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[W:#442]Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes arrested, charged in Jan. 6 conspiracy

Especially so since it is the Democrats who are trying to ram through major election overhaul on single party vote, which, surprise surprise, would do little else than to advantage them, and the same level of deception, calling it a 'Voter Rights' bill, when it's nothing more than an 'Advantage Democrat's' bill.

Democrats are constantly pulling this kinda of crap, so much so, the safer, most prudent position is simply to not believe a word that comes from their mouths, unless proven by 3 reliable sources otherwise, and maybe even then not.
Making it easier for people to vote, limiting gerrymandering, and reducing voter annulment is not "Advantage Democrat" but rather advantage democracy.
 
I will concede to you the last word over this sidebar discussion. I'll simply cite this . . .



. . . as testimony that contrary to what you believe Hillary never really did concede the election. Her beliefs are what triggered a campaign to remove Trump from office. A campaign that continues today with efforts to disqualify him from running in 2024. A prospect the DNC fears.

You may have the last word.

Officially, she conceded the next day, which is the important part. She did not go on and on publicly and make an attempt to otherthrow the decision of the electorate through a violent mob ginned up on lies as Trump did. The things she stated in that interview are unofficial personal opinion. And again, Trump has not officially conceded the 2020 election to this day. This is a day and night comparison in that regard.
As far as Trump being removed from office, I'll give you the first Impeachment. With the second (!) Impeachment for inciting an attack on the U.S. Government, there's no doubt he should have been removed. No other President of the United States has ever been linked to something that heinous against this country. Do I think he will suffer any consequences? There's no indication of that at this time, which will have to be seen as the precedent set for any future such attempts from any side. The message will be, sure you can try it and be successful or not and not have to worry about any official action. This must not stand.
 
Yeah. Lots of people make those claims and they are BS lies.

Telling someone you don’t like CRT is hardly a death threat.
We have Democrats threatening US citizens from within the Capital building in DC. Maxine Waters has called on leftwingers to get in the faces of rightwingers, yell, scream, run them out of restaurants or wherever they see them. She has supported or condoned BLM/Antifa riots and the burning down of cities.

 
The Feola decsion references the specific general conspiracy statute.

That's okay. If the Courts keep using the same general principle for different kinds of conspiracies we can safely assume the same principle would also be applied to seditious conspiracies.

Seditious Conspiracy is itself its own statute.
Its not relevant.

It's directly relevant because it's still a conspiracy and the same logic applies. Every single thing you are saying about Seditious Conspiracy can be applied to any other conspiracy. And when people have made exact same argument applied in other contexts the Courts have said a corrupt motive isn't necessary. That's how case precedent works.

Also, because seditious conspiracy isn't charged as often, it would make sense we don't have the same exact case law developed around it as we would with general conspiracies.

As far as seditious conspiracy itself, SCOTUS has ruled it is applied when the objective is to oppose by force the lawful authority of the USA.

Oh really? Is that true Athanasius68? That's very interesting. Would you be so kind as to actually cite the ruling you're referencing? Which case is that? I am very curious.
 
Making it easier for people to vote, limiting gerrymandering, and reducing voter annulment is not "Advantage Democrat" but rather advantage democracy.
Bought that gross over simplification of what this bill and similar ones actually do, have you?

Voting Act Doesn’t Deliver “For The People”
by Richard A. Epstein, Monday, March 15, 2021​
The “For the People Act” (FTP), designated HR 1, is by far the most comprehensive federal voting rights act ever proposed. The bill was introduced into the House of Representatives on January 4 and passed there along strict party lines two months later—220 for and 210 against. This divisive legislation represents a concerted effort by the House Democratic majority to consolidate and build on its gains from the 2020 election cycle. Its unabashed supporters, such as New York University’s Brennan Center for Justice, hail the legislation as “a roadmap to an inclusive, diverse, and equitable democracy.”​
While there is much to criticize about the act’s hamhanded efforts to expand the regulation of campaign finance and disclosure requirements, I will concentrate on the FTP’s effort to organize a federal takeover of the electoral process as it applies to members of Congress and the president via the Electoral College. Its proposed changes are manifold. The FTP would mandate an expansion of automatic registration and same-day voting. It would create a two-week early-voting period and extend the franchise in federal elections to all former convicts. Finally, it would allow those citizens who lack any appropriate photo ID to gain access to the polls with sworn affidavits to their identity.​
For all its ambition, FTP is vulnerable to both constitutional and administrative challenges. On the former, the new legislation appears to treat states as extensions of the federal government. By dictating the kinds of rules and regulations that states must adopt in order to comply with federal law, FTP may intrude on state authority to conduct elections. In addition, the act raises a host of practical problems, including the need for dual administration of state and federal requirements of the same election.​
Constitutional Problems
. . .​
Take Potential Fraud Seriously
. . .​
 
