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[W:#442]Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes arrested, charged in Jan. 6 conspiracy

I didn't. But I do see a looking-for-a-way-out for Trump in your comments. It's quite apparent that none of the violent events of January 6th would have happened if it wasn't for Trump, his rally and his rhetoric.
Yea, sure, if he chose not to run perhaps nothing would have happened. But he did run, and like politicians before him (Clinton for one) thought the election was stolen. Believing that and actions taken can make all the difference between a riot and calling for a democratic right. Idiots will riot. Law abiding citizens will use the process outlined in the Constitution to right a perceived wrong. The latter has been done before.
 
Then why not charge EVERYONE who entered the building that day with seditious conspiracy?

I am not omniscient, and I don't have access to any of the evidence the FBI has access to, but I don't think the actions most of the Trump supporters took that day met the elements of the crime of seditious conspiracy as described in the federal statutes. I didn't even think the Oathkeepers would ever be charged with seditious conspiracy, to be honest. I've even made multiple statements on this forum to that effect over the past year. So, this indictment comes as something of a shock to me. And my rationale was as follows: the insurrection of Jan 6th was mostly a meme-inspired or propaganda-driven event. Trump is operating at an entirely different level than anyone has in the past. I hate Trump and I think he is a stupid man, but when it comes to the media and spreading propaganda he's a genius. He's better than Joseph Goebbels ever was at creating and using propaganda. Why? There is no federal or state statute that makes it a crime to make false allegations of election fraud in order to overturn an election. All Trump had to do was lie about that, and that would be enough to convince his authoritarian supporters to try to overturn the election. It was not necessary for Trump to conspire with anyone. All he had to do to was go to a microphone and claim the election was stolen from him and all of his cultists would scurry around to reinvent the reality that Trump demanded. And we see that sort of behavior in actions like this:


I still find it shocking that Republicans and Trump supporter had the audacity to make false allegations of election fraud, accuse Democrats of fraud, and then immediately turn around and engage in fraud. It's crazy. But Trump supporters and Republicans think it's a-okay.

I think this sort of general, anything-goes attitude that Trump supporters and Republicans now have is far more damaging to our country than anything the Oathkeepers did. We can throw the Oathkeepers in prison. We cannot convince Trump supporters and Republicans that it is not okay to make false allegations in order to overturn an election. Just look around this thread, and this forum. Republicans and Trump supporters contributing to this forum either don't give a shit about what Trump did or they believe his lies.

This is not a problem Democrats can solve. Republicans have to choose for themselves that it's not okay to lie in this way. Republicans have to choose for themselves to put the interests of the Republic above their own interests.
 
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The answer should be obvious. Motive-- they would have to prove motive.

Its easier to prove that the fellows who smashed doors and windows engaged in property destruction, than to prove they smashed doors and windows because they thought Biden was the lawful president, and yet were pushing for Trump to stay in office.

Proving motive, proving mind-set, is has to be proven for Seditious conspiracy.

If you cannot find a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that contradicts the precedent set by the U.S. Supreme Court in United States v. Feola we don't have anything more to discuss as it concerns this issue. [see my previous posts about the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in United States v. Feola]
 
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I am not omniscient, and I don't have access to any of the evidence the FBI has access to, but I don't think the actions most of the Trump supporters took that day met the elements of the crime of seditious conspiracy as described in the federal statutes. I didn't even think the Oathkeepers would ever be charged with seditious conspiracy, to be honest. I've even made multiple statements on this forum to that effect over the past year.
While I agree wholeheartedly with your post, my friend, I reached a different conclusion at the outset. Obviously not every participant is subject to a sedition charge, but I identified a number of the activities as sedition, compared the actions to the law, and felt that, eventually, a number of people would be so charged. It's interesting to note that few on the forum have ever address the formation of a sedition strikeforce within the DoJ. They viewed it as sedition very early on, and Acting US Attorney Michael Sherwin said it out loud in March of 2021: Evidence in Capitol attack investigation trending toward sedition charges, departing chief says (WaPo). Like you, I don't know where it will lead, and how far up it will go, but the evidence that is coming out is leading to some serious conclusions.
 
If they threaten other people? He’ll yeah.
Why is it okay to threaten someone?
No proof they threatened anyone. Loudon Cointy School is the one being investigated now and I look forward to jail time for all of them.
 
