[W:371]Twenty Generals Call for Coup Against Macron Warning of ‘Civil War’ and ‘Disintegration of France at Hands of Islamists’

[AJG]

At whom was this directed?
I don't know where the quotation from EMNofSeattle came from. If certainly doesn't fit into the context of the discussion we are having now.
And I don't know (as I said) who is supposed to be answerable for people who bomb abortion clinics.
I'm lost.

It was directed at EMN, who I quoted. If you follow the link to his post which was made earlier in this thread you'll see the context.

if you're wondering why I asked the question, it sounded to me as if EMN was saying that Muslims cannot embody American values (and perhaps French values as well), which I completely disagree with. In fact I think they can embody American values as much as any Christian can, or the values of any nation they immigrate to. I'm trying to understand his perspective better.

 

[SheWolf]

What else does this mean? "Allah has bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain".

This verse LITERALLY says Muslims have to fight to get to heaven. How can you possibly deny that?????????????

The Quran says,

Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah ? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.

That does not command Muslims to kill in order to be in heaven with Allah.

 

[stevecanuck]

The Quran says,

Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah ? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.

That does not command Muslims to kill in order to be in heaven with Allah.

Your continued denial is noted.

 

[sanman]

The Quran says,

Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah ? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.

That does not command Muslims to kill in order to be in heaven with Allah.

“This is what Allah says… ‘Now go and strike the Infidel and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.” Surah 27:63

“Happy is he who repays the infidel for what they have done to us – he who seizes their infants and dashes them against the rocks.” – Surah 34:12

“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” – Surah 135:27

“A Wife, must submit to her husband as to Allah.” – Surah 5:22

“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.” – Surah 21: 7-8

 

[stevecanuck]

“This is what Allah says… ‘Now go and strike the Infidel and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.” Surah 27:63

“Happy is he who repays the infidel for what they have done to us – he who seizes their infants and dashes them against the rocks.” – Surah 34:12

“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” – Surah 135:27

“A Wife, must submit to her husband as to Allah.” – Surah 5:22

“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.” – Surah 21: 7-8

I don't know who fed you those quotes, but they don't exist. For starters there is no surah 135. It ends at 114. Check what those other verses actually say here.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

corpus.quran.com

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Do you believe those Christians bombing abortion clinics embody American values more than most American Muslims do?

Well, I mean there were Christian fanatics prior to civil war who engaged in armed violence to free slaves or prevent slavery from expanding. Against the rulings of the Supreme Court and against the law that existed at the time. So if you’re asking is there an American tradition in violating the law in the greater interests of justice... well you should read more American history. And this predates any significant Islamic population in America

 

[AJG]

Well, I mean there were Christian fanatics prior to civil war who engaged in armed violence to free slaves or prevent slavery from expanding. Against the rulings of the Supreme Court and against the law that existed at the time. So if you’re asking is there an American tradition in violating the law in the greater interests of justice... well you should read more American history. And this predates any significant Islamic population in America

Ok, fair enough. Do you think someone who is non-Christian, such as a Muslim or atheist, can embody American values, or do you believe there's something fundamentally Christian about American values that someone outside of the religion can't embody?

 

[stevecanuck]

You think a Muslim has to murder to go heaven? You think that’s what Islam teaches? That’s a lie.

You can disagree with me all you want to, but what would you say to well-known Muslim exegete Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi (https://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/9/index.html), who summarizes "the problems that were confronting the [Islamic] Community at that time" thus:

- to make the whole of Arabia a perfect Dar-ul-Islam [abode of Islam],
- to extend the influence of Islam to the adjoining countries,
- to crush the mischief of the hypocrites, and
- to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the non- Muslim world.

In order to enable the Muslims to extend the influence of Islam outside Arabia, they were enjoined to crush with sword the non- Muslim powers and to force them to accept the sovereignty of the Islamic State. As the great Roman and Iranian Empires were the biggest hindrances in the way, a conflict with them was inevitable. The object of Jihad was not to coerce them to accept Islam they were free to accept or not to accept it-but to prevent them from thrusting forcibly their deviations [non-Islamic religions] upon others and the coming generations. The Muslims were enjoined to tolerate their misguidance only to the extent that they might have the freedom to remain misguided, if they chose to be so, provided that they paid Jizyah (v. 29) as a sign of their subjugation to the Islamic State.

In order to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the whole non-Muslim world, it was necessary to cure them even of that slight weakness of faith from which they were still suffering. For there could be no greater internal danger to the Islamic Community than the weakness of faith, especially where it was going to engage itself single-handed in a' conflict with the whole non-Muslim world. That is why those people who had lagged behind in the Campaign to Tabuk or had shown the least negligence were severely taken to task, and were considered hypocrites if they had no plausible excuse for not fulfilling that obligation. Moreover, a clear declaration was made that in future the sole criterion of a Muslim's faith shall be the exertions he makes for the uplift of the Word of Allah and the role he plays in the conflict between Islam and kufr. Therefore, if anyone will show any hesitation in sacrificing his life, money, time and energies, his faith shall not be regarded as genuine.

