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[W: 355] Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

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Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

Redemption and divine Justice.

Where's the justice when an unsaved 3 year old or an older person who never heard of christianity is tortured for eternity?

It's a scare tactic, coupled with the revenge factor that turns on some believers who want to think those that don't think like them will suffer greatly. Sick, imo.
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

Christians refer to Jesus Christ as the Son of God, a member of the Holy Trinity, who died for our sins and was raised from the dead, and who will return. For more information on who Christians say Christ was, consider the Nicene Creed, from the year 325, and still repeated today:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified
under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

That is how we refer to Christ. He was great at a lot of things, among them teaching.

Trying to help you out - sometimes people from different religions get confused.

Thanks for that Nicene Creed, Nate.


Here's the portion that relates to you, Elvira:


eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

Where's the justice when an unsaved 3 year old or an older person who never heard of christianity is tortured for eternity?

Tsk tsk...

This is your latest example of Biblical ignorance.

Sin is not imputed to a baby or a three year old until they are mature enough to know right from wrong in God's eyes.

Second, you need to start reading the Bible. In this case, Romans chapter 2:

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

Now you have heard of the salvation of Jesus Christ and so far you've kicked it to the curb. You are not in a good place when taking that 1st step into the hereafter.
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

Thanks for that Nicene Creed, Nate.


Here's the portion that relates to you, Elvira:


eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.

True. That creed is not in the Bible, but it does a better job of explaining the trinity than any single passage in the NT.
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

Nice try.

Answer me this, which is a scripture some six centuries before Jesus:

Daniel 12:2 - "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Where is this place of everlasting contempt that the prophet Daniel is referring to?
That place doesnt exist, which is my point.

You will find out some day, but it looks like for now you're clinging to your fundamentalism
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

Don't agree with it.

Tell me, in the JW's teachings or beliefs, what part do works play in the salvation equation?

Is it

a. faith + works + baptism = salvation
b. faith + works + belief in the JW's = salvation
c. faith and no works = salvation
d. faith + baptism = salvation?

Or something else? Please specify.

"So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead." James 2:17

If you have the faith, it will be shown in your works or fruitage...baptism is merely a public declaration of one's faith and dedication to Jehovah God and His son, Jesus Christ...dedication in your heart and mind comes before that...

Salvation is only achieved when one endures until the end, whether is be the end of this life or the end of this world as we know it...whichever comes first...Matthew 24:13
 
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Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

I would love it if Elvira and POS explained how JW soteriology works. But they cant. I have asked before.

I'm not sure, it seems to be a little convoluted. One requirement, of course, is that you must be JW, as that is "Jehovah's chosen organization". Then there's something about 144,000 anointed folks pulled from Revelation, I dunno.

I don't have any problem with anyone believing what they want...I think they should be respected and left alone. Elvira wouldn't have heard a peep from me had she said "Here's what I believe" and left it at that. But the thread is deliberately set up to mock and discredit Christians on the validity of their faith, at which point I have to take issue, primarily because JW is not a Christian denomination, but rather a modern interpretation of Christianity that has been altered so drastically from the original as to be something completely new.

I would love if they were to explain it too, this stuff is interesting, but whether they do or they don't, or what they would say, has no bearing on my faith, as I'm not a JW, but rather a Christian. I'm not sure this requires any greater intensity or passion or concern than that, bud.
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

That place doesnt exist, which is my point.

You will find out some day, but it looks like for now you're clinging to your fundamentalism

As opposed to clinging to your can of worms whims? At least I have a confirmed resurrection of Christ on my side. All you have is hot air denial, without evidence.
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

As opposed to clinging to your can of worms whims? At least I have a confirmed resurrection of Christ on my side. All you have is hot air denial, without evidence
You're welcome to believe that, and I'm not really here to change your mind, I'm just offering up my opposing viewpoint
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

Tsk tsk...

This is your latest example of Biblical ignorance.

Sin is not imputed to a baby or a three year old until they are mature enough to know right from wrong in God's eyes.

Second, you need to start reading the Bible. In this case, Romans chapter 2:

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

All are born with sin. You can weasel word however you wish, but there is no "age of accountability" or anything like that. Sin is sin. The best you can do, believably, is claim that God will show people like that mercy.
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

"So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead." James 2:17

If you have the faith, it will be shown in your works or fruitage...baptism is merely a public declaration of one's faith and dedication to Jehovah God and His son, Jesus Christ...dedication in your heart and mind comes before that...

Salvation is only achieved when one endures until the end, whether is be the end of this life or the end of this world as we know it...whichever comes first...Matthew 24:13

Please state the equation then.

Seems now it's faith in Christ, + works + enduring to the end = salvation?
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

As opposed to clinging to your can of worms whims? At least I have a confirmed resurrection of Christ on my side. All you have is hot air denial, without evidence.