Yea, sure, if he chose not to run perhaps nothing would have happened. But he did run, and like politicians before him (Clinton for one) thought the election was stolen. Believing that and actions taken can make all the difference between a riot and calling for a democratic right. Idiots will riot. Law abiding citizens will use the process outlined in the Constitution to right a perceived wrong. The latter has been done before.
Clinton conceded the next day. Trump still hasn't conceded over a year later and is still lying today about the election being stolen. Trump is the standout anomaly. And let's finally put it to rest: it's all about the inability of the right to abide an election they plainly and simply lost. That's not very good sportsmanship, or very American.
 
You made that up.

No mysterious “they” are investigating the Loudoun County BoE.

The right wing astroturf attack was first publicized in Loudoun County because Loudoun County would be a swing county in the upcoming gubernatorial election.

The GOP knew Youngkin needed to avoid falling into the trap of being forced to grovel to Trump.

But he needed Trump’s voters.

So, they needed to push the bigotry button without tying it to Trump.

The campaign triggered the trump base. That’s for sure.
Loudon is being investigated. So sorry. Orange suits on the way.
 
Clinton conceded the next day. Trump still hasn't conceded over a year later and is still lying today about the election being stolen. Trump is the standout anomaly. And let's finally put it to rest: it's all about the inability of the right to abide an election they plainly and simply lost. That's not very good sportsmanship, or very American.
Much tado bout nuthin
 
The claim that the Oathtakers "knew" that Biden was the lawful president and knew what they were doing amounted to opposing the lawful authority of the United States assumes as fact that which a Seditious Conspiracy prosecution needs to prove.
That they knew Biden, instead of Trump, was the lawful president and worked in opposition to the law.

As a legal defense, your argument fails. As I have already thoroughly demonstrated, and as you've dishonestly ignored [see my previous posts about the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in United States v. Feola], the prosecutors don't need to prove that the Oathkeepers knew the false allegations of election fraud were bullshit. Furthermore, the Oathkeepers knew they were engaging in a conspiracy to delay the execution of the law without respect to whether or not they believed Trump's propaganda that the election was rigged. Your argument functions only as a political defense or a public relations ploy. As a legal defense, your argument sucks.

It doesn't matter if Rhodes and the Oathkeepers thought they were doing God's work.

It doesn't matter if YOU think Rhodes and the Oathkeepers were doing God's work

It doesn't matter if Trump supporters, in general, think Rhodes and the Oathkeepers were doing God's work.

And everyone throughout the history of civilization engaged in any form of treason or sedition always thought they were fighting for a righteous cause. It's simply not a requirement of the seditious conspiracy statute that the people engaged in the seditious conspiracy thought they were doing something bad. If you are putting this notion forward as a legal argument, it's not going to work. Your argument sucks as a legal argument.

And indeed, your own note points out that they saw Jan 6 -- the day that the already state certified electoral ballots were to be counted-- as the last chance to stop what they saw as an election steal by Biden and his supporters.

Yeah, and they're not allowed to do that. They conspired to delay the execution of the law.


And, not only that, I think the prosecutors have a really good case that they planned to carry this conspiracy out using violence.
 
If you cannot find a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that contradicts the precedent set by the U.S. Supreme Court in United States v. Feola we don't have anything more to discuss as it concerns this issue.

It doesn't concern the issue.
The Seditious Conspiracy statute states, among others, that two or more people have have to conspire to oppose the lawful authority of the USA.
In other words, the OBJECTIVE is to work together to oppose the lawful authority of the USA.
The accused then has to know what that law is and that they are conspiring to oppose it. They can't back into it.
That's why the indictment states they "knowingly" conspired.
 
I am not omniscient, and I don't have access to any of the evidence the FBI has access to, but I don't think the actions most of the Trump supporters took that day met the elements of the crime of seditious conspiracy as described in the federal statutes. I didn't even think the Oathkeepers would ever be charged with seditious conspiracy, to be honest. I've even made multiple statements on this forum to that effect over the past year. So, this indictment comes as something of a shock to me. And my rationale was as follows: the insurrection of Jan 6th was mostly a meme-inspired or propaganda-driven event. Trump is operating at an entirely different level than anyone has in the past. I hate Trump and I think he is a stupid man, but when it comes to the media and spreading propaganda he's a genius. He's better than Joseph Goebbels ever was at creating and using propaganda. Why? There is no federal or state statute that makes it a crime to make false allegations of election fraud in order to overturn an election. All Trump had to do was lie about that, and that would be enough to convince his authoritarian supporters to try to overturn the election. It was not necessary for Trump to conspire with anyone. All he had to do to was go to a microphone and claim the election was stolen from him and all of his cultists would scurry around to reinvent the reality that Trump demanded. And we see that sort of behavior in actions like this:


I still find it shocking that Republicans and Trump supporter had the audacity to make false allegations of election fraud, accuse Democrats of fraud, and then immediately turn around and engage in fraud. It's crazy. But Trump supporters and Republicans think it's a-okay.

