Was this the biggest Nazi blunder in their invasion of the Soviet Union?

[MadLib]

He wasn't angry at all, until someone talked about Soviets in Latvia.

Looking back, it's pretty obvious that you thought I was passing judgment on the Baltic peoples for collaborating with the Nazis against the Soviets. I wasn't doing that, I was just pointing out how some people will cooperate with tyrants.

 

[Art_Allm]

Right, those eevvviiil Jooze, huh? Did you got banned from Stormfront?

I did not use the "J-Word" in my posts.

BTW, why is a "Proud South Korean" so eager to lick the Communist's boots?

Are you really a South Korean?

 

[Art_Allm]

The attack of the "rebels" was part of the plan. The idea was that the Polish "rogues" would be accompanied by regular "Polish army" units.

What plan?

Just take you brain in your hands and try to use it.
If there was a plan for a false flag operation in Gleiwitz, why did they barely mention this incident in German media or in police reports, and never talked neither in media nor in the police report about Polish soldiers?

Hitler, in his address, claimed three "serious incidents" and was clearly referencing the Gleiwitz incident...

No, because he talked about regular soldiers, and he talked about incidents that happened at night.
Do you read my posts?

The attack on the customs officials was also part of the German plan...

You have said that Gleiwitz incident was a "false flag operation", the pretext to start the invasion.
After I have cornered you with fact, you suddenly invent other "false flag operations".
Do you have any proves that the killing of German custom officers was also a "false flag operation"?

And what about the atrocities against German civilians in Poland? Were all these incidents "false flag operations"?

Now that that's been sorted out, how do you explain these quotes, which obviously indicate that the Nazi regime wanted to go to war with Poland?

What has been sorted out? What quotes? Can you furnish the original German quotes and links to the original source?

Yes, Poles were stupid, they committed atrocities against German civilians in Poland, they killed German custom officers, and that was the "casus belli" for the invasion. Brits fooled them into believing that they could get away with this.

I repeat the facts and quotes:

Well, the Poles believed that western powers would really wage a real war against any country that would invade Poland, that is why they behaved so brazenly.

If Poles knew that Brits and Americans would become the allies of Stalin after he invaded Poland and that after WWII the Brits would suppress the truth about the Katyn massacre, helping the Soviets to enslave Poland for half a century, then Polish government would have acted less brazenly and accepted the proposal of Germany to solve the Danzig-Question.

Well, that is the opinion of the Russian military historian Col. Sergey Kovalev.

He says that WWII was the result of the foolish stubbornness of Poles who refused to satisfy the demands of Germany and the inhabitants of the City of Danzig to reunite and to build an extra-territorial railroad between these two parts of German territories (that were the demands of the liberal Weimar Republic, too).


The Brits, French and Americans gave the foolish Poles the "delusions of grandeur" and Poland was eager to expand and subjugate even more ethnic minorities in 1939.

That was published in June 2009 on the official site of the Russian Defence Ministry.


"Anybody who has been minded to study the history of the Second World War knows that it started because of Poland's refusal to meet German demands. [...] The German demands were very modest."

That is the opinion of a leading Russian military expert published 5 years ago on a Russian official site!

http://www.debatepolitics.com/histo...-invasion-soviet-union-15.html#post1062932080

Yes, there were plans to invade Poland since the begining of August 1939, if the atrocities against Germans in Poland would not stop, and if Poland did not agree to the demands of the Germans in Danzig who wanted reunite with the rest of Germany.

But Brits asked the TR for new peace efforts, and Poles became a new proposal. If they had accepted this proposal, there would be no invasion, and no WWII.

As already mentioned, the prominent Russian military expert Sergey Kovalev believes that these proposals were moderate, and Poles were fooled by Brits into believing that they can reject these proposals and get away with that:

On 29 August, prompted by the British, Germany issued one last diplomatic offer, with Fall Weiss "Case White" yet to be rescheduled. That evening, the German government responded in a communication that it aimed not only for the restoration of Danzig but also the Polish Corridor (which had not previously been part of Hitler’s demands) in addition to the safeguarding of the German minority in Poland. It said that they were willing to commence negotiations, but indicated that a Polish representative with the power to sign an agreement had to arrive in Berlin the next day while in the meantime it would draw up a set of proposals.[34] The British Cabinet was pleased that negotiations had been agreed...

Invasion of Poland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a good link that is intended to have educational purpose. You can educate yourself if you want.


Address by Adolf Hitler - September 1, 1939

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

I did not use the "J-Word" in my posts.

BTW, why is a "Proud South Korean" so eager to lick the Communist's boots?

Are you really a South Korean?

I have more sympathy for Communists than racists, Neo-Nazis, and anti-Semites, thank you. At least the majority of communists are misguided idealists while the three above are ignorant idiots. Your posting history clearly shows that you are the latter two with your constant conspiracies about "banksters" and your constant justification of Nazism.