We all end up as worm food...:2razz:
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

I know you're getting upset about people not being willing to watch your video, but one more time, unless they're JW, they're not going to be interested in what it has to say, if it is trying to pass itself of as Christianity. Your religion is less than 100 years old, and is not Christianity. I'm thinking Christians are about as interested in why JW's think they are right as JW's are interested in why Scientologists think they are right...Scientology used as an example as it was conceived just 20 years after JW.

I'm glad you found meaning in your life, and a religion that you enjoy. But maybe try to live and let live a little. I'm interested in hearing about your religion, but you're wasting your time if you think you're going to influence anyone about their religion when yours is a different one, especially when your default go to when challenged is smugness and condescension. This whole thread is a fraud, because you didn't add the prefix "JW" ahead of Bible.

If anyone in this thread would like to know what the Christian Bible says about hell, for better or worse, for interpretation or discussion or dismissal, here it is:

https://www.openbible.info/topics/hell

There you go. Now, back to what JW's believe....

Very true... I personally don't watch the videos or look at the linked website(s) on the basis that I want to hear people formulate their own arguments, instead of using the arguments of others...

From a logical standpoint, her religion is just as reasonable to believe in as mine or zyzygy's... they are all initial circular arguments with additional arguments stemming from them... They are all faith based (circular reasoning and faith are synonymous terms)...

It then comes down to supporting evidence, which is what religion makes use of (not proofs), and what supporting evidence each individual finds to be convincing to them, as opposed to other supporting evidence for other religions... I don't use evidence to mean proof, since they are two different things, but I use evidence to mean "any statement that supports an argument".
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

"So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead." James 2:17

If you have the faith, it will be shown in your works or fruitage...baptism is merely a public declaration of one's faith and dedication to Jehovah God and His son, Jesus Christ...dedication in your heart and mind comes before that...

Salvation is only achieved when one endures until the end, whether is be the end of this life or the end of this world as we know it...whichever comes first...Matthew 24:13

Actually, Matthew 24:13 only states:

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

https://biblehub.com/matthew/24-13.htm

Is all the rest of that from the JW Bible?
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

Please state the equation then.

Seems now it's faith in Christ, + works + enduring to the end = salvation?

I did not stutter...
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

Very true... I personally don't watch the videos or look at the linked website(s) on the basis that I want to hear people formulate their own arguments, instead of using the arguments of others...

From a logical standpoint, her religion is just as reasonable to believe in as mine or zyzygy's... they are all initial circular arguments with additional arguments stemming from them... They are all faith based (circular reasoning and faith are synonymous terms)...

It then comes down to supporting evidence, which is what religion makes use of (not proofs), and what supporting evidence each individual finds to be convincing to them, as opposed to other supporting evidence for other religions... I don't use evidence to mean proof, since they are two different things, but I use evidence to mean "any statement that supports an argument".

Ya, I mean...comparative debating between religions is usually pretty pointless, and I think seeking to establish superiority is wrong minded. That's why I'm not debating the messaging of the OP, but rather the appropriateness of it...though I'm pretty sure by now Elvira has me on Ignore... :lol: She doesn't seem eager to engage with me. You're not going to convince anyone with your "evidence", because it only matters and makes sense to people already convinced.

Wouldn't it be nice if we were all interested enough in our fellow human beings to learn enough about what's important to them to understand them, but ultimately employ a live and let live approach?
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

I'm not sure, it seems to be a little convoluted. One requirement, of course, is that you must be JW, as that is "Jehovah's chosen organization". Then there's something about 144,000 anointed folks pulled from Revelation, I dunno.

I don't have any problem with anyone believing what they want...I think they should be respected and left alone. Elvira wouldn't have heard a peep from me had she said "Here's what I believe" and left it at that. But the thread is deliberately set up to mock and discredit Christians on the validity of their faith, at which point I have to take issue, primarily because JW is not a Christian denomination, but rather a modern interpretation of Christianity that has been altered so drastically from the original as to be something completely new.

I would love if they were to explain it too, this stuff is interesting, but whether they do or they don't, or what they would say, has no bearing on my faith, as I'm not a JW, but rather a Christian. I'm not sure this requires any greater intensity or passion or concern than that, bud.

And that's exactly right, Elvira would have had no trouble with me if she had not decided to take on her latest anti-trinitarian rant. She's got the trolls doing it as just another anti-Christian meme.

From an eternal perspective, however, you have to be concerned for the souls who buy into the notion that there will be no justice, no penalty for the Hitlers throughout history who will just vanish, like every other non - JW.
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

Eyewitnesses. Plenty of them.

Go talk to anyone who's had an NDE, they will tell you they've seen the other side (astral world) and there is no hell

I don't believe in NDEs.
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

I did not stutter...

You have works in your salvation equation. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "not by works so that no man can boast."