Did you get that last part? - Moreover, a clear declaration was made that in future the sole criterion of a Muslim's faith shall be the exertions he makes for the uplift of the Word of Allah and the role he plays in the conflict between Islam and kufr. Therefore, if anyone will show any hesitation in sacrificing his life, money, time and energies, his faith shall not be regarded as genuine.

 

[stevecanuck]

You think a Muslim has to murder to go heaven? You think that’s what Islam teaches? That’s a lie.

Here's another example for you of Allah telling Muslims to fight to avoid being sent to Hell:

61:10 - "Believers, shall I show you a bargain which will save you from the painful torment [Hell]?".
61:11 - "Believe in Allah and His Messenger and strive [fight] in the cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives".
61:12 - "He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity".

There are more, and you know it. How you could deny that 9:111 means what it so clearly says demonstrates your ability to shut your eyes to the obvious.

And it hasn't escaped my notice that you have no defense for a Muslim nation condemning a Christian woman to death for doing nothing more than defending her religion.

 

[SheWolf]

“This is what Allah says… ‘Now go and strike the Infidel and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.” Surah 27:63

“Happy is he who repays the infidel for what they have done to us – he who seizes their infants and dashes them against the rocks.” – Surah 34:12

“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” – Surah 135:27

“A Wife, must submit to her husband as to Allah.” – Surah 5:22

“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.” – Surah 21: 7-8

You’re taking it out of context. Killing in a war is acceptable in any religion.

 

[SheWolf]

You can disagree with me all you want to, but what would you say to well-known Muslim exegete Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi (https://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/9/index.html), who summarizes "the problems that were confronting the [Islamic] Community at that time" thus:


Did you get that last part? - Moreover, a clear declaration was made that in future the sole criterion of a Muslim's faith shall be the exertions he makes for the uplift of the Word of Allah and the role he plays in the conflict between Islam and kufr. Therefore, if anyone will show any hesitation in sacrificing his life, money, time and energies, his faith shall not be regarded as genuine.

There are problems in Islamic communities. America’s policies and alliance with Saudi Arabia is making it worse. If you wanted to better Islamic communities and fight extremism, that would be a beautiful thing. I would join you in that effort. But your end goal is to blame and hate. You are blind in this discussion.

 

[iguanaman]

No, they’re saying that allowing Muslims to live in France is destroying French culture. Muslims should be perfectly welcome to be human beings in whatever craphole country they came from. You have no inherent right to live in any specific place on earth and it’s pretty apparent immigration is not helping France

If a few poor people from "craphole" countries can destroy French culture there must not have been a lot of culture there to begin with. The French liked the cheap labor they provided just fine which is why they brought them in. Now the racists and bigots are using them as a weapon. More consequences for Putin's successful help electing Trump. Now he is trying it in every democracy. He is the enemy that must be stopped.

 

[SheWolf]

Here's another example for you of Allah telling Muslims to fight to avoid being sent to Hell:

61:10 - "Believers, shall I show you a bargain which will save you from the painful torment [Hell]?".
61:11 - "Believe in Allah and His Messenger and strive [fight] in the cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives".
61:12 - "He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity".

There are more, and you know it. How you could deny that 9:111 means what it so clearly says demonstrates your ability to shut your eyes to the obvious.

And it hasn't escaped my notice that you have no defense for a Muslim nation condemning a Christian woman to death for doing nothing more than defending her religion.

Having a conversation with you is incredible. Of course I condemn murdering women for being Christian. I support freedom of religion and real democracy. There are problems with those Islamic nations. I have met numerous Muslims from places like Afghanistan and Pakistan risking their lives to change those realities, and yet all you do is sit at your keyboard and bash every single Muslim who ever lived.

 

[iguanaman]

Well, I mean there were Christian fanatics prior to civil war who engaged in armed violence to free slaves or prevent slavery from expanding. Against the rulings of the Supreme Court and against the law that existed at the time. So if you’re asking is there an American tradition in violating the law in the greater interests of justice... well you should read more American history. And this predates any significant Islamic population in America

General Lee was a devout Christian who believed God gave the white man the "burden" of "educating" the black man by enslaving him until God told us they could be free. The Catholic church appeased Hitler and even his "final solution". The Christian religion is far from innocent from its own atrocities and you should not bring them up as examples of piety.

 

[stevecanuck]

You’re taking it out of context.

I thought you said you've studied the qur'an. You should know that every "quote" he gave does not exist. Not even close. I told him so in post 205.

Killing in a war is acceptable in any religion.