 

[Art_Allm]

I have more sympathy for Communists than racists,

Why do you not move to Communist North Korea, if you do not mind Communism?



BTW, Soviet Communists were the most hideous racists. They deported and committed genocides against entire ethnic groups.

They killed (via starvation) about 7 million Ukrainian Christians.

Neo-Nazis....

Godwin ++

....and anti-Semites...

What have Semites to do with our academic discussion?
Are you a Korean Semite?
Do you have any valid arguments, or are you going to go on with your ad-hominem-attacks?

 

[Oozlefinch]

I did not use the "J-Word" in my posts.

BTW, why is a "Proud South Korean" so eager to lick the Communist's boots?

Are you really a South Korean?

No, you just throw out catch-phrases like "Bankers" and the like over and over and over again.

But hey, if the shoe fits. Personally, I would like it better if you were simply more honest. DP is an equal opportunity forum. We have out and out Stalinist Marxists doing battle with Anti-Semitic Nazis all the time. Openly, they do not bother to try and hide their real beliefs.

So why not do the same my friend? Throw off those chains of oppression! Be proud of being a fanboi of der Paper Hanger! Stop playing stupid word gams and just proudly proclaim "yes, it is the fault of the Jews!"

At least it would be more honest. Because you know that you are not fooling anybody in here, it was obvious within moments what you were, so you are fooling nobody but yourself.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I have more sympathy for Communists than racists, Neo-Nazis, and anti-Semites, thank you. At least the majority of communists are misguided idealists while the three above are ignorant idiots. Your posting history clearly shows that you are the latter two with your constant conspiracies about "banksters" and your constant justification of Nazism.

Although to be completely honest, he is not a "Nazi", per se.

I am not sure if you are familiar with his particular subset of Neo-Nazis in the United States, but it is known as the "Christian Identity" movement. And he gives himself away by not only complaining about Communist Genocide, but constantly proclaiming they are "Christians".

So I guess any slaughter of Ukrainian Jews means nothing, only the Christians.

And yea, this is an ugly group of the Neo-Nazi movement. It is the fastest growing group of White Supremacists in the country, and has a lot of very distinguished members.

Like Robert Matthews, founder of The Order. They were the group that assassinated talk show host Alan Berg and robbed armored cars to fund their "army".
Or Buford Furrow, who killed a postal worker while trying to shoot up a Jewish Preschool. Ironically, married to the widow of Robert Matthews.

And thankfully, this sick movement is starting to die off, as members are arrested and put in jail, or die. Aryan Nations was the largest such Christian Identity group, and they are now just an old joke.

But they are not hard to spot and identify, if you know what to look for. And I had the misfortune to live for several years in what was at one time considered to be the main hub of that sick perverted movement.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Godwin ++

Sorry, Godwin's Law fail.

When the topic itself is about Nazi's, you can not then claim Godwin's Law. No more then you could claim it if somebody was to ask for the leader of the Nazi movement and be told Adolph Hitler.

So no, no, no, no, no. Godwin's Law is only valid if say the thread was about President Obama passing a law stating that the only color of curtains allowed will be red and that all people will be ordered to drive "People's Car" electric vehicles. If somebody was then to proclaim he was a Nazi for doing so, that would be a valid use of Godwin's Law.

But when the discussion topic itself has "Nazi" in it, not applicable.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Although to be completely honest, he is not a "Nazi", per se.

I am not sure if you are familiar with his particular subset of Neo-Nazis in the United States, but it is known as the "Christian Identity" movement. And he gives himself away by not only complaining about Communist Genocide, but constantly proclaiming they are "Christians".

So I guess any slaughter of Ukrainian Jews means nothing, only the Christians.

And yea, this is an ugly group of the Neo-Nazi movement. It is the fastest growing group of White Supremacists in the country, and has a lot of very distinguished members.

Like Robert Matthews, founder of The Order. They were the group that assassinated talk show host Alan Berg and robbed armored cars to fund their "army".
Or Buford Furrow, who killed a postal worker while trying to shoot up a Jewish Preschool. Ironically, married to the widow of Robert Matthews.

And thankfully, this sick movement is starting to die off, as members are arrested and put in jail, or die. Aryan Nations was the largest such Christian Identity group, and they are now just an old joke.

But they are not hard to spot and identify, if you know what to look for. And I had the misfortune to live for several years in what was at one time considered to be the main hub of that sick perverted movement.

Whewwww...man, but I don't envy you the time you spent there. You must have felt at least to some degree the same way I feel when dealing with some of my more racist family members Down South.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Although to be completely honest, he is not a "Nazi", per se.