I think this sort of general, anything-goes attitude that Trump supporters and Republicans now have is far more damaging to our country than anything the Oathkeepers did. We can throw the Oathkeepers in prison. We cannot convince Trump supporters and Republicans that it is not okay to make false allegations in order to overturn an election. Just look around this thread, and this forum. Republicans and Trump supporters contributing to this forum either don't give a shit about what Trump did or they believe his lies.

This is not a problem Democrats can solve. Republicans have to choose for themselves that it's not okay to lie in this way. Republicans have to choose for themselves to put the interests of the Republic above their own interests.

Talk about deflections and going off thread! It was YOUR argument that people do not need to know they are conspiring to be accused of conspiracy or know they are breaking the law to be accused of breaking the law.
All this other tirade about Trump and Goebbels is completely off point.
 
As a legal defense, your argument fails. As I have already thoroughly demonstrated, and as you've dishonestly ignored [see my previous posts about the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in United States v. Feola], the prosecutors don't need to prove that the Oathkeepers knew the false allegations of election fraud were bullshit. Furthermore, the Oathkeepers knew they were engaging in a conspiracy to delay the execution of the law without respect to whether or not they believed Trump's propaganda that the election was rigged. Your argument functions only as a political defense or a public relations ploy. As a legal defense, your argument sucks.

It doesn't matter if Rhodes and the Oathkeepers thought they were doing God's work.

It doesn't matter if YOU think Rhodes and the Oathkeepers were doing God's work

It doesn't matter if Trump supporters, in general, think Rhodes and the Oathkeepers were doing God's work.

And everyone throughout the history of civilization engaged in any form of treason or sedition always thought they were fighting for a righteous cause. It's simply not a requirement of the seditious conspiracy statute that the people engaged in the seditious conspiracy thought they were doing something bad. If you are putting this notion forward as a legal argument, it's not going to work. Your argument sucks as a legal argument.



Yeah, and they're not allowed to do that. They conspired to delay the execution of the law.


And, not only that, I think the prosecutors have a really good case that they planned to carry this conspiracy out using violence.
Those that are ignorant are the most obstinate in their ignorance, aren't they?
 
That's why the indictment states they "knowingly" conspired.

Frequently, statutes don't clearly state whether the offenses they describe require specific or general intent. Rather, courts determine a crime's intent element by following the general rule that terms like "knowingly" and "voluntarily" denote general intent (as in "knowingly and voluntarily use force against another"). Terms that describe something more than knowledge and voluntariness, like "purpose," tend to indicate specific intent (as in "knowingly and voluntarily use force against someone with the intent to disable him or her"). (U.S. v. Peralta, 930 F. Supp. 1523 (S.D. Fla. 1996).)


The MPC and Mens Rea: Most states use the MPC's classification for various mentes reae. The MPC organizes and defines culpable states of mind into four hierarchical categories:

acting purposely - the defendant had an underlying conscious object to act
acting knowingly - the defendant is practically certain that the conduct will cause a particular result
acting recklessly - The defendant consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustified risk
acting negligently - The defendant was not aware of the risk, but should have been aware of the risk


In United States v. Feola, 420 U.S. 671 (1975), the defendant was convicted of a Section 371 conspiracy to assault a federal officer while the officer was engaged in the performance of his official duties. The underlying substantive offense, 18 U.S.C. 111, did not require knowledge that the intended victim was a federal officer. The issue before the Court was whether the government was nonetheless required to prove such knowledge under the conspiracy statute. The Court held that it was not, concluding that "where a substantive offense embodies only a requirement of mens rea as to each of its elements, the general federal conspiracy statute requires no more." 420 U.S. at 692. The Court relied for that conclusion chiefly on the language of the conspiracy statute itself, observing that "nothing on the face" of that statute would require greater knowledge on the part of those conspiring to commit an offense than is required to actually commit the offense. Id. at 687.

