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[W:#442]Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes arrested, charged in Jan. 6 conspiracy

The claim that the Oathtakers "knew" that Biden was the lawful president and knew what they were doing amounted to opposing the lawful authority of the United States assumes as fact that which a Seditious Conspiracy prosecution needs to prove.
That they knew Biden, instead of Trump, was the lawful president and worked in opposition to the law.

And indeed, your own note points out that they saw Jan 6 -- the day that the already state certified electoral ballots were to be counted-- as the last chance to stop what they saw as an election steal by Biden and his supporters.
They knew or should have reasonably known the legal, constitutional process for electing a President and that it was taking place at that time when they decided to attack the Capitol. It wasn't a random time that they picked there. And it doesn't matter whether they believed Biden was supposed to be President or not. It only matters that any reasonable adult in this country would know that the time they were attacking would be important to this country.
 
Not for what you claimed they were.
Don't get sucked into the derailment.

This thread is about the democracy hating anti Americans being charged with sedition.

The poster you are engaging with is trying to shift the focus to an entirely different topic.

Ignore them.
 
Don't get sucked into the derailment.

This thread is about the democracy hating anti Americans being charged with sedition.

The poster you are engaging with is trying to shift the focus to an entirely different topic.

Ignore them.

He tried, but did not succeed.
 
They knew or should have reasonably known the legal, constitutional process for electing a President and that it was taking place at that time when they decided to attack the Capitol. It wasn't a random time that they picked there. And it doesn't matter whether they believed Biden was supposed to be President or not. It only matters that any reasonable adult in this country would know that the time they were attacking would be important to this country.

I agree. And, while, Athanasius68 is not correct when he claims this is something prosecutors need to prove, as the text of the statute itself, and the case law indicate Seditious Conspiracy is general intent crime that does not require proving motive or specific intent. This is still something we can discuss in the abstract, for the sake of argument, assuming this was the case. Here Athanasius68 is trying to claim that if the Oathkeepers believed Biden was not legitimately elected then that somehow magically transforms their actions to prevent Congress from confirming Biden's victory into some sort of lawful action. But there is no "Election Fraud" exception in the Seditious Conspiracy statute. There is nothing in this thread Athanasius68 has been saying that is correct. And his arguments fail on every level. And part of the reason for that is that Athanasius68 is trying to justify the unjustifiable. Athanasius68 is just pulling stuff out of his ass to defend this far-right authoritarian militia group. This is something the Oathkeepers still could not have done even if they really really really really believed the election was stolen from Trump.
 
Except that at the time, the president, the only person with the constitutional authority to "take care that the laws" are enforced, was claiming electoral fraud ie violations of the law.
which is completely meaningless. The indicted parties conspired to by force, to oppose the lawful authority of the US. It does not matter that they think they were right to do so.
 
which is completely meaningless. The indicted parties conspired to by force, to oppose the lawful authority of the US. It does not matter that they think they were right to do so.

The point Athanasius68 is making is also not correct as a technical matter. The proceeding the Oathkeepers were delaying and/or obstructing was not an executive branch proceeding. Trump's opinion about the election in this context was meaningless. And all Athanasius68 is doing is scrambling around for excuses to defend a far right militia group that tried to overturn the election Trump lost.
 
The point Athanasius68 is making is also not correct as a technical matter. The proceeding the Oathkeepers were delaying and/or obstructing was not an executive branch proceeding. Trump's opinion about the election in this context was meaningless. And all Athanasius68 is doing is scrambling around for excuses to defend a far right militia group that tried to overturn the election Trump lost.
The Inciting, with proven lies, also needs to be dealt with by the law. I cannot see how this was not incited, from multiple individuals, in the legal sense.
If free speech surpasses Inciting to Riot, how is Inciting to Riot a crime? The one accused of Inciting to Riot would have to have something to gain, is that not met here?
 
The Inciting, with proven lies, also needs to be dealt with by the law. I cannot see how this was not incited, from multiple individuals, in the legal sense.
If free speech surpasses Inciting to Riot, how is Inciting to Riot a crime? The one accused of Inciting to Riot would have to have something to gain, is that not met here?

I think part of the problem is that there is no precedent for what Trump, his associates, and his lawyers, and what his legal allies like Sydney Powell did. Nobody has ever lied on such a massive scale before about an election being fraudulent. And Trump is still lying about.
 
I see Trumpers so damn confused and dazed by conspiracy theories, they no longer even know what they're arguing about. It makes so it's not even worth the effort to respond to their insane posts.
 
I think part of the problem is that there is no precedent for what Trump, his associates, and his lawyers, and what his legal allies like Sydney Powell did. Nobody has ever lied on such a massive scale before about an election being fraudulent. And Trump is still lying about.
No doubt, but there should be no stumbling block, because of the position held by the one accused, under the law, especially since the crime was based on proven lies.
 