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(Continued)
Also:

How Many of H.R. 1’s Provisions Are Unconstitutional?
By Walter Olson, APRIL 20, 2021 4:15PM​
How many provisions of H.R. 1, if enacted, would be struck down by the courts as unconstitutional? It’s not clear anyone has tried to compile a full list, but the likely answer is, “quite a few.”​
To recap, H.R. 1 is the sprawling omnibus bill passed by the House on party lines that would assert federal control over dozens of areas related to elections, political speech, official ethics, and topics further afield. S. 1 is its Senate version. Earlier posts in this space have discussed problems with it here (speech‐hostile, bossy in areas long left to the sound discretion of the states, largely unrelated to “voting rights” rationale), here (places impossible burdens on local election administrators), here (experienced Democrats have doubts about its consequences and practicality), and here (replaces bipartisan structure of Federal Election Commission with one conducing to one‐party control).​
* Perhaps the bill’s best known menace to the First Amendment arises from its threat to chill the speech of nonprofit organizations and advocacy groups that speak out on legislation. It would greatly expand the definitions of “electioneering” and “public communication” so as to require disclosure of the names of many persons who donate to organizations that engage in policy‐oriented speech. To quote an earlier post:​
Per a critical account by two ACLU lawyers, that would menace the confidentiality of a nonprofit that bought an ad “criticizing House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D‐Calif.) for supporting immigration reform or criticizing Sen. Ted Cruz (R‐Tex.) for opposing the Equality Act.” That “could directly interfere with the ability of many to engage in political speech about causes that they care about and that impact their lives by imposing new and onerous disclosure requirements on nonprofits committed to advancing those causes.”​
But that’s only one among many problems.​
* The bill’s passages claiming constitutional authority, and many of its advocates, point out that Article 1, Section 4 of the Constitution (the “Elections Clause”) gives Congress broad power to enact laws governing the “time, places, and manner” of elections for U.S. House and Senate. That does establish a broad zone of discretion to enact laws governing Congressional elections, even if it’s not clear whether the phrase “time, places, and manner” can stretch to include all the different changes and practices the law would mandate.​
. . . .​
 
(Continued)
Even the left says there are issued with this bill.

How to Fix H.R. 1
The current bill lacks robust support—and its measures might create new problems.​
Reihan Salam, APRIL 14, 2021​
The For the People Act is the centerpiece of the Democratic Party’s effort to remake American democracy. The legislation has galvanized a large and well-funded coalition of left-wing activists, elected officials, and advocacy groups, many of whom still insist that victory is within reach. Indeed, in light of the controversy over Georgia’s new voter-access law, this coalition might soon expand to include some of the nation’s leading corporate executives. Nevertheless, the bill, which passed in the House, seems doomed in the Senate. The most obvious problem it faces is that Joe Manchin, the all-important senator from West Virginia, has made it exceedingly clear that if he’s going to get behind voting-rights legislation, it will have to be bipartisan.​
Even though the measure is co-sponsored by the 49 other senators who caucus with the Democrats, and was opposed by only one House Democrat, Manchin is far from alone in his misgivings. If there were a serious danger that the bill in its current form might be signed into law, its support among congressional Democrats would quickly evaporate.​
If the reform movement wants to see changes actually enacted, instead of denouncing the bill’s opponents as enemies of democracy, it ought to consider appealing to the sensibilities of Manchin and other political misfits who are wary of framing democratic reform as a partisan cause.​

Presenting this bill, and similar bills, as they presently are is the politicians typical dishonest misleading and mischaracterizing legislation.
 
Yea, sure, if he chose not to run perhaps nothing would have happened. But he did run, and like politicians before him (Clinton for one) thought the election was stolen. Believing that and actions taken can make all the difference between a riot and calling for a democratic right. Idiots will riot. Law abiding citizens will use the process outlined in the Constitution to right a perceived wrong. The latter has been done before.

Stop trying to derail the thread. I know it's embarassing to have your political allies engage in a conspiracy to commit sedition, but it's a bad look if all you do is engage in all manner of whataboutisms.

Especially so since it is the Democrats who are trying to ram through major election overhaul on single party vote, which, surprise surprise, would do little else than to advantage them, and the same level of deception, calling it a 'Voter Rights' bill, when it's nothing more than an 'Advantage Democrat's' bill.

