or not.

But in your mind you've built up this fantasy of Russia where it's an incredibly advanced military state that could crush the United States armed forces with impunity. I don't know where you got this idea, because you don't need to be a spy in the Kremlin to know that Moscow doesn't share that fantasy.

If the Russians had found a way to defeat stealth, the Russian media would be screaming it from the rooftops, because like the American media the Russian media loves to gossip and theorize about things they don't really understand.

The Russians are not dumb. They know that in a war with NATO they would be overwhelmed by NATO's conventional superiority, and thus Russia's grand strategy leans very heavily on the nuclear deterrent.

 

[Jredbaron96]

I expect in the future it will be enough to direct missiles to the area and obtain weapons lock during flight

How? Without good tracking you can't even detect distance or direction; long wavelength can only give a general direction and estimation, hardly a good source for an intercept flight. That also doesn't solve the problem of air-to-air missiles being unable to lock on to stealth aircraft.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

How? Without good tracking you can't even detect distance or direction; long wavelength can only give a general direction and estimation, hardly a good source for an intercept flight. That also doesn't solve the problem of air-to-air missiles being unable to lock on to stealth aircraft.

That is where the multiple receivers come into play. They can help triangulate the location to provide, and as such direction and speed.

National Interest has a few articles on the subject and a few other sites

 

[EMNofSeattle]

That is where the multiple receivers come into play. They can help triangulate the location to provide, and as such direction and speed.

National Interest has a few articles on the subject and a few other sites

He acts as though searchlights don’t exist and fighters that have a general idea of position and speed can’t find a stealth bomber well enough to engage with guns and IR missiles

 

[Jredbaron96]

That is where the multiple receivers come into play. They can help triangulate the location to provide, and as such direction and speed.

Except they're not going to give you any of that, lol. The problem with low resolution radars is precisely that, their inability to provide accurate tracking, and that's not something that can simply be solved by having multiple receivers, especially when those low band radar systems can still be targeted by other aircraft. It at best narrows the field down somewhat, but that still does not given enough information for a missile lock.

If using long wavelength radars was really such a stealth killer and not just a gimmick, development and refinement of such systems would be at the forefront of development. They're not, precisely because they are not a magic bullet.