[W:#49]Conversion therapy is now illegal in Canada

[cpwill]

This law is a very good step for LGBT rights.

Ironically, this law actually reduces the ability of LGBT people to exercise their rights, by closing off pathways that some of them may wish to seek.

 

[Cope]

That is just ****ing ignorant.
Society has the responsibility, no duty to ensure that its members are not subjected to fake treatments and are taken advantage of.
It is for the same reason that medicines are regulated by the FDA, or that one is not allowed to shoot someone else even if that person voluntarily requests it.

No it does not, because there are enough assholes and their defenders out there who would cause real harm.

You talk of ignorance and then spout it.

It is not your responsibility to tell me what I can and can't do voluntarily.

 

[prometeus]

You talk of ignorance and then spout it.

It is not your responsibility to tell me what I can and can't do voluntarily.

Nobody is trying to, so yes I am talking about the ignorance in your posts.

 

[prometeus]

Ironically, this law actually reduces the ability of LGBT people to exercise their rights, by closing off pathways that some of them may wish to seek.

Yea, just like some people wanted to take fish tank cleaner and the mean government is trying to stop them.

 

[Cope]

Nobody is trying to, so yes I am talking about the ignorance in your posts.

Yes, you are, and the fact that you do not know it says worlds.

If adults cannot of their own free will seek any sort of counseling that is offered, then you are telling them they cannot.

 

[prometeus]

Yes, you are, and the fact that you do not know it says worlds.

Spare me the continued stupidity.

If adults cannot of their own free will seek any sort of counseling that is offered, then you are telling them they cannot.

No that is not the case.

 

[Cope]

Spare me the continued stupidity.

No that is not the case.

ALSO YOU---"
Society has the responsibility, no duty to ensure that its members are not subjected to fake treatments and are taken advantage of.
It is for the same reason that medicines are regulated by the FDA, or that one is not allowed to shoot someone else even if that person voluntarily requests it."


Yes, YOU are,

 

[cpwill]

Yea, just like some people wanted to take fish tank cleaner and the mean government is trying to stop them.

..... No. If self expression and the ability to choose our own paths is really so sacrosanct, then, let them do so.

And don't claim to be expanding anyone's rights when, in reality, all you are doing is limiting them.

 

[prometeus]

..... No. If self expression and the ability to choose our own paths is really so sacrosanct, then, let them do so.

And don't claim to be expanding anyone's rights when, in reality, all you are doing is limiting them.

I mentioned nothing about rights and no, just because there are asuckers we should not allow people to take advantage of them, especially when it is demonstrated that that is all they do.

 

[cpwill]

I mentioned nothing about rights and no, just because there are asuckers we should not allow people to take advantage of them, especially when it is demonstrated that that is all they do.

no. Plenty of people of good will and good faith disagree with you when it comes to healthy human sexuality.

In this case, banning therapy for homosexuals who may wish not to live that lifestyle was presented as a "win" for their "rights" - all it does is cut off help to those who may wish to live differently than others (such as yourself) want them do. This doesn't expand people's rights, it limits them.

 

[Eatomus]

It is a basic human right to make conversion to whatever race , color , sex we choose to be .
God Bless you Mr. Great White, Wealthy, Racist, Very Liberal, & Marxist Prime Minister for standing firm .
We Love You , FOR YOU !

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

That is just plain stupid. Conversion therapy is no more effective or valid that being treated by a witch doctor

Very likely true. Of course, you do know that "witch doctors" DO occasionally effect cures, don't you?

and to wait for damages before acting is just irresponsible.

That sort of depends on what level of freedom you want to have in the country, doesn't it?

Lots of people will "voluntarily" do things because of pressure, diminished capacity etc.

In which case, at law, they are NOT doing it voluntarily since "voluntary" and "informed consent" are inextricably intertwined.

and that does not mean that quacks and fraudsters should be allowed to take advantage of them.

You do know that you are advocating the ENTIRE ADVERTISING INDUSTRY, don't you?

 

[Carjosse]

no. Plenty of people of good will and good faith disagree with you when it comes to healthy human sexuality.

In this case, banning therapy for homosexuals who may wish not to live that lifestyle was presented as a "win" for their "rights" - all it does is cut off help to those who may wish to live differently than others (such as yourself) want them do. This doesn't expand people's rights, it limits them.

So do you think the FDA has no authority to regulate drugs in the US either? You have every right to buy and use proven ineffective and toxic drugs?

It is not therapy, it has no basis in scientific reality. The very concept is psychological harm.

You cannot give consent to torture, and you can not give consent based on a lie.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I don't think many people support inflicting it on a minor. That ship has sailed. What some of us want to know is why parliament unanimously forbade an adult from using such a service.

Why would someone want to know why parliament did something that it did not do?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

As I said in my OP I fully support the law, including the ban on adults getting conversion therapy as well.

