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Want to reduce the number of abortions? Here's how:

vergiss

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A woman should be able to choose whether or not she bares a child. It's only fair. In my case, I'm a sexually active 17-year-old who's been in a relationship for 11 months. I'm not an idiot - I take the Pill and would rather abstain than have sex without protection. However, recently my period was late and for a few horrible days, I pondered the possibility that I might be pregnant.

Up until that moment, I'd been one of those girls who never thought she'd have an abortion, who'd thought she'd bare and raise the child. Funnily enough, my mind changed almost instantly. I knew that my boyfriend would quickly go AWOL if I decided to have a baby, and I've never wanted to be a single mother. I want my children to have a loving and stable home life, unlike my own childhood. What's more, I wanted to finish my education and get a decent job - I'm not asking to be the CEO of a major corporation, just to be finanically secure and have a guaranteed roof over our heads. Besides, 17! That's barely mature enough to look after yourself, let alone a little baby. I know you're saying "Ooh, you could have just adopted it out!", but it's just not that simple. My boyfriend would have disappeared entirely, and my family would have gone through the roof. They wouldn't be the supportive type - no, in their eyes I'd forever be just a slut. It's very probably they'd have thrown me out of home completely. Similarly, I couldn't handly the public stares, the judgment and shame of being an unwed, pregnant teen. I certainly wouldn't have had the money for maternity clothes, pre-natal care, etc. What's more, I have a psychiatric condition, and pregnancy would mean ceasing all medication. God knows what all the stress and no meds would have done to my health.

As for the emotional agony of giving away the child I'd bonded with for 9 months and laboured to deliver, never to see him or her again? I knew I just could not cope.

I knew that an abortion would not only be better for me, but for the baby. That doesn't mean I was at all happy about it - hospitals freak me out. However, it would have been the lesser evil.

Luckily, I wasn't pregnant. My uterus was presumably just playing with my mind. However, it got me thinking - a woman's right to chose is sacred and should never be interfered with. Accidents happen, you can't just assume she and her partner were too foolish to wear a condom. However, how can you curb the number of abortions without making it illegal to have one? I have a few ideas:

Firstly, create greater support for women who want to continue their unplanned pregnancy and adopt out the child. This can be achieved through a number of ways:

* Make things more matter of fact - pregnancy is pregnancy. It's just a biological mechanism. "Pregnancy = she had sex = scandal!" is a downright idiotic way of thinking. Through massive public education, whatever, massively reduce the stigma that comes from being pregnant and unwed/young, whatever.

* Suport the finanical expenses that come from pregnancy. It's not cheap. Maternity clothes, proper medical care, housing where necessary - pay it all. Surely a few grand in taxpayers' dollars is worth it?

* Let the birth mother have some contact with her offspring once adopted out. I'm not talking about legal responsibilty or the like, but at the very least a regular update and a photo of the child. The birth mother did you a favour. It's the the least you can do to repay her.

Secondly, greater access to contraceptives. Abstinence is a nice idea, but it quite obviously doesn't work. Install free condom vending machines in high schools, greately reduce the expense of the Pill, and emphasise sex education. I once knew a girl who was highly intelligent - skipped 9th grade, was incredibly gifted in English. However, she came up to me one day and said "Kat - it's safe not to use condoms during and just after my period, isn't it?" :doh I nearly had a heart attack.

Last: TEACH MEN TO BE RESPONSIBLE. Just because she's the one who has to deal with the consequences doesn't mean it should all responsibility should rest with the woman. Force it into their skulls that if they try to weasel out of safe sex, they might end up with a screaming baby in their hands. What's more, make the penalties for men who try wimp out and run away from their half of the responsibility much, much harsher. If they try to skip town, let them know that they'll be found and made to account for what was equally his doing. I love my boyfriend - but his cowardice utterly appalled me.

Remember than no woman wants an abortion like she wants a haircut. Find ways to make the alternative options easier and fairer, rather than forcing it upon her and leaving her to suffer alone.
 

Schweddy

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Wow! Excellent post.

Hats off to your parents for understanding and taking action of getting you BC.

This is an all too common trend. You were smart enough to use contraception, but the idea of abortion popped into your head first and foremost before even thinking about taking responsibility for your own actions. Even before thinking of going through the 9 months. I am sure your boyfriend thought it as well. You guys may have had a short talk about it.

You said in your post that adoption is a viable option - which I agree - but you didn't want the burden of 9 months labor etc. It wasn't for you. Even through education, would this have changed your mind?

You also said that it was YOUR body and therefore your fetus. If it were all yours - why did you go talk to the boyfriend? It is not your choice to abort?

Firstly, create greater support for women who want to continue their unplanned pregnancy and adopt out the child.
There is much more support for women that want to keep their child than abort. There always has been. This is nothing new. We are a capitolistic society. There is more money to be made through adoption clinics than abortion clinics. I would not doubt that this thread creates an ad at the top for at least one of those agencies.