I am not sure if you are familiar with his particular subset of Neo-Nazis in the United States, but it is known as the "Christian Identity" movement. And he gives himself away by not only complaining about Communist Genocide, but constantly proclaiming they are "Christians".

So I guess any slaughter of Ukrainian Jews means nothing, only the Christians.

And yea, this is an ugly group of the Neo-Nazi movement. It is the fastest growing group of White Supremacists in the country, and has a lot of very distinguished members.

Like Robert Matthews, founder of The Order. They were the group that assassinated talk show host Alan Berg and robbed armored cars to fund their "army".
Or Buford Furrow, who killed a postal worker while trying to shoot up a Jewish Preschool. Ironically, married to the widow of Robert Matthews.

And thankfully, this sick movement is starting to die off, as members are arrested and put in jail, or die. Aryan Nations was the largest such Christian Identity group, and they are now just an old joke.

But they are not hard to spot and identify, if you know what to look for. And I had the misfortune to live for several years in what was at one time considered to be the main hub of that sick perverted movement.

I had no idea that such a subset existed. Apparently the Nazi DNA for having a diverse number of sub-ideologies have been carried into the US. My general opinion was that the neo-Nazi movement in the US was too small and under too much pressure that they would be a single united front. BTW thanks for the info

 

[Oozlefinch]

Whewwww...man, but I don't envy you the time you spent there. You must have felt at least to some degree the same way I feel when dealing with some of my more racist family members Down South.

Believe it or not, this was in Southern California.

In the 1970's the Antelope Valley became a big player in the Christian Identity movement. Because of the huge aerospace industry in the area combined with White Flight, many saw it as a haven from the integration bussing that was sweeping through Los Angeles. So the CI movement moved in and started recruiting. This started the new "White Collar" racist movements. Knowing that the old White Robes would not work in Southern California, they hid behind "Christian" so outsiders would not realize what they really were.

And the region is still full of their children and grandchildren. Aryan Brotherhood has been dying for years now, but the "younger brother" replacement is the Nazi Lowriders, a more violent youth oriented gang that started in the Antelope Valley. Once an enforcement arm of the AB, now they have largely replaced it in the prison system.

I avoided all that nonsense simply by not associating with individuals like that. If somebody is a racist, that is fine with me. Just be a racist as far from me as you can get... say in Antarctica.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Believe it or not, this was in Southern California.

In the 1970's the Antelope Valley became a big player in the Christian Identity movement. Because of the huge aerospace industry in the area combined with White Flight, many saw it as a haven from the integration bussing that was sweeping through Los Angeles. So the CI movement moved in and started recruiting. This started the new "White Collar" racist movements. Knowing that the old White Robes would not work in Southern California, they hid behind "Christian" so outsiders would not realize what they really were.

And the region is still full of their children and grandchildren. Aryan Brotherhood has been dying for years now, but the "younger brother" replacement is the Nazi Lowriders, a more violent youth oriented gang that started in the Antelope Valley. Once an enforcement arm of the AB, now they have largely replaced it in the prison system.

I avoided all that nonsense simply by not associating with individuals like that. If somebody is a racist, that is fine with me. Just be a racist as far from me as you can get... say in Antarctica.

I'm glad you got away from there. But here's the kicker - in my experience, most racists are not violent. Yes, there will be groups and communities as you describe, but most racists are regular people living regular lives in regular homes, and who would eagerly risk their lives to save a black person in danger. They'll work alongside blacks all day long, share coffee with them at home, give them vegetables from the garden if the black person's family isn't doing too well...but as soon as those blacks are out of earshot, out come all the racist assumptions and prejudice.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I had no idea that such a subset existed. Apparently the Nazi DNA for having a diverse number of sub-ideologies have been carried into the US. My general opinion was that the neo-Nazi movement in the US was too small and under too much pressure that they would be a single united front. BTW thanks for the info

I consider them a kind of "Friendlier Racist", trying to appeal to a broader base then your traditional Klukkers in the US. Kind of like Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh claiming to be the "People's Guru", they portray themselves as "People's Racists".

And by identifying themselves as "Christians", they get a lot of interest from others who would think they are not Nazis. Christian beliefs, Christian Mindset, Anti-Communist, they combine all of these into a distinct movement which hides easily in the rest of the community.

Brother Ryan

And notice in that page the mention of "Bankers".

Again, typical of Christian Identity. They rarely separate out different groups, they infer their hatreds. Bankers for Jews, Immigrants for "non-White" (even if the families immigrated over 150 years ago), etc. But once you learn to recognize their "calling cards", they are easy to identify.

 

[Art_Allm]

When the topic itself is about Nazi's, you can not then claim Godwin's Law.

Godwin's law is about accusing your opponents of being "bad Nazis".

No, you just throw out catch-phrases like "Bankers" and the like over and over and over again.

If you address my arguments, I will answer your posts.

But I will not engage in a silly and childish ad-hominem discussion.