Since Feola, the courts of appeals, in reliance on that decision, have repeatedly rejected claims that a "corrupt motive" or knowledge of the law is an element of a gambling conspiracy.
See United States v. Blair, 54 F.3d 639, 642-643 (10th Cir.) (conspiracy to violate Section 1084(a)), cert. denied, 516 U.S. 883 (1995); United States v. Murray, 928 F.2d 1242, 1251 (1st Cir. 1991); United States v. Leon, 534 F.2d 667, 674-675 (6th Cir. 1976); see also United States v. Thomas, 887 F.2d 1341, 1346-1347 (9th Cir. 1989) (holding that knowledge of the law is not an element of a conspiracy to engage in "apparently innocent conduct"). No federal court of appeals has cited the Powell doctrine with approval since Feola. Nor do the standard jury instructions on conspiracy include an element of "corrupt motive." See, e.g., Edward J. Devitt, Federal Jury Practice and Instructions § 28.03 (4th ed. 1990). And, as the court of appeals noted (Pet. App. 6a-7a), the American Law Institute rejected the Powell doctrine in its Model Penal Code. See 2 Model Penal Code and Commentaries, pt. 1, § 5.03 note on subsec. 1 & cmt. 2(c)(iii) (1985)

[see my previous posts about the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in United States v. Feola]
 
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It doesn't concern the issue.
The Seditious Conspiracy statute states, among others, that two or more people have have to conspire to oppose the lawful authority of the USA.
In other words, the OBJECTIVE is to work together to oppose the lawful authority of the USA.
The accused then has to know what that law is and that they are conspiring to oppose it. They can't back into it.
That's why the indictment states they "knowingly" conspired.
Let me be clear about this: You're wrong.
Or, put another way, you're just wrong.
Or, to put it in a positive light, you're completely wrong. The law does not require they know the illegality of their actions, only that their actions were intentional. That is what is meant by "knowingly".
In short, you're wrong.
 
Frequently, statutes don't clearly state whether the offenses they describe require specific or general intent. Rather, courts determine a crime's intent element by following the general rule that terms like "knowingly" and "voluntarily" denote general intent (as in "knowingly and voluntarily use force against another"). Terms that describe something more than knowledge and voluntariness, like "purpose," tend to indicate specific intent (as in "knowingly and voluntarily use force against someone with the intent to disable him or her"). (U.S. v. Peralta, 930 F. Supp. 1523 (S.D. Fla. 1996).)


The MPC and Mens Rea: Most states use the MPC's classification for various mentes reae. The MPC organizes and defines culpable states of mind into four hierarchical categories:

acting purposely - the defendant had an underlying conscious object to act
acting knowingly - the defendant is practically certain that the conduct will cause a particular result


In United States v. Feola, 420 U.S. 671 (1975), the defendant was convicted of a Section 371 conspiracy to assault a federal officer while the officer was engaged in the performance of his official duties. The underlying substantive offense, 18 U.S.C. 111, did not require knowledge that the intended victim was a federal officer. The issue before the Court was whether the government was nonetheless required to prove such knowledge under the conspiracy statute. The Court held that it was not, concluding that "where a substantive offense embodies only a requirement of mens rea as to each of its elements, the general federal conspiracy statute requires no more." 420 U.S. at 692.

[see my previous posts about the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in United States v. Feola]

The Seditious Conspiracy statute is not a general conspiracy law.
It is specific, concerning the use of force and in opposition to lawful USA authority.
 
Frequently, statutes don't clearly state whether the offenses they describe require specific or general intent. Rather, courts determine a crime's intent element by following the general rule that terms like "knowingly" and "voluntarily" denote general intent (as in "knowingly and voluntarily use force against another"). Terms that describe something more than knowledge and voluntariness, like "purpose," tend to indicate specific intent (as in "knowingly and voluntarily use force against someone with the intent to disable him or her"). (U.S. v. Peralta, 930 F. Supp. 1523 (S.D. Fla. 1996).)