Democrats are constantly pulling this kinda of crap, so much so, the safer, most prudent position is simply to not believe a word that comes from their mouths, unless proven by 3 reliable sources otherwise, and maybe even then not.

This is the second time @eohrnberger has attempted to derail this thread.

Stop trying to derail the thread. I know it's embarassing to have your political allies engage in a conspiracy to commit sedition, but it's a bad look if all you do is engage in all manner of whataboutisms.

And everyone else should pin these people down, and ask them if it's okay to make false allegations in order to overturn elections, or if they think it's okay for people like the Oathkeepers to engage in a conspiracy to commit sedition. Talk to them about the details of the topic of this case. And if they go off on some tangent about Benghazi or Clinton's e-mail or some other bullshit then just ignore them.

This is the most important topic of our times, and these Trump supporters are talking about Clinton and mocking Democrat attempts to make voting more accessible? **** that. Make them confront the ugly truth.
 
That's okay. If the Courts keep using the same general principle for different kinds of conspiracies we can safely assume the same principle would also be applied to seditious conspiracies.



It's directly relevant because it's still a conspiracy and the same logic applies. Every single thing you are saying about Seditious Conspiracy can be applied to any other conspiracy. And when people have made exact same argument applied in other contexts the Courts have said a corrupt motive isn't necessary. That's how case precedent works.

Also, because seditious conspiracy isn't charged as often, it would make sense we don't have the same exact case law developed around it as we would with general conspiracies.



Oh really? Is that true Athanasius68? That's very interesting. Would you be so kind as to actually cite the ruling you're referencing? Which case is that? I am very curious.

The below decision was cited as part of the reasoning to throw out the most recent Seditious Conspiracy prosecution by the DOJ (2012).

Moreover, claiming that the government would not need to prove that the motive behind a seditious conspiracy prosecution would be necessary, guts the historical rationale for the statute. The logic behind the statute is to charge those whose actions indicate they are doing that which the statute prohibits.

 
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The Feola decsion references the specific general conspiracy statute.
Seditious Conspiracy is itself its own statute.
Its not relevant.

As far as seditious conspiracy itself, SCOTUS has ruled it is applied when the objective is to oppose by force the lawful authority of the USA.
And the people indicted, specifically opposed the lawful authority of the US.
 
The below decision was cited as part of the reasoning to throw out the most recent Seditious Conspiracy prosecution by the DOJ (2012).


Thank you for posting references this time. I appreciate it.

I read both the Lawfare Blog Article, I read the section of the Judge's ruling in the 2012 Michigan Seditious Conspiracy case pertaining to the Baldwin V. Franks Supreme Court ruling, and I scanned both the Baldwin V. Franks Supreme Court ruling and the Judge's ruling in the 2012 Seditious Conspiracy case. If I have missed something, let me know.

Neither the Judge's ruling in the 2012 Michigan Seditious Conspiracy case, nor Baldwin v. Franks which the judge referenced, has anything to do with your claim that the prosecutors must prove a corrupt motive in addition to intent. With respect to the 2012 Michigan Seditious Conspiracy case the judge explained that the prosecution failed to put forward evidence proving the various elements of a traditional Seditious Conspiracy case, of which corrupt motive WAS NOT an element the Judge listed as being required:.

Let's read what the Judge said about Baldwin V. Franks:


18 U.S.C.A. § 2384. Specifically, the Government charges Defendants with conspiring to “oppose by force the authority” of the United States Government. Essential to that charge, Defendants must have agreed to oppose some positive assertion of authority by the United States Government; mere violations of the law do not suffice. In Baldwin, the Supreme Court discussed what must be proven to convict a defendant of seditious conspiracy. The defendant was charged with seditious conspiracy for conspiring with others to unlawfully arrest and expel a group of Chinese citizens from a California town where they lawfully resided. 120 U.S. at 681. The defendant and his coconspirators violently removed the Chinese citizens from their homes and businesses and forcibly placed them on a steam-boat that was departing the town. Id. The Supreme Court held that these facts could not support a charge of seditious conspiracy because the force was exerted against the Chinese citizens, and not against the government in its efforts to protect them. Id. at 694. In reaching its conclusion, the Supreme Court made clear that to be convicted of seditious conspiracy, one must specifically oppose by force the government of the United States while it is exerting its authority. The Court stated: All, therefore, depends on that part of the section which provides a punishment for ‘opposing’ by force the authority of the United States . . . . This evidently implies force against the government as a government. To constitute an offense under the first clause, the authority of the government must be opposed; that is to say, force must be brought to resist some positive assertion of authority by the government. A mere violation of law is not enough; there must be an attempt to prevent the actual exercise of authority. Id. at 693. Because Baldwin’s conspiracy was for “ill treatment itself,” and “not for hindering or delaying the United States in the execution of their measures to prevent it,” the charge could not stand. Id. at 694.