Suport the finanical expenses that come from pregnancy. It's not cheap. Maternity clothes, proper medical care, housing where necessary - pay it all. Surely a few grand in taxpayers' dollars is worth it?
Why should I pay for the screwup? The woman is NOT the victim - equally the men are not.
The true victim is the unwanted child.

Let the birth mother have some contact with her offspring once adopted out. I'm not talking about legal responsibilty or the like, but at the very least a regular update and a photo of the child. The birth mother did you a favour. It's the the least you can do to repay her.
Most abortion agencies have this available to them. I have a few friends that have adopted and everyone of them are still in contact with the birth mother. Again, nothing new.

Last: TEACH MEN TO BE RESPONSIBLE. Just because she's the one who has to deal with the consequences doesn't mean it should all responsibility should rest with the woman.
I agree 100%. But, take a moment and think about the male role in this whole ordeal. Regardless of what he thinks the decision rests with the mother. What if he wanted to abort and she did not? Tuff luck - deal with it. What if she wanted to abort and he did not? Again - his choice in the matter is irrelivant.

Men should equally have a choice.
 
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vergiss

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My parents getting me what? I got the Pill by myself, thanks. My mother would kill me if she knew I was having sex.

Taking responsibility for my own actions? I took responsibility by using protection. I'd be no more at fault for my contraception failing than I would be if someone drove head-on into my car. I'll admit that driving and sex both have some amount of risk - life is nothing but risk. However, why should someone have to suffer the unreasonable consequences of an accident that isn't their fault? Insurance companies wouldn't tell a car crash victim "Oh well, such is life, take responsibilty for your own actions - we're not going to pay for healthcare or car repairs."

By the way, it's not true that abortion popped into my head before I thought through other options. Don't put words into my mouth. Do you honestly think I was all "Well, guess I'll be off to the hospital, then. What's for dinner?" I realised after brooding in depth that I simply could not go throught with it because I would lose my boyfriend, I would lose my family, I would not have the money to finance it all, I would be unable to complete my education, and I would risk my own health. It was more than just a "burden", it would have ruined my life.

Where did I say it was my choice, let alone at it was "my body" and "all mine"? Don't be absurd, it's wrong not to at least tell the father that you're pregnant. As I said, he was most unhappy with the idea.

It's all very well to say that there's "support" for women in this situation, but short of counselling, I very much doubt it. Who would have housed, clothed and fed me during my pregnancy? Do you really think that people wouldn't say judgemental things, that my school (and the students and parents) would have been particularly happy with a pregnant student? You don't think women in this situation would have to face social stigma and condemnation?

Why should you have to pay for "the screwup"? Well, why does anyone pay for any sort of welfare? Because of a little thing known as social responsibility, not to mention compassion. Don't you think that it's a relatively small investment to pay for all those "innocent children" who'd otherwise be aborted?

I don't know what agencies you know of, but the ones I had a look at said contact between child and birth mother was "discouraged".

The solutions I put forward are painless. Really, there's nothing to lose.

Regarding paternal responsibility - you don't believe a woman should not have the right to abort her maternal responsibility. So why should a man abort his paternal responsibility? It's all, or nothing. And as nice as it'd be for men to have equal say in it, it's unfortunately not biologically possible. So short of punching her in the belly, or kidnapping her to prevent an abortion, he'd be rather powerless to stop it either way. Having said that, if the guy wanted the child and she did not, I'm sure most women would go through the pregnancy. I would, as I would be guaranteed the support I need, and any access to the child that I might so desire. As I said, rarely is a woman ever happy to have an abortion.
 

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vergiss said:
A woman should be able to choose whether or not she bares a child. It's only fair. In my case, I'm a sexually active 17-year-old who's been in a relationship for 11 months. I'm not an idiot - I take the Pill and would rather abstain than have sex without protection. However, recently my period was late and for a few horrible days, I pondered the possibility that I might be pregnant.

Up until that moment, I'd been one of those girls who never thought she'd have an abortion, who'd thought she'd bare and raise the child. Funnily enough, my mind changed almost instantly. I knew that my boyfriend would quickly go AWOL if I decided to have a baby, and I've never wanted to be a single mother. I want my children to have a loving and stable home life, unlike my own childhood. What's more, I wanted to finish my education and get a decent job - I'm not asking to be the CEO of a major corporation, just to be finanically secure and have a guaranteed roof over our heads. Besides, 17! That's barely mature enough to look after yourself, let alone a little baby. I know you're saying "Ooh, you could have just adopted it out!", but it's just not that simple. My boyfriend would have disappeared entirely, and my family would have gone through the roof. They wouldn't be the supportive type - no, in their eyes I'd forever be just a slut. It's very probably they'd have thrown me out of home completely. Similarly, I couldn't handly the public stares, the judgment and shame of being an unwed, pregnant teen. I certainly wouldn't have had the money for maternity clothes, pre-natal care, etc. What's more, I have a psychiatric condition, and pregnancy would mean ceasing all medication. God knows what all the stress and no meds would have done to my health.