The qur'an harps on killing in war. It's commanded of the faithful dozens of times. To the best of my knowledge their is no mention of killing in war in the NT. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[stevecanuck]

There are problems in Islamic communities. America’s policies and alliance with Saudi Arabia is making it worse. If you wanted to better Islamic communities and fight extremism, that would be a beautiful thing. I would join you in that effort. But your end goal is to blame and hate. You are blind in this discussion.

Surah 9 alone makes your desire for peace impossible. It was revealed at the time of Mohamed's march north to start a war with the Byzantines. The entire surah is a call to arms. And it worked. Within 100 years of Mohamed's death, the army he formed and stirred to action had created a vast empire. Muslims who "only fight in self-defense" don't need to travel to France to do so. They were there to conquer in accordance with verses like 9:29 and 9:111. Period.

 

[stevecanuck]

Having a conversation with you is incredible. Of course I condemn murdering women for being Christian.

I have no doubt of your sincerity. Too bad you were born into the wrong religion for that. Spreading any religious belief other than Islam is called 'fasad' (usually translated as 'corruption'). The qur'an warns of it 50 times. Verse 5:33 says that those guilty of fasad should be killed or crucified. Pakistan was merely following God's dictates by sentencing Asia Bibi to death. Saudi Arabia to this day crucifies people.

Sharia courts don't make things up. They only do as God tells them.

I support freedom of religion and real democracy.

Again, wrong religion. Verse 61:9 explains that, "He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them". The only freedom of religion allowed according to 9:29 is by first paying the jizyah and becoming a dhimmi.

There are problems with those Islamic nations. I have met numerous Muslims from places like Afghanistan and Pakistan risking their lives to change those realities,

I read 'I am Malala'. She's one of my heroes.

and yet all you do is sit at your keyboard and bash every single Muslim who ever lived.

Come on. Are you still going to go there?

 

[SheWolf]

I thought you said you've studied the qur'an. You should know that every "quote" he gave does not exist. Not even close. I told him so in post 205.



The qur'an harps on killing in war. It's commanded of the faithful dozens of times. To the best of my knowledge their is no mention of killing in war in the NT. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I have read the Bible and Quran. If you want to call me a liar and argue with me that I should murder Christians, I don’t care. I don’t have much respect for anything you think or have to say, because you’re just another anti Muslim bigot.

 

[SheWolf]

Surah 9 alone makes your desire for peace impossible. It was revealed at the time of Mohamed's march north to start a war with the Byzantines. The entire surah is a call to arms. And it worked. Within 100 years of Mohamed's death, the army he formed and stirred to action had created a vast empire. Muslims who "only fight in self-defense" don't need to travel to France to do so. They were there to conquer in accordance with verses like 9:29 and 9:111. Period.

It pertained to a certain war. It does not apply to how I should behave as a modern citizen in peaceful times.

 

[SheWolf]

I have no doubt of your sincerity. Too bad you were born into the wrong religion for that. Spreading any religious belief other than Islam is called 'fasad' (usually translated as 'corruption'). The qur'an warns of it 50 times. Verse 5:33 says that those guilty of fasad should be killed or crucified. Pakistan was merely following God's dictates by sentencing Asia Bibi to death. Saudi Arabia to this day crucifies people.

Sharia courts don't make things up. They only do as God tells them.



Again, wrong religion. Verse 61:9 explains that, "He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them". The only freedom of religion allowed according to 9:29 is by first paying the jizyah and becoming a dhimmi.



I read 'I am Malala'. She's one of my heroes.


Come on. Are you still going to go there?

How can you respect Malala if she is a Muslim, and you think she is wrong for not endorsing the murder of Christians? You really talk out of both sides. I know better than to take people like you seriously. I have worked with her fund and many other Muslim lead programs. There are other Muslims leading and fighting for positive change, unfortunately, you will attack them all for simply being Muslim and not joining Isis.

 

[stevecanuck]

I have read the Bible and Quran. If you want to call me a liar and argue with me that I should murder Christians, I don’t care. I don’t have much respect for anything you think or have to say, because you’re just another anti Muslim bigot.

As my signature line says, "I don't paint Muslims with one brush. The Qur'an does. I just report what it says".

 

[stevecanuck]

It pertained to a certain war. It does not apply to how I should behave as a modern citizen in peaceful times.

Yes it does. It makes many generalized statements.

 

[stevecanuck]

It pertained to a certain war.

Please explain how the Islamic Empire came to be.

 

[SheWolf]

As my signature line says, "I don't paint Muslims with one brush. The Qur'an does. I just report what it says".

So why do you consider Malala your hero, because she is fake Muslim?

 

[SheWolf]

Yes it does. It makes many generalized statements.

The context is obvious. Again, you embarrass yourself thinking you deserve to be taken seriously.