I see Trumpers so damn confused and dazed by conspiracy theories, they no longer even know what they're arguing about. It makes so it's not even worth the effort to respond to their insane posts.
It hasn't been worth responding to their insane posts for some time. But at least now we finally have 11 people charged with sedition. As it should be.
 
See my post here.


Trying to tie Trump to the Oath Keepers most likely won't gain traction when you have the leader of organization complaining about Trump not saying anything to support them requiring them as "patriots" to take matters into their own hands.

Yes, Rhodes made those claims immediately after 1/6. A lot of the involved groups we're subsequently claiming they had no intentions for what occurred; but, it still occurred.

(Unfortunately, I can't get past your source's paywall)

The direct quote in your post in the other thread does seem to support your argument, though. But, it only speaks to one man's opinion, that being Rhodes. I'm still concerned with Roger Stone's involvement here, as he is a Trump confident.

Anyway, we'll have to see how this shakes out.
 
Yes, Rhodes made those claims immediately after 1/6. A lot of the involved groups we're subsequently claiming they had no intentions for what occurred; but, it still occurred.

(Unfortunately, I can't get past your source's paywall)

The direct quote in your post in the other thread does seem to support your argument, though. But, it only speaks to one man's opinion, that being Rhodes. I'm still concerned with Roger Stone's involvement here, as he is a Trump confident.

Anyway, we'll have to see how this shakes out.

The operation has Roger Stone’s fingerprints all over it.

But it takes Bannon and Stephen Miller to line up the skinheads.

And the whole bunch of them would be reckless and stupid enough to rely on a mob of skinheads to carry it off for them.
 
It hasn't been worth responding to their insane posts for some time. But at least now we finally have 11 people charged with sedition. As it should be.
I find myself saying/posting the same thing over and over to them. Things that are now accepted facts by rational people. They apparently are not getting rational information. What else is expected of people whose side puts forth whacked out conspiracies such as Jewish space lasers, and the election was stolen etc.
 
I find myself saying/posting the same thing over and over to them. Things that are now accepted facts by rational people. They apparently are not getting rational information. What else is expected of people whose side puts forth whacked out conspiracies such as Jewish space lasers, and the election was stolen etc.
The thing about facts is that Trumpeteers and Cultists don't give a **** about them. You will end up saying the same things over and over because they ignore fact and reality for the sake of their propaganda.
 
The operation has Roger Stone’s fingerprints all over it.

But it takes Bannon and Stephen Miller to line up the skinheads.

And the whole bunch of them would be reckless and stupid enough to rely on a mob of skinheads to carry it off for them.

That's a good way to put it.

Obviously, it doesn't assure guilt, but it is his M.O.

And, he owes Trump.
 
It hasn't been worth responding to their insane posts for some time. But at least now we finally have 11 people charged with sedition. As it should be.
The indictment also mentioned 'others, both known and unknown'. That seems to be more psychological than anything else, to put pressure on people.
 
There is a difference between motive with intent. I showed this to you by providing both the common and legal definitions of motive and intent. Motive can be helpful with respect to proving intent, but it's usually not necessary to prove most crimes. With respect to the Seditious Conspiracy statute, a plain reading of the statute, because it uses the word "knowingly", indicates the statute is focused on intent, not motive. The case law since Feola (1975) has dispensed with the notion that conspiracy laws in general requires a "corrupt motive." The modal statutes I referenced earlier also do not include "corrupt motive" as an element for Seditious Conspiracy. In conclusion, there is no compelling reason that anyone should be obligated to adopt your view.

Furthermore, the Supreme Court case you cite is totally irrelevant with respect to point you've been trying to make about Seditious Conspiracy requiring "corrupt motive" for it to be proven. And it makes no sense to me why you are trying to reference it. You may as well be reciting the Seditious Conspiracy statute over and over. Baldwin v. Franks does not help you make your point.

With respect to Seditious Conspiracy the prosecutors do not need to prove why (corrupt motive) they conspired to oppose the lawful authority of the U.S., nor do prosecutors need to prove the defendants knew (specific intent) they were actually conspiring to oppose the lawful authority of the U.S, instead, prosecutors need only prove that the defendants sought (general intent) to engage in actions which opposed the lawful authority of the U.S. by means of a conspiracy.

And, yes, the defendants in a Seditious Conspiracy can even engage in the act of opposing the lawful authority of the U.S. even if they are mistaken about what is or is not lawful authority.