As for the emotional agony of giving away the child I'd bonded with for 9 months and laboured to deliver, never to see him or her again? I knew I just could not cope.

I knew that an abortion would not only be better for me, but for the baby. That doesn't mean I was at all happy about it - hospitals freak me out. However, it would have been the lesser evil.

Luckily, I wasn't pregnant. My uterus was presumably just playing with my mind. However, it got me thinking - a woman's right to chose is sacred and should never be interfered with. Accidents happen, you can't just assume she and her partner were too foolish to wear a condom. However, how can you curb the number of abortions without making it illegal to have one? I have a few ideas:

Firstly, create greater support for women who want to continue their unplanned pregnancy and adopt out the child. This can be achieved through a number of ways:

* Make things more matter of fact - pregnancy is pregnancy. It's just a biological mechanism. "Pregnancy = she had sex = scandal!" is a downright idiotic way of thinking. Through massive public education, whatever, massively reduce the stigma that comes from being pregnant and unwed/young, whatever.

* Suport the finanical expenses that come from pregnancy. It's not cheap. Maternity clothes, proper medical care, housing where necessary - pay it all. Surely a few grand in taxpayers' dollars is worth it?

* Let the birth mother have some contact with her offspring once adopted out. I'm not talking about legal responsibilty or the like, but at the very least a regular update and a photo of the child. The birth mother did you a favour. It's the the least you can do to repay her.

Secondly, greater access to contraceptives. Abstinence is a nice idea, but it quite obviously doesn't work. Install free condom vending machines in high schools, greately reduce the expense of the Pill, and emphasise sex education. I once knew a girl who was highly intelligent - skipped 9th grade, was incredibly gifted in English. However, she came up to me one day and said "Kat - it's safe not to use condoms during and just after my period, isn't it?" :doh I nearly had a heart attack.

Last: TEACH MEN TO BE RESPONSIBLE. Just because she's the one who has to deal with the consequences doesn't mean it should all responsibility should rest with the woman. Force it into their skulls that if they try to weasel out of safe sex, they might end up with a screaming baby in their hands. What's more, make the penalties for men who try wimp out and run away from their half of the responsibility much, much harsher. If they try to skip town, let them know that they'll be found and made to account for what was equally his doing. I love my boyfriend - but his cowardice utterly appalled me.

Remember than no woman wants an abortion like she wants a haircut. Find ways to make the alternative options easier and fairer, rather than forcing it upon her and leaving her to suffer alone.
As someone who's been through the adoption process... adoption laws are wide open, if the birthmother and the adoptive parent's so choose. I had my son when I was 18, and knew I could not care for him, nor could I kill him.

The long and short of it is.. when I got married in 1992, the adoptive parents AND my son were at my wedding. It was the greatest day, because in the end, it only affirmed that I made the BEST decision possible for him. FOR HIM.

He is now 15 years old, a sophmore in high school. He gets straight A's, and the last I talked to him on the phone, was as girl crazy as ever. When he was younger, he used to ask me why I didn't want him? My answer... Not a matter of not wanting. It was a matter of not wanting you to suffer for my inability to care for you. It didn't make sense to him then... but now he understands. He sees because his middle sister was also adopted, though she has no contact with her birth parents. They have all but forgotten who she is... at least in terms of cards, letters, phone calls, the like.

I know I did the best possible thing for him.. but it was MY decision. And the reason I say it was MY decision, is because at the moment the pregnancy was discovered.. the birthfather (my then boyfriend) decided he wanted nothing more to do with the situation.

I know many advocate father's rights... but should they still have rights if they decide to just walk away? I'm all for rights... for 2 people who are willing to face the decision process together. But those that just disappear... I say they've lost their right.

So for someone who's been in the situation... what you ask for adoption, already for the most part, exists. Something many people do not know unless they've been there in some capacity.
 

galenrox

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vergiss said:
A woman should be able to choose whether or not she bares a child. It's only fair. In my case, I'm a sexually active 17-year-old who's been in a relationship for 11 months. I'm not an idiot - I take the Pill and would rather abstain than have sex without protection. However, recently my period was late and for a few horrible days, I pondered the possibility that I might be pregnant.