Here's what you guys are missing:

"Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works, he was performing works od A Godly nature because he first was saved and regenerated by faith. Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”

Another way to illustrate this is to consider the thief on the cross next to Jesus – the one who stated, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Then Jesus responded by saying, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:42-43). It was at this particular moment that the repentant thief received his salvation, and was justified righteous in the eyes of God. This particular moment would also coincide with Genesis 15:6, when Abraham believed God and it was credited (imputed to his account) as righteousness, and would also coincide with what Paul stated in Ephesians 2:8-9. Note that there is no evidence that the thief had performed any good works in his life. To the contrary, his works were more of a criminal nature than a Godly nature. That was the very reason he was being crucified. Even as he initially hung from his cross, he heaped insults on the Lord (Mark 15:32). But then the sky darkened, his pain and suffering magnified, and the words Jesus spoke on the cross hit their appointed target, and the thief had a change of heart and believed on the Lord. At that point, the thief received his salvation and justification. Now, if by some means the thief could have come down from the cross, prior to death, and continued on with his life, then eventually his saving faith would have produced good works (corresponding to Abraham in Genesis 22 and James chapter 2). There is a progression whereby salvation leads to good works. In the eyes of God, Abraham was genuinely justified righteous in Genesis 15:6. Because his faith was genuine, it produced his works in Genesis 22, whereby he was seen as being justified righteous in the eyes of men. James and Paul, though they approach the issue of justification from two different points in time and two different perspectives (the perspective of God and the perspective of man), nevertheless are in total agreement with each other."

https://righterreport.com/2011/12/1...-how-believers-are-declared-righteous-by-god/
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

And that's exactly right, Elvira would have had no trouble with me if she had not decided to take on her latest anti-trinitarian rant. She's got the trolls doing it as just another anti-Christian meme.

From an eternal perspective, however, you have to be concerned for the souls who buy into the notion that there will be no justice, no penalty for the Hitlers throughout history who will just vanish, like every other non - JW.

Of course... I'm concerned for all souls from an eternal perspective, including my own. None of us ever "earn" salvation, or "deserve" it. Thank goodness deciding who gets in isn't my job. :)
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

You have works in your salvation equation. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "not by works so that no man can boast."

Here's what you guys are missing:

"Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works, he was performing works od A Godly nature because he first was saved and regenerated by faith. Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”

Another way to illustrate this is to consider the thief on the cross next to Jesus – the one who stated, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Then Jesus responded by saying, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:42-43). It was at this particular moment that the repentant thief received his salvation, and was justified righteous in the eyes of God. This particular moment would also coincide with Genesis 15:6, when Abraham believed God and it was credited (imputed to his account) as righteousness, and would also coincide with what Paul stated in Ephesians 2:8-9. Note that there is no evidence that the thief had performed any good works in his life. To the contrary, his works were more of a criminal nature than a Godly nature. That was the very reason he was being crucified. Even as he initially hung from his cross, he heaped insults on the Lord (Mark 15:32). But then the sky darkened, his pain and suffering magnified, and the words Jesus spoke on the cross hit their appointed target, and the thief had a change of heart and believed on the Lord. At that point, the thief received his salvation and justification. Now, if by some means the thief could have come down from the cross, prior to death, and continued on with his life, then eventually his saving faith would have produced good works (corresponding to Abraham in Genesis 22 and James chapter 2). There is a progression whereby salvation leads to good works. In the eyes of God, Abraham was genuinely justified righteous in Genesis 15:6. Because his faith was genuine, it produced his works in Genesis 22, whereby he was seen as being justified righteous in the eyes of men. James and Paul, though they approach the issue of justification from two different points in time and two different perspectives (the perspective of God and the perspective of man), nevertheless are in total agreement with each other."

https://righterreport.com/2011/12/1...-how-believers-are-declared-righteous-by-god/

lol...you've never seen me boast about works...you on the other hand like to question people about how many they have brought to Jesus...sounds like boasting to me...
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

All are born with sin. You can weasel word however you wish, but there is no "age of accountability" or anything like that. Sin is sin. The best you can do, believably, is claim that God will show people like that mercy.

Romans 5:13 - "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law."

To a 3 year old, they are not able to adequately receive and understand the law, thus they are not charged with the sin.

You're wanting to condemn them. Now who's the legalist and the executioner??
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

lol...you've never seen me boast about works...you on the other hand like to question people about how many they have brought to Jesus...sounds like boasting to me...

You're the one who thinks works play a role in salvation, not me.

Tell me, how MANY works does one have to do, and exactly what kinds of works, so that they fit into your JW works salvation??
 
Re: Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

You're the one who thinks works play a role in salvation, not me.

Tell me, how MANY works does one have to do, and exactly what kinds of works, so that they fit into your JW works salvation??

Uh huh...that's why you ask people, huh...cuz it don't matter...
 
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