The fact the Oathkeepers thought they were doing God's work is totally irrelevant. Also, aside from your defense being not being useful on a legal basis, it's also wrong factually. There is evidence in the indictment itself indicating the Oathkeepers knew they were opposing the lawful authority of the U.S. And the fact that they thought that the election was stolen from Trump doesn't somehow make their transform their actions into something lawful, not even in their own minds, and they knew it.

The issue isn't whether it is lawful or not to storm the Capitol.
The issue is the statute used to prosecute.

Storming the Capitol could indeed be seditious conspiracy. It could also be general conspiracy statute (which the Feola ruling specifically referenced) or obstruction of Congress. One doesn't need to be conspiring to oppose the lawful authority of the USA to be guilty of those.

One cannot inadevertently conspire to overthrow the government by force or to oppose its lawful authority by force. It has to be proven that was the objective. Otherwise ithe actions would constitute another crime.
 
This is ridiculous. Sorry, no, the President doesn't get a "do-over" election just because he made false allegations of election fraud. And, no, the President doesn't get to "take-care-that-the-laws-are-enforced" his way to a dictatorship. Your basic position on everything the President can do whatever he wants, and now that notion includes staying in office if he feels like it.

With respect to the Constitution, and the charges of Seditious Conspiracy against the Oathkeepers, Trump's false allegations of election fraud did not matter one bit. It's the job of Congress, convened for the special purpose of its duties day, to count the electoral college votes, not the job of the President. And on January 6th the Oathkeepers were trying to interfere with the lawful authority of Congress, not the President, with respect to this specific procedure.

Seditious Conspiracy does not require that the accused to have been factually correct in their claims. The government doesn't have to prove they were wrong. Just that they conspired to use force in opposition, among others, the lawful authority of the USA.
As Baldwin said, a violation of the law is not enough to prove seditious conspiracy.

A president is the only person constitutionally empowered to enforce the law. And so when he wades into specific legal issues, it can cause all sorts of problems for the prosecution (Barr once complained that Trump's commentary about specific legal issues was making it difficult for him to do his job).
And the president had said the election was stolen-- ie a 'crime' had been committed. And these guys believed it. And again, it doesn't matter whether they were factually incorrect for purposes of Seditious conspiracy.
 
The issue isn't whether it is lawful or not to storm the Capitol.
The issue is the statute used to prosecute.

Storming the Capitol could indeed be seditious conspiracy. It could also be general conspiracy statute (which the Feola ruling specifically referenced) or obstruction of Congress. One doesn't need to be conspiring to oppose the lawful authority of the USA to be guilty of those.

One cannot inadevertently conspire to overthrow the government by force or to oppose its lawful authority by force. It has to be proven that was the objective. Otherwise ithe actions would constitute another crime.

1. I understand your logic. You've explained your logic several times. You don't need to explain your logic again. Your logic just doesn't matter because the Courts have already ruled against your logic. That's why I asked you to come to the table with court rulings that contradict Feola (1975), but you couldn't do it because they don't exist. You are arguing that prosecutors need to prove motive or specific intent, but it's not there. The statute and the case law does not support your argument. Every conspiracy is essentially the same in the abstract. You can make the same argument about other conspiracies. For instance, in Feola (1975), the conspirators inadvertently conspired to assault federal officer(s), as they agreed on a plan to assault someone they didn't know was a federal officer(s), yet the Supreme Court still upheld the verdict.

2. Also, you keep using the word "objective" but that word is not in the statute. That word is not in Baldwin case from the 1800s. And the judge in the Michigan case is not using that word in the way you think he is (or maybe you already know this). When the judge in the Michigan case is describing "objective", he is describing the action to be undertaken through the conspiracy, not the motive behind the conspiracy. And, while it's true that if you can show a jury why the Oathkeepers did what they did, their motive, it can help prove their intent. But prosecutors don't need to prove anyone's motive to prove their intent. It's not necessary. With respect to the Seditious Conspiracy charge, the prosecutors only need to prove they intended to engage in the action that opposed the lawful authority of the U.S. or delayed the execution of the law.

3. Again, I must point this out, just in terms of the facts, you are incorrect. There is evidence in the indictment itself that the Oathkeepers knew what they were doing was not lawful despite the fact they thought the election was rigged. The Oathkeepers knew it was the role of Congress to confirm Biden's victory on January 6th. The Oathkeepers knew if there was a dispute it was the role of Congress, not the Oathkeepers, to resolve that dispute. And they revealed this knowledge in their communications with each other. Furthermore, there's nothing about them thinking the election was rigged that transformed their unlawful behavior into lawful behavior. And, also, let's imagine a scenario where the election actually was rigged, the Oathkeepers still can't do what they tried to do! It's still not their job to resolve the dispute. That's what Congress is for.