Up until that moment, I'd been one of those girls who never thought she'd have an abortion, who'd thought she'd bare and raise the child. Funnily enough, my mind changed almost instantly. I knew that my boyfriend would quickly go AWOL if I decided to have a baby, and I've never wanted to be a single mother. I want my children to have a loving and stable home life, unlike my own childhood. What's more, I wanted to finish my education and get a decent job - I'm not asking to be the CEO of a major corporation, just to be finanically secure and have a guaranteed roof over our heads. Besides, 17! That's barely mature enough to look after yourself, let alone a little baby. I know you're saying "Ooh, you could have just adopted it out!", but it's just not that simple. My boyfriend would have disappeared entirely, and my family would have gone through the roof. They wouldn't be the supportive type - no, in their eyes I'd forever be just a slut. It's very probably they'd have thrown me out of home completely. Similarly, I couldn't handly the public stares, the judgment and shame of being an unwed, pregnant teen. I certainly wouldn't have had the money for maternity clothes, pre-natal care, etc. What's more, I have a psychiatric condition, and pregnancy would mean ceasing all medication. God knows what all the stress and no meds would have done to my health.

As for the emotional agony of giving away the child I'd bonded with for 9 months and laboured to deliver, never to see him or her again? I knew I just could not cope.

I knew that an abortion would not only be better for me, but for the baby. That doesn't mean I was at all happy about it - hospitals freak me out. However, it would have been the lesser evil.

Luckily, I wasn't pregnant. My uterus was presumably just playing with my mind. However, it got me thinking - a woman's right to chose is sacred and should never be interfered with. Accidents happen, you can't just assume she and her partner were too foolish to wear a condom. However, how can you curb the number of abortions without making it illegal to have one? I have a few ideas:

Firstly, create greater support for women who want to continue their unplanned pregnancy and adopt out the child. This can be achieved through a number of ways:

* Make things more matter of fact - pregnancy is pregnancy. It's just a biological mechanism. "Pregnancy = she had sex = scandal!" is a downright idiotic way of thinking. Through massive public education, whatever, massively reduce the stigma that comes from being pregnant and unwed/young, whatever.

* Suport the finanical expenses that come from pregnancy. It's not cheap. Maternity clothes, proper medical care, housing where necessary - pay it all. Surely a few grand in taxpayers' dollars is worth it?

* Let the birth mother have some contact with her offspring once adopted out. I'm not talking about legal responsibilty or the like, but at the very least a regular update and a photo of the child. The birth mother did you a favour. It's the the least you can do to repay her.

Secondly, greater access to contraceptives. Abstinence is a nice idea, but it quite obviously doesn't work. Install free condom vending machines in high schools, greately reduce the expense of the Pill, and emphasise sex education. I once knew a girl who was highly intelligent - skipped 9th grade, was incredibly gifted in English. However, she came up to me one day and said "Kat - it's safe not to use condoms during and just after my period, isn't it?" :doh I nearly had a heart attack.

Last: TEACH MEN TO BE RESPONSIBLE. Just because she's the one who has to deal with the consequences doesn't mean it should all responsibility should rest with the woman. Force it into their skulls that if they try to weasel out of safe sex, they might end up with a screaming baby in their hands. What's more, make the penalties for men who try wimp out and run away from their half of the responsibility much, much harsher. If they try to skip town, let them know that they'll be found and made to account for what was equally his doing. I love my boyfriend - but his cowardice utterly appalled me.

Remember than no woman wants an abortion like she wants a haircut. Find ways to make the alternative options easier and fairer, rather than forcing it upon her and leaving her to suffer alone.
alright, maybe I was a little rough on you in the basement. That was an excellent and well thought out post.
 

Schweddy

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Please accept my appology. I did not mean to offend.

My parents getting me what? I got the Pill by myself, thanks. My mother would kill me if she knew I was having sex.
It is unfortunate that you cannot talk to your parents about it.

Taking responsibility for my own actions? I took responsibility by using protection. I'd be no more at fault for my contraception failing than I would be if someone drove head-on into my car. I'll admit that driving and sex both have some amount of risk - life is nothing but risk. However, why should someone have to suffer the unreasonable consequences of an accident that isn't their fault? Insurance companies wouldn't tell a car crash victim "Oh well, such is life, take responsibilty for your own actions - we're not going to pay for healthcare or car repairs."
My thought was that the very idea of abortion was not taking responsibility.

Where did I say it was my choice, let alone at it was "my body" and "all mine"? Don't be absurd, it's wrong not to at least tell the father that you're pregnant. As I said, he was most unhappy with the idea.
I am guilty of putting words in your mouth and labeling you. I assumed that you had ment that the fetus would be your possession.

It's all very well to say that there's "support" for women in this situation, but short of counselling, I very much doubt it. Who would have housed, clothed and fed me during my pregnancy? Do you really think that people wouldn't say judgemental things, that my school (and the students and parents) would have been particularly happy with a pregnant student? You don't think women in this situation would have to face social stigma and condemnation?
The state will house any young lady under the age of 18 if they need it during pregnancy.