This has NOTHING to do with your claim that prosecutors must prove a corrupt motive to successfully convict a defendant in a Seditious Conspiracy case.


You are not going to snow me over.

I do my homework.

Try again.


guts the historical rationale for the statute.

The logic behind the statute is to charge those whose actions indicate they are doing that which the statute prohibits.

And in this case it is opposing or delaying the lawful authority of the United States. That's what the statute prohibits. And it doesn't matter whether or not the defendants in a Seditious Conspiracy Case think they are doing God's work, they still cannot oppose or delay the lawful authority of the United States. Their corrupt motive does not matter.

Every person who has ever engaged in sedition or treason throughout the whole of recorded human history has always thought they were the hero of their own story, and they have always thought what they were doing is right. And it's ridiculous to suggest that the prosecutors must somehow first prove that the Oathkeepers knew that Biden was legitimately elected. Whatever false notions they had about the world doesn't matter. They still can't try to overturn an election like they did on Jan 6th. They do not have the authority to do so.
 
Neither the Judge's ruling in the 2012 Michigan Seditious Conspiracy case, nor Baldwin v. Franks which the judge referenced, has anything to do with your claim that the prosecutors must prove a corrupt motive in addition to intent. With respect to the 2012 Michigan Seditious Conspiracy case the judge explained that the prosecution failed to put forward evidence proving the various elements of a traditional Seditious Conspiracy case, of which corrupt motive WAS NOT an element the Judge listed as being required:.


18 U.S.C.A. § 2384. Specifically, the Government charges Defendants with conspiring to “oppose by force the authority” of the United States Government. Essential to that charge, Defendants must have agreed to oppose some positive assertion of authority by the United States Government; mere violations of the law do not suffice. In Baldwin, the Supreme Court discussed what must be proven to convict a defendant of seditious conspiracy. The defendant was charged with seditious conspiracy for conspiring with others to unlawfully arrest and expel a group of Chinese citizens from a California town where they lawfully resided. 120 U.S. at 681. The defendant and his coconspirators violently removed the Chinese citizens from their homes and businesses and forcibly placed them on a steam-boat that was departing the town. Id. The Supreme Court held that these facts could not support a charge of seditious conspiracy because the force was exerted against the Chinese citizens, and not against the government in its efforts to protect them. Id. at 694. In reaching its conclusion, the Supreme Court made clear that to be convicted of seditious conspiracy, one must specifically oppose by force the government of the United States while it is exerting its authority. The Court stated: All, therefore, depends on that part of the section which provides a punishment for ‘opposing’ by force the authority of the United States . . . . This evidently implies force against the government as a government. To constitute an offense under the first clause, the authority of the government must be opposed; that is to say, force must be brought to resist some positive assertion of authority by the government. A mere violation of law is not enough; there must be an attempt to prevent the actual exercise of authority. Id. at 693. Because Baldwin’s conspiracy was for “ill treatment itself,” and “not for hindering or delaying the United States in the execution of their measures to prevent it,” the charge could not stand. Id. at 694.

This has NOTHING to do with your claim that prosecutors must prove a corrupt motive to successfully convict a defendant in a Seditious Conspiracy case.


And in this case it is opposing or delaying the lawful authority of the United States. That's what the statute prohibits. And it doesn't matter whether or not the defendants in a Seditious Conspiracy Case think they are doing God's work, they still cannot oppose or delay the lawful authority of the United States. Their corrupt motive does not matter.

Every person who has ever engaged in sedition or treason throughout the whole of recorded human history has always thought they were the hero of their own story, and they have always thought what they were doing is right. And it's ridiculous to suggest that the prosecutors must somehow first prove that the Oathkeepers knew that Biden was legitimately elected. Whatever false notions they had about the world doesn't matter. They still can't try to overturn an election like they did on Jan 6th. They do not have the authority to do so.


One would think that conspiring to overthrow the government by force, or conspiring to oppose the lawful authority of the USA is by definition a corrupt motive...

As cited from above---
18 U.S.C.A. § 2384. Specifically, the Government charges Defendants with conspiring to “oppose by force the authority” of the United States Government. Essential to that charge, Defendants must have agreed to oppose some positive assertion of authority by the United States Government; mere violations of the law do not suffice.