Given the facts outlined in the indictment, the Seditious Conspiracy charge is appropriate.
 
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Seditious Conspiracy does not require that the accused to have been factually correct in their claims. The government doesn't have to prove they were wrong. Just that they conspired to use force in opposition, among others, the lawful authority of the USA.
As Baldwin said, a violation of the law is not enough to prove seditious conspiracy.

That's a good definition. I'm glad you agree with me now. And I hope you notice this definition you just wrote does not require prosecutors to prove a defendant's motive or a defendant's specific intent, just their general intent to engage in the action agreed upon in the conspiracy. I hope you understand that when you suggest "motive" or "specific intent" is necessary you are just adding on extra stuff, that isn't there.
 
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A president is the only person constitutionally empowered to enforce the law. And so when he wades into specific legal issues, it can cause all sorts of problems for the prosecution (Barr once complained that Trump's commentary about specific legal issues was making it difficult for him to do his job). And the president had said the election was stolen-- ie a 'crime' had been committed.

There is nothing about the President's authority as executive that gives him the power to interfere into the Congressional proceeding outlined in the Constitution to select the next President. The President's opinion with respect to anything that happened on January 6th, simply does not matter. The process is specifically outlined in the Constitution. And in this process, the Constitution did not give the President veto power over the duties of Congress, okay? It was not the job of the DOJ to administer the final stages of the electoral college process on Jan 6th. So, when you're yammering on about this, it's just far right-wing authoritarian, dictatorial gobbledygook.

And these guys believed it. And again, it doesn't matter whether they were factually incorrect for purposes of Seditious conspiracy.

Yes, you're right. The fact the Oathkeepers thought there was election fraud doesn't matter. They were still engaged in a Seditious Conspiracy against the United States whether they believed that was true or not.
 
The issue isn't whether it is lawful or not to storm the Capitol.
The issue is the statute used to prosecute.

Storming the Capitol could indeed be seditious conspiracy. It could also be general conspiracy statute (which the Feola ruling specifically referenced) or obstruction of Congress. One doesn't need to be conspiring to oppose the lawful authority of the USA to be guilty of those.

One cannot inadevertently conspire to overthrow the government by force or to oppose its lawful authority by force. It has to be proven that was the objective. Otherwise ithe actions would constitute another crime.

Well, that was the political objective.

Right wing social media literally dripped with it in the days before the riot.

The memos from Mark Meadows, and Eastman’s paper (and Navarro’s as well) all document the intent to overturn an election and install the loser.

Flynn was out in public promoting the idea in December. He was all over right wing radio.

He was a participant in the political conspiracy. Taht’s well established. He may have had a role in the riot as well, although that does not seem to have been determined yet. He certainly was in the White House and or the Willard Hotel.

Navarro publicly named Trump as a co conspirator.

The only thing that remains is whether the trump cabal was directly involved in planning and executing the riot, or were in communication with those who did.

It seems obvious, as the riot leaders were right on stage with trump on Jan 5th.

Mark Meadows has all but de facto admitted to prior knowledge of a plot to start a riot.

As I said before, it’s only a matter of when, not if.
 
That's a good definition. I'm glad you agree with me now. And I hope you notice this definition you just wrote does not require prosecutors to prove a defendant's motive or a defendant's specific intent, just their general intent to engage in the action agreed upon in the conspiracy. I hope you understand that when you suggest "motive" or "specific intent" is necessary you are just adding on extra stuff, that isn't there.

Yes-- to prove their intent and motive to oppose the "lawful" authority of the government.
That is what needs to happen.
The other day President Biden said (in a general sense and not specific to these people) the objectives of 1/6 was to "subvert" the Constitution.
Something like that is the essence of 'sedition"- its concept. Claims that actions that occurred were designed to "subvert" the Constitution has to be proven, not merely assumed, for a seditious conspiracy conviction.
 
which is completely meaningless. The indicted parties conspired to by force, to oppose the lawful authority of the US. It does not matter that they think they were right to do so.

These guys are saying this:
There were many electoral ballots that were fraudulently cast for Joe Biden in numerous states, resulting in a fraudulent electors being being elected and subsequently submitting unlawful votes. On 1/6 Congress was scheduled to count these 'unlawful votes.
In other words, as far as these oathkeeper types were concerned, it was Congress on 1/6 who was seeking to exercise unlawful authority.

The statute doesn't require prosecutors to prove the accused is incorrect (the DOJ would not have to prove that Biden was the lawful president). It also doesn't say its a defense if the accused show they were correct (it wouldn't matter if they were somehow able to prove that Biden was elected unlawfully).

The DOJ has to prove that when these people conspired to use force against a lawful authority, they believed they were conspiring against a lawful authority.
 
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