Regarding paternal responsibility - you don't believe a woman should not have the right to abort her maternal responsibility. So why should a man abort his paternal responsibility? It's all, or nothing. And as nice as it'd be for men to have equal say in it, it's unfortunately not biologically possible.
No, I do not believe that a woman should have sole responsibility. That fetus is only half hers. The man should have equal protection against parenting as women currently do. If there is a disagreement - take it to the courts. The man should have equal say as the woman. The man should be able to sign all his paternal rights away to her.
 

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vauge said:
Wow! Excellent post.

Hats off to your parents for understanding and taking action of getting you BC.

This is an all too common trend. You were smart enough to use contraception, but the idea of abortion popped into your head first and foremost before even thinking about taking responsibility for your own actions. Even before thinking of going through the 9 months. I am sure your boyfriend thought it as well. You guys may have had a short talk about it.

You said in your post that adoption is a viable option - which I agree - but you didn't want the burden of 9 months labor etc. It wasn't for you. Even through education, would this have changed your mind?
I kind of missed your point at the end, would what have changed her mind?

I don't view abortion as an all too common trend, but instead I view the need to have abortions is all too common. It gets lost in the debate over whether or not a fetus is alive the actual effect of an abortion on a woman, and because of that, regardless of whether or not a fetus is alive, abortions should not be a common thing, and the only real solution to this is sex education, and I mean real sex education, not this bullshit scare tactics type, but instead real teaching, like the real ****, and also provide ways for teens to get the contraception cheaply, because the kids are gonna be ****ing regardless, the question is whether or not that ****ing will lead to more unwanted pregnancies.
You also said that it was YOUR body and therefore your fetus. If it were all yours - why did you go talk to the boyfriend? It is not your choice to abort?
Ultimately it is her decision, but it is considerate and decent to talk to her boyfriends about it. If I accidentally got my girlfriend pregnant, I'd want for her to talk to me about it, even though she knows full well whatever decision she made I would accomidate.

There is much more support for women that want to keep their child than abort. There always has been. This is nothing new. We are a capitolistic society. There is more money to be made through adoption clinics than abortion clinics. I would not doubt that this thread creates an ad at the top for at least one of those agencies.
Except that if people see a seventeen year old pregnant, their first thought is "Slut", while if they see a seventeen year old who just had an abortion, they don't see any difference.
Why should I pay for the screwup? The woman is NOT the victim - equally the men are not.
The true victim is the unwanted child.
Well you and I both know we differ on whether the fetus is the victim, so I'm not gonna beat a dead horse on that.
What she is saying is if you are so concerned with what's going on in her womb, why don't you pay for it. If she doesn't want to carry it, and you want her to, and you value it more than she does, why don't you pay for it, I mean, you noted earlier that we are in a capitalist society, so asking you to pay for her to carry the fetus full term is just raising the question of how pro-life are you, it's asking you to put your money where your mouth is.
Most abortion agencies have this available to them. I have a few friends that have adopted and everyone of them are still in contact with the birth mother. Again, nothing new.
yeah, I've heard about that before too.
I agree 100%. But, take a moment and think about the male role in this whole ordeal. Regardless of what he thinks the decision rests with the mother. What if he wanted to abort and she did not? Tuff luck - deal with it. What if she wanted to abort and he did not? Again - his choice in the matter is irrelivant.
But then think about a different male aspect, and the female aspect. The dude can bail, and she has no say over that. If he wants nothing to do with the child, he may end up paying child support, and that's it. And in whether or not he cares to leave, her choice is irrelevant. Both genders have certain areas of power and lack thereof, it's unfortunate that it comes to **** like that, but it does, and the way things are seem to be the only rational way things can be.
Men should equally have a choice.
What do you suggest as an alternative? She needs the father's signature to get an abortion? Then would he need her signature to leave her?
 

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I live in Australia. Things are evidentally different here. There is no protection for the birth mother's right to have contact with the child she has adopted out. I'm sure the state would find me foster care (Until I turn 18, which is in less than a year. I'm hardly going to be able to afford my independence the moment I'm legally an adult)... but would they pay for maternity clothes, all the care I need, etc? And I'd still be a tramp in the eyes of the public, and worse - in the eyes of my family. Plus, there's still the matter of my mental health. I'm sure many women can go through it, and good for them. I just know that I could not, at least not for a few more years.

Some of those things for birth mothers may already exist. That is definitely a good thing. However, I'm sure it could be greately improved upon. How about temporary housing facilities for the women? Dedicated high school classes for pregnant teenagers, so they don't have to endure judegmental staff and students at their regular school? How about counsellors who'll go to the families of these girls and women to educate them that an unplanned pregnancy is neither the end of the world, nor a reason to decide that she's a whore?

It is unfortunate that I can't talk to my mother about sex, but such is life, I suppose. I think I've done pretty well for myself in spite of it. However, I'm probably smarter than most. Probably, the majority of people won't actively seek out information regarding sexual health, contraception, etc. That's where the need for sex education comes in.