The arguments can be true or wrong, period.

Attack my arguments, prove that they are wrong!

Attack the message, not the messenger!

I do not care about your opinion about me.

I am a decent and honest man and I ONLY care about the opinion of men whom I regard to be decent and hones.

And it does not matter what I think about you and your colleagues in this forum.

Even "bad guys" can have valid arguments.

The only thing that matters in an intellectual discussion is truth.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Godwin's law is about accusing your opponents of being "bad Nazis".

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

That is Godwin's Law. If you are going to try and claim it in the future, at least bother to do at least basic research so you know what it actually is, eh?

As for the rest of what you say, flushed as irrelevant. Personal opinions of racists have absolutely no interest to me.

And trust me, I have been dealing with your ilk long before you were even born. So your constant attempts to dodge facts are meaningless.

 

[PoS]

The biggest blunder was not finishing off the UK before invading the USSR.

 

[cpgrad08]

Was this the biggest Nazi blunder in their invasion of the Soviet Union?

In many places, the invading Germans were heralded as liberators. Instead of being worse than even the Soviet government to the people, could they have used this to their advantage, and embraced and courted the people, to possibly defeat the Soviets?

It would have gone against what they told their own people & soldiers as to why they were even fighting, of course, but this is an intellectual discussion so... what say you?

They should have waited to after they defeated England. Build up for a few years and then lunch an invasion into the USSR. Also Hitler shouldn't have declared War on the USA.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

The biggest blunder was not finishing off the UK before invading the USSR.

How? It would have taken a decade at least to even have a chance at landing at the UK.

 

[apdst]

The biggest blunder was not finishing off the UK before invading the USSR.

He never wanted to attack England, in the first place...nor France. Hitler hoped to eventually ally with England.

Strategically, he should have either stayed out of Poland, or not invaded France--or both--and concentrated on conquering the Soviets.

 

[apdst]

How? It would have taken a decade at least to even have a chance at landing at the UK.

It wouldn't have taken that long.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

It wouldn't have taken that long.

Sure with their surface fleet having been massacred and with no chance of air superiority, it would have been a real possibility. Add to the fact that Sea Lion called for Rhine barges to carry out the landing, one can only imagine their chances at the Channel

 

[apdst]

Sure with their surface fleet having been massacred and with no chance of air superiority, it would have been a real possibility. Add to the fact that Sea Lion called for Rhine barges to carry out the landing, one can only imagine their chances at the Channel

Hitler was never serious about launching Sea Lion, to begin with. That's the reason the plan called for such meager TO&E.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Hitler was never serious about launching Sea Lion, to begin with. That's the reason the plan called for such meager TO&E.

He entertained some serious thoughts about it but then gave it up around mid-1940s. That still doesn't change the fact, even without the US, the Germans would have taken at least a decade. Their surface fleet was obliterated after Norway, and while they might have achieved air superiority sooner without Barbarossa, they would have taken years to build a surface fleet capable of challenging the RN.

 

[apdst]

He entertained some serious thoughts about it but then gave it up around mid-1940s. That still doesn't change the fact, even without the US, the Germans would have taken at least a decade. Their surface fleet was obliterated after Norway, and while they might have achieved air superiority sooner without Barbarossa, they would have taken years to build a surface fleet capable of challenging the RN.

He never entertained any serious thoughts. He authorized a plan to satisfy his generals. Invading England was never on Hitler's wish list; as I've pointed out, Hitler was hoping that England would eventually ally with Germany.

The landing craft the Allies used were made out of plywood. It wouldn't have been a big deal for the Germans to build the same boats.

 

[Oozlefinch]

They should have waited to after they defeated England. Build up for a few years and then lunch an invasion into the USSR. Also Hitler shouldn't have declared War on the USA.

Actually, I am one of those who thought they never could have defeated England. They simply lacked everything to do so. Wrong type of Navy, not enough craft for crossing, no air superiority, no heavy bombers, the list just goes on and on and on and on.

Their biggest mistake was invading the Soviets at all, compounded with declaring war against the United States. If they had been smart, they would have simply sat back once they gobbled up most of Europe, and waited a decade or so to assimilate their gains. By this time the youth who had been children when the war happened in the various countries would have been adults, brainwashed into believing in Aryanhood and the New Reich, and swelled the ranks of the various Legions of conquered nations.

Simply strengthen control of their conquests, stop the bombing of England, and build their power. I doubt England would have continued the war more then 2-3 years if Germany simply built up massive defenses to try and eliminate any attacks, meanwhile not launching any in return. Within a few years the Churchill Government would likely have been removed, as a more accommodation minded government tried to make an "arrangement" with the new European Power.

Then Germany would have been free to attack the Soviets.

Good thing Der Paper Hanger had such poor self-control, and never could think in the long term.