Again are you saying that the justice minister does not know his own bill? He very clearly stated many times the bill bans conversion therpay even for consenting adults, as it should.

That may have been the INTENT but that is not what the change does.

 

[Eatomus]

Conversion yesterday , Conversion today, Conversion Forever !
God Bless You Mr Prime Minister !

 

[Carjosse]

That may have been the INTENT but that is not what the change does.

It does, I am more inclined to believe the justice minister, a lawyer, and the legislator who wrote and proposed the bill than you. Not only that the prime minister, no media source, other MP, or legal expert is questioning what the bill does. Conversion therapy is completely banned even for adults. The exception you keep claiming allows it cannot by definition apply to conversion therapy as fundamentally conversion therapy maintains that a certain sexuality or gender identity is superior.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

LOL. Even if a person wants counseling, they should not be able to get it.
Says this bill includes "counseling".

This sounds pretty dumb honestly.

Indeed, the bill does include "counseling" where it says

For greater certainty, this definition does not include a practice, treatment or service that relates to the exploration or development of an integrated personal identity — SUCH AS as a practice, treatment or service that relates to a person’s gender transition — and that is not based on an assumption that a particular sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression is to be preferred over another.
​

and "counseling" falls into the rubric "practice, treatment or service that relates to the exploration or development of an integrated personal identity".

IOW, you are upset because the bill doesn't allow something that it does allow (because it doesn't use a specific word that you want it to use).

 

[Deuce]

Ironically, this law actually reduces the ability of LGBT people to exercise their rights, by closing off pathways that some of them may wish to seek.

People need to open their eyes to the horrible details of "conversion therapy" because otherwise they believe shit like this.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

When psuedo-science nonsense and torture leads to suicide and mental trauma, it is very much the business of the state to step in and regulate it.

Religion sometimes "leads to suicide and mental trauma".

Does that mean that the state should step in and regulate it?

The percentage of times that prayers are answered affirmatively is a statistically insignificant number yet thousands of people extract money from even more thousands of people because of their supposed efficacy in ensuing that prayers will be answered in the affirmative. Does that mean that they should be banned from their activities?

 

[Carjosse]

Religion sometimes "leads to suicide and mental trauma".

Does that mean that the state should step in and regulate it?

The percentage of times that prayers are answered affirmatively is a statistically insignificant number yet thousands of people extract money from even more thousands of people because of their supposed efficacy in ensuing that prayers will be answered in the affirmative. Does that mean that they should be banned from their activities?

Except religion itself, the very idea is not psychologically harmful. Conversion therapy, as an entire concept is harmful on top of the actual harm and torture that results from the practice itself.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

And what you spew is super dumb crap. While it is true that any adult is free to choose and by that I mean make an informed decision as to what therapy (s)he chooses, conversion therapy is not therapy and only a complete moron would rise and defend it.

Actually "conversion therapy" IS "therapy" - it just isn't EFFECTIVE, but it can be SAFE, therapy.

If "conversion therapy" can be done safely, then I see no reason why an adult should not be allowed to voluntarily choose to undertake it PROVIDED that they are actually giving informed consent to it (and part of that informed consent would be that they know how small the chance of it actually working is).

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

It isn't 'therapy', it's brain-washing of the worst kind-born of religious dogma and ignorant bigotry. Furthermore it doesn't work. You're born either gay or heterosexual; you can't 'convert' someone who is gay into being heterosexual, or vice versa, any more than you can turn a cat into a dog.

Gay conversion therapy: Hundreds of religious leaders call for ban

More than 370 leaders from the world's major faiths join a call to stop "harmful practices".

www.bbc.co.uk

Actually the percentage of people who are born 100% heterosexual is roughly the same as the percentage who are born 100% homosexual. It isn't an "either/or" thing it is window on a sliding scale and where in their personal window a person is has a lot to do with their environment and how they were reared.

 

[cpwill]

So do you think the FDA has no authority to regulate drugs in the US either? You have every right to buy and use proven ineffective and toxic drugs?

It is not therapy, it has no basis in scientific reality. The very concept is psychological harm.

You cannot give consent to torture, and you can not give consent based on a lie.

You are incorrect on both the facts and the salient issue at hand. What is at question is not whether not a company can sell poison claiming it cures arthritis, but, whether someone can decide they prefer a different sexual expression than the one you would impose on them, and seek counseling and help in pursuing that goal.

Reverse it, and you'll quickly see the ridiculousness. If someone who has lived there life as straight feels compelled to seek sexual relationships with the same sex instead, would you deny them therapy to help them make that transition, to deal with the feelings and issues with friends, family, etc., that can come with that?

Of course not . You should also not deny it to others who make choices different than those you would impose on them, here.

 

[cpwill]

People need to open their eyes to the horrible details of "conversion therapy" because otherwise they believe shit like this.