Vauge, to whom would I owe responsibility? The foetus? But why? After all, I'd have done all I could (short of abstinence) to prevent its existence. If a man can sign away all his paternal rights, can't a woman, by having an abortion?
 
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vergiss said:
I live in Australia. Things are evidentally different here. There is no protection for the birth mother's right to have contact with the child she has adopted out. I'm sure the state would find me foster care (Until I turn 18, which is in less than a year. I'm hardly going to be able to afford my independence the moment I'm legally an adult)... but would they pay for maternity clothes, all the care I need, etc? And I'd still be a tramp in the eyes of the public, and worse - in the eyes of my family. Plus, there's still the matter of my mental health. I'm sure many women can go through it, and good for them. I just know that I could not, at least not for a few more years.
It was like that for many years here in the US. Women would give birth to children, generally forced to give them up for adoption, not even knowing if they'd had a boy or girl. Never getting to hold them, see them. Over time, people began to realize that this was doing more harm than good to women who'd faced an unplanned pregnancy. As far as the caring for pregnant women and girls, we in the US have many facilities open to do just that. They are in group home type settings, where they're educated about either raising their children (as well as going to school if they're teens) or the adoption process. Most of these homes, that I've encountered, are religion based, so that may be a drawback to some... but the option is there.

Society has advanced in the need, but I still think much more could be done. Education definitely is key... more parental responsibility.. definitely. I often get accused of being "righteous" because I believe that it is only the responsibility of mom and dad to educate their kid on sex. I don't believe the schools should be teaching kids that because it's just another way for mom and dad to let the government take over their job. However, I DO understand the need for it, and know that some education in school is better than no education at all. And I also don't believe that it is the right of the school to tell me my child is required to take it. If I wish to give that consent fine, but I'd sooner do the teaching. That way I KNOW what they're being taught.
 

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The problem with that is parents can opt to have their children excluded from sex-education in school, and still not discuss it with their kids themselves. So their children still miss out.

Social stigma is the worst part of it all. If women in these situations weren't considered sluts, there'd be no problem. They wouldn't get kicked out of home, they wouldn't face shame at school or the workplace. In an ideal world, people would know women who are pregnant and adopt out their baby, whilst continuing their day-to-day life, yet think nothing of it. I've known people who are incredibly open-minded and tolerant, but still say uncharacteristically snide things about pregnant teens they spot crossing the road.
 

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vergiss said:
Some of those things for birth mothers may already exist. That is definitely a good thing. However, I'm sure it could be greately improved upon. How about temporary housing facilities for the women? Dedicated high school classes for pregnant teenagers, so they don't have to endure judegmental staff and students at their regular school? How about counsellors who'll go to the families of these girls and women to educate them that an unplanned pregnancy is neither the end of the world, nor a reason to decide that she's a whore?
Here in the US all these are available. Pregnancy schools are normally in the largest cities though.

Vauge, to whom would I owe responsibility? The foetus? But why? After all, I'd have done all I could (short of abstinence) to prevent its existence. If a man can sign away all his paternal rights, can't a woman, by having an abortion?
Currently yes, and that is my point. The legal system should be the arbitrator - not the man and not the woman.
 

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Well first of all being someone that is adopted I can tell you first hand that the birthmother can have contact with the child. Many adoptions today are open, and there are options to where the birthmother can have visitation with the child. Do some research on that subject, all of what you ask in adoption exists already.

Also, your story sounds familiar with a slight twist. I knew this woman who was in her teens when she got pregnant, always said she would keep the child and was scared out of her wits when the test came out positive. Sure enough just as she figured the father was gone after learning of her having the child and then knowing she wanted to have it. Her parents were from Mexico and had old traditions, basically they wanted her out of the house because she disgraced them. Then of course she had to forget college because that wasn't going to happen. OH wait... yeah she also had that issue with people noticing she was alone and pregnant, as well as being on medication at the time. Anyway, the small twist is that she bucked up and carried her child for 9 months. She delievered that child and suffered through the pain of raising a child alone, the father never came back. She worked real hard, got assistance from where she could, and took one day at a time.

Even in the face of this "social stigma" she realized it was what she thought of herself and what her child thought of her that mattered and not what society thought. She didn't need open-minded, tolerant people for her to make it, she needed herself. This woman is my wife and went through this 4 years before I met her. Today she owns her own business, where she can make time for her kids. BTW, she did this with never having gone to college. She has had two more boys, with another child on the way. Her family forgot all about the supposed shame factor once the child was born, and she realized the true character of the father and never contacted him again. She even made it without him paying child support ever. She made it because she lived by one simple concept: "That which does not kill me, only makes me stronger." She didn't care about society, she didn't care about her family, or the father. They had their opinions, but she had her own as well.