So to apply that SCOTUS decision in Baldwin v Franks to the present charges, it would mean that it is not enough to to have stormed the Capitol (even in 'military formation'), and/or to prove they destroyed property or proved they obstructed the work of Congress. Destroying property and obstructing Congress are "mere violations of the law.
The Seditious Conspiracy statute requires that the government prove the objective was to oppose, by force, the lawful authority of the USA. And that can't come about unless the defendants are aware of their actions are and what they are doing. They can't back into; they can't by 'accident ' conspire to oppose the authority of the USA by force, or by 'accident' conspire to overthrow the government by force.
 
And the people indicted, specifically opposed the lawful authority of the US.

Except that at the time, the president, the only person with the constitutional authority to "take care that the laws" are enforced, was claiming electoral fraud ie violations of the law.
 
One would think that conspiring to overthrow the government by force, or conspiring to oppose the lawful authority of the USA is by definition a corrupt motive...

As cited from above---
18 U.S.C.A. § 2384. Specifically, the Government charges Defendants with conspiring to “oppose by force the authority” of the United States Government. Essential to that charge, Defendants must have agreed to oppose some positive assertion of authority by the United States Government; mere violations of the law do not suffice.

So to apply that SCOTUS decision in Baldwin v Franks to the present charges, it would mean that it is not enough to to have stormed the Capitol (even in 'military formation'), and/or to prove they destroyed property or proved they obstructed the work of Congress. Destroying property and obstructing Congress are "mere violations of the law.
The Seditious Conspiracy statute requires that the government prove the objective was to oppose, by force, the lawful authority of the USA. And that can't come about unless the defendants are aware of their actions are and what they are doing. They can't back into; they can't by 'accident ' conspire to oppose the authority of the USA by force, or by 'accident' conspire to overthrow the government by force.

There is a difference between motive with intent. I showed this to you by providing both the common and legal definitions of motive and intent. Motive can be helpful with respect to proving intent, but it's usually not necessary to prove most crimes. With respect to the Seditious Conspiracy statute, a plain reading of the statute, because it uses the word "knowingly", indicates the statute is focused on intent, not motive. The case law since Feola (1975) has dispensed with the notion that conspiracy laws in general requires a "corrupt motive." The modal statutes I referenced earlier also do not include "corrupt motive" as an element for Seditious Conspiracy. In conclusion, there is no compelling reason that anyone should be obligated to adopt your view.

Furthermore, the Supreme Court case you cite is totally irrelevant with respect to point you've been trying to make about Seditious Conspiracy requiring "corrupt motive" for it to be proven. And it makes no sense to me why you are trying to reference it. You may as well be reciting the Seditious Conspiracy statute over and over. Baldwin v. Franks does not help you make your point.

With respect to Seditious Conspiracy the prosecutors do not need to prove why (corrupt motive) they conspired to oppose the lawful authority of the U.S., nor do prosecutors need to prove the defendants knew (specific intent) they were actually conspiring to oppose the lawful authority of the U.S, instead, prosecutors need only prove that the defendants sought (general intent) to engage in actions which opposed the lawful authority of the U.S. by means of a conspiracy.

And, yes, the defendants in a Seditious Conspiracy can even engage in the act of opposing the lawful authority of the U.S. even if they are mistaken about what is or is not lawful authority.

The fact the Oathkeepers thought they were doing God's work is totally irrelevant. Also, aside from your defense being not being useful on a legal basis, it's also wrong factually. There is evidence in the indictment itself indicating the Oathkeepers knew they were opposing the lawful authority of the U.S. And the fact that they thought that the election was stolen from Trump doesn't somehow make their transform their actions into something lawful, not even in their own minds, and they knew it.
 
Except that at the time, the president, the only person with the constitutional authority to "take care that the laws" are enforced, was claiming electoral fraud ie violations of the law.

This is ridiculous. Sorry, no, the President doesn't get a "do-over" election just because he made false allegations of election fraud. And, no, the President doesn't get to "take-care-that-the-laws-are-enforced" his way to a dictatorship. Your basic position on everything the President can do whatever he wants, and now that notion includes staying in office if he feels like it.

With respect to the Constitution, and the charges of Seditious Conspiracy against the Oathkeepers, Trump's false allegations of election fraud did not matter one bit. It's the job of Congress, convened for the special purpose of its duties day, to count the electoral college votes, not the job of the President. And on January 6th the Oathkeepers were trying to interfere with the lawful authority of Congress, not the President, with respect to this specific procedure.
 
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