The MPC and Mens Rea: Most states use the MPC's classification for various mentes reae. The MPC organizes and defines culpable states of mind into four hierarchical categories:

acting purposely - the defendant had an underlying conscious object to act
acting knowingly - the defendant is practically certain that the conduct will cause a particular result
acting recklessly - The defendant consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustified risk
acting negligently - The defendant was not aware of the risk, but should have been aware of the risk


In United States v. Feola, 420 U.S. 671 (1975), the defendant was convicted of a Section 371 conspiracy to assault a federal officer while the officer was engaged in the performance of his official duties. The underlying substantive offense, 18 U.S.C. 111, did not require knowledge that the intended victim was a federal officer. The issue before the Court was whether the government was nonetheless required to prove such knowledge under the conspiracy statute. The Court held that it was not, concluding that "where a substantive offense embodies only a requirement of mens rea as to each of its elements, the general federal conspiracy statute requires no more." 420 U.S. at 692. The Court relied for that conclusion chiefly on the language of the conspiracy statute itself, observing that "nothing on the face" of that statute would require greater knowledge on the part of those conspiring to commit an offense than is required to actually commit the offense. Id. at 687.

Since Feola, the courts of appeals, in reliance on that decision, have repeatedly rejected claims that a "corrupt motive" or knowledge of the law is an element of a gambling conspiracy. See United States v. Blair, 54 F.3d 639, 642-643 (10th Cir.) (conspiracy to violate Section 1084(a)), cert. denied, 516 U.S. 883 (1995); United States v. Murray, 928 F.2d 1242, 1251 (1st Cir. 1991); United States v. Leon, 534 F.2d 667, 674-675 (6th Cir. 1976); see also United States v. Thomas, 887 F.2d 1341, 1346-1347 (9th Cir. 1989) (holding that knowledge of the law is not an element of a conspiracy to engage in "apparently innocent conduct"). No federal court of appeals has cited the Powell doctrine with approval since Feola. Nor do the standard jury instructions on conspiracy include an element of "corrupt motive." See, e.g., Edward J. Devitt, Federal Jury Practice and Instructions § 28.03 (4th ed. 1990). And, as the court of appeals noted (Pet. App. 6a-7a), the American Law Institute rejected the Powell doctrine in its Model Penal Code. See 2 Model Penal Code and Commentaries, pt. 1, § 5.03 note on subsec. 1 & cmt. 2(c)(iii) (1985)

[see my previous posts about the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in United States v. Feola]
That's a much more thorough statement of the case. I didn't have that patience.
 
Let me be clear about this: You're wrong.
Or, put another way, you're just wrong.
Or, to put it in a positive light, you're completely wrong. The law does not require they know the illegality of their actions, only that their actions were intentional. That is what is meant by "knowingly".
In short, you're wrong.

The statute states they have conspire to break the law.
In other words, they have to know this is the law and they are going to break it.
 
It doesn't concern the issue.
The Seditious Conspiracy statute states, among others, that two or more people have have to conspire to oppose the lawful authority of the USA.
In other words, the OBJECTIVE is to work together to oppose the lawful authority of the USA.
The accused then has to know what that law is and that they are conspiring to oppose it. They can't back into it.
That's why the indictment states they "knowingly" conspired.

I have just put forward the best case possible anyone could make in an informal setting where contributors are voluntarily spending their time to do informal, unpaid legal research to contribute to a political discussion forum.

If you cannot find a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that contradicts the precedent set by the U.S. Supreme Court in United States v. Feola, and the other cases I referenced in the Supreme Court brief I posted then0 we don't have anything more to discuss as it concerns this issue. [see my previous posts about the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in United States v. Feola]

With respect to this legal issue, I'm done talking to you.
 
The statute states they have conspire to break the law.
In other words, they have to know this is the law and they are going to break it.
Are you arguing that ignorance of the law is a defense?
 
Are you arguing that ignorance of the law is a defense?
To be more accurate, he is arguing that his ignorance of the law is an excuse. ;) Or, at least, the basis of his posts.

It's nonsense, actually. Repetitious nonsense. One can be convicted of "First Degree Murder" if one intends to kill another. It doesn't matter if one "knows" that killing another is illegal. That would be a ridiculous standard. They intended to interfere with a legal process. Nothing more is needed.
 
Talk about deflections and going off thread! It was YOUR argument that people do not need to know they are conspiring to be accused of conspiracy or know they are breaking the law to be accused of breaking the law.
All this other tirade about Trump and Goebbels is completely off point.

I didn't deflect shit. I took your idiotic legal defense of your Oathkeeper friends and I beat it to a bloody pulp.

And then I introduced a new idea:

The idea that Trump and his supporters think can make false allegations of election fraud in an order to overturn an election is more important than any other topic, including this one.
 
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