Anyone can talk themselves into an abortion by saying it is what is best for the child, I still have yet to understand how killing a child is best for them. She can tell you that by having this child she is where she is today. It was more then just caring for another human, she learned many valuable things that made her a success, like overcoming adversity, listening to herself, etc. Some just look at what they face and want the easiest way out. Instead of face the flames they would rather find a different road to take. Some take a hard look at their character and decide it's time to grow up. Some decide to take responsibility for their actions. (No matter how many times you say killing your unborn child is taking responsibility it doesn't make it true.) Some know how to dictate their future instead of letting their circumstances dictate it to them. Like I said close to the same story, just a small matter of not killing an innocent human.
 

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So what's you're point - your wife is braver and generally superior to me because she had her child, whereas I'm cowardly and selfish? :roll: Meh, at least I'm smart enough not to ruin my life.

Jesus, people. I offer solutions, which anti-abortionists are always begging for, and you come up with obstacles. Don't you want change?
 

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Vergiss,

While I don't agree with you on everything, I do get a kick out of your ability to articulate your position well.....reminds me of myself at your age.....

I do agree with you on the stud/sluts double standard thing. Just remember that this unfair double standard has its root sin behavioral evolutionary anthropology. A male who impregnates a lot of females is useful to the perpetuation of the species. A female who enjoys multiple partners is threatens a male ability to spread his genes because her offspring might not be his.

Additionally, females use the promise of sexual pleasure to manipulate males into doing their bidding. A female who enjoys sexual pleasure just for the physicial, emotional and mental benefit is a threat to the overall ability of females to manipulate males-that is why they must be castigated by female society at large-it threatens their power base.

Additionally, I noticed you used the term "safe-sex". This is a term created by homosexual AIDS activists to make heterosexuals think you are at risk of HIV seroconverting from heterosexual sex. You are, but at a rate about 3 times greater than being struck by lightning in a lifetime. Do not believe all the politically correct teen heterosexuals are at HIV risk from sex propaganda, it is all political lies. A review of the CDC's Daily Aids Summaries and AIDS Surveillance Reports show just what lies they are, as does the Nancy Padian, et al Study..she's the Chief Epidemiologist for UCSF.

You mentioned some things about pregnacy affecting only the female. I have to disagree......the sexist US laws allow a female to force a male into slavery for 18 years against his will for something he has no say in-to abort or not to abort. Additionally, you have completed ignored the wishes of the unborn child.

I have to agree with Vauge on the unfairness against males issue here.

Anyway, excellent job of articulating your position.
 

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vergiss said:
So what's you're point - your wife is braver and generally superior to me because she had her child, whereas I'm cowardly and selfish? :roll: Meh, at least I'm smart enough not to ruin my life.

Jesus, people. I offer solutions, which anti-abortionists are always begging for, and you come up with obstacles. Don't you want change?
Not at all, your story lists several reasons you justify getting an abortion. I found it interesting that all those reasons remind me of my wife. I simply showed that doing the opposite of what you did, didn't have the life wrecking consequences one would think. You say at least you didn't ruin your life. Apparently you were not reading. My wife is a successful business owner, she can be a mother because she is her own boss. Her family forgot all about being shamed by her being pregnant once she had their grandchild. She saw the true character of the father which prevented her from making the mistake of marrying him. Her life is anything but ruined, quite the contrary, she has accomplished things in her life some don't do in a lifetime.

I have no obstacles to your solutions, some I agree some I don't, I posted no objections about your solutions, I gave another side to the story you told. Stick to what was discussed, and not to what wasn't.
 

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vergiss said:
So what's you're point - your wife is braver and generally superior to me because she had her child, whereas I'm cowardly and selfish? :roll: Meh, at least I'm smart enough not to ruin my life.

Jesus, people. I offer solutions, which anti-abortionists are always begging for, and you come up with obstacles. Don't you want change?
The solutions you're offering already exist in the United States. That's what we're saying.

All of these solutions you laid out are excellent. However, it comes down to a way of thinking. Some, I guess, just have no problem having an abortion, but mention adoption to them... I'm not giving away my kid. I don't get it, I don't try to get it. I just do what I do, and teach my kids to think on the issue, not what society tells them to think, but what their heart tells them to think.

When I was pregnant with my son.. I lived in a maternity home. I was already out of high school, so that wasn't an issue for me. But everything I needed was taken care of as far as housing, food, clothing, and the like. I got tons of support because I was the only girl in the house of 6 girls (some as young as 14) who chose adoption. Not to say the other girls got no support, their's was just on a totally different level.

And 15 years later, I am still active with this maternity home. I volunteer weekend service as a "day parent" in which my family goes to the home, spends the day with the girls and we enjoy each other's company. They've found it easier to talk to me, because I've been there, and there's been a few cases where girls who were going to parent, changed their mind and sought adoption, not because they were told too, but because the process was finally explained to them, and the images they had in their head were dispelled. Many girls believe adoption means they will NEVER see or hear from the child again... and somehow we have to dispell that myth.
 

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debate_junkie said:
The solutions you're offering already exist in the United States. That's what we're saying.

All of these solutions you laid out are excellent. However, it comes down to a way of thinking. Some, I guess, just have no problem having an abortion, but mention adoption to them... I'm not giving away my kid. I don't get it, I don't try to get it. I just do what I do, and teach my kids to think on the issue, not what society tells them to think, but what their heart tells them to think.
And that's exactly what the pro-choice community wants, you do your thing, we'll do ours.
When I was pregnant with my son.. I lived in a maternity home. I was already out of high school, so that wasn't an issue for me. But everything I needed was taken care of as far as housing, food, clothing, and the like. I got tons of support because I was the only girl in the house of 6 girls (some as young as 14) who chose adoption. Not to say the other girls got no support, their's was just on a totally different level.

And 15 years later, I am still active with this maternity home. I volunteer weekend service as a "day parent" in which my family goes to the home, spends the day with the girls and we enjoy each other's company. They've found it easier to talk to me, because I've been there, and there's been a few cases where girls who were going to parent, changed their mind and sought adoption, not because they were told too, but because the process was finally explained to them, and the images they had in their head were dispelled. Many girls believe adoption means they will NEVER see or hear from the child again... and somehow we have to dispell that myth.
That's fantastic, that is a great thing to do, and I commend you for it. That's really a great thing to do with your time!
 

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vauge said:
Here in the US all these are available. Pregnancy schools are normally in the largest cities though.

Currently yes, and that is my point. The legal system should be the arbitrator - not the man and not the woman.
The arbitrator of what? Whether the woman keeps or aborts the baby? This is not for the legal system to decide, it is for the individual. If the legal system gets involved in this personal issue, do you believe they have the right to be involved in other personal issues? This is excessive government interference. Abortion is a personal issue and has nothing to do with the general public. Our legal system has no business abritrating.
 

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This is off the subject, and perhaps it's been mentioned, but if your boyfriend would go awol if you became pregnant, you need to look for another boyfriend.
 

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blogger31 said:
Not at all, your story lists several reasons you justify getting an abortion. I found it interesting that all those reasons remind me of my wife. I simply showed that doing the opposite of what you did, didn't have the life wrecking consequences one would think. You say at least you didn't ruin your life. Apparently you were not reading. My wife is a successful business owner, she can be a mother because she is her own boss. Her family forgot all about being shamed by her being pregnant once she had their grandchild. She saw the true character of the father which prevented her from making the mistake of marrying him. Her life is anything but ruined, quite the contrary, she has accomplished things in her life some don't do in a lifetime.
But your wife is just one person. I'm another. I want to be a director and to travel - how am I meant to get the qualifications I need and go backpacking with a toddler in tow? Maybe some women want to compromise their ambitions. I don't.

It's good that these maternity homes exist, but don't you think public perception needs to be changed on a huge scale? There'd still be the shame, and those girls and women would still be struggling to make ends meet.

Vague, how long would it take for the legal system to decide such things? How much money would it be? An abortion has to be performed within the first trimester, which is three months. Do you reasonably think it could be done in time? I doubt it.

Hoot - he's 20, deep down I can't blame him. Besides... him going AWOL is probably no worse than if I were to get an abortion. Anyway, that's what lawyers are for. ;)
 

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vergiss said:
But your wife is just one person. I'm another. I want to be a director and to travel - how am I meant to get the qualifications I need and go backpacking with a toddler in tow? Maybe some women want to compromise their ambitions. I don't.
It is not compromising ambitions, it is being a success in the face of adversity. The problem is too many young women (and men for that matter) see a pregnancy and a child as the end of their life. Not so, it is a huge bump in the road. You told your story as if to justify your reasoning. I gave you the same story with the exact opposite decision and still showed that in the end triumph was reached. Guess what my wife's ambition was before she got pregnant? She was going to college for a business degree, she wanted to own her own business and be her own boss. She accomplished that even by having a child while she was a teen. Some of the problems with societies today is that people don't know how to overcome, they look for the easiest way out, not the right way, then later justify to themselves.
 

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Whatever you think. Fact is, I'm not having a baby until I want to, and no amount of guilt-tripping or "But so and so had six kids before 18 and is now the head of Microsoft!" is going to convince me otherwise.

I'm on the Pill. I take responsibility and all the necessary precautions before having sex. Should the unforeseeable happen, I don't owe anything to a blob of cells that I took every measure to prevent from existing.
 

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vergiss said:
I don't owe anything to a blob of cells that I took every measure to prevent from existing.
Except one...
 

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Your implication is lost on me. Care to explain it clearly?
 

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vergiss said:
Your implication is lost on me. Care to explain it clearly?
First of all, I was just being a smart-aleck. I didn't mean anything other than a blob of cells wouldn't exist at all if you actually took every measure...
 
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