[W: 344][W:64]Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

[zyzygy]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

No. Scripture is pretty straight forward. They have an opportunity to believe the truth. It's up to them to do so.

It may not be the truth.

 

[Omega Man]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

It tells us that our earthly lives are not ultimately important.

Only while we are living. In a hundred years after our deaths, why should any of us still matter? It's not as if we can still fret over it.


OM

 

[veritas1]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

It may not be the truth.

I'm betting that it is. It all depends on your risk tolerance.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

I'm betting that it is. It all depends on your risk tolerance.

Gambling is a vice.

 

[veritas1]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Gambling is a vice.

We're all making a bet. It simply depends on which one you're making.

 

[Omega Man]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

We're all making a bet. It simply depends on which one you're making.

Ah yes, Pascal's Wager; long since debunked.


OM

 

[veritas1]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Ah yes, Pascal's Wager; long since debunked.


OM

Not at all. If Christianity is true and you bet on it, you win. If bet on it and it's false, you had nothing to gain in the first place. If you bet against it and it's false, same thing. If you bet against it and it's true, you have a big problem.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

We're all making a bet. It simply depends on which one you're making.

I am not betting.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Not at all. If Christianity is true and you bet on it, you win. If bet on it and it's false, you had nothing to gain in the first place. If you bet against it and it's false, same thing. If you bet against it and it's true, you have a big problem.

“God is, or He is not”
A Game is being played… where heads or tails will turn up.
According to reason, you can defend either of the propositions.
You must wager. (It’s not optional.)
Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (…) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
Ok, so why is this wrong? First, it is based on a false dichotomy fallacy. Which god? People often forget, due to the self-absorbed nature of humanity, that there is more to the world than just what they believe in. Let’s not forget that there are any number of gods that are believed in equally strongly by their respective theists.

Second, if we factor in the existence of multiple gods, we must also factor in the potential punishment of following the wrong god. The first commandment makes it pretty clear that at least some gods don’t like it when you choose the wrong one. Additionally, the game is no longer a wager between two options. You have multiple options, with each option – except atheism – promising reward and punishment.

By now, we’ve pretty much destroyed step one of Pascal’s Wager. If you’re keeping up, you’ll release we’ve destroyed step two as well (it is no longer a 50/50 chance – heads or tails is no longer valid). But wait, there’s more!

Debunking Pascal’s Wager | The Sceptical Prophet

 

[veritas1]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

I am not betting.

Look it's pretty easy. On one side you have people believing in it and on the other you have people not believing in it. If you claim not to be sure, you're still in the second camp. So, yea, we're all making a bet, one way or the other.

 

[veritas1]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

“God is, or He is not”
A Game is being played… where heads or tails will turn up.
According to reason, you can defend either of the propositions.
You must wager. (It’s not optional.)
Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (…) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
Ok, so why is this wrong? First, it is based on a false dichotomy fallacy. Which god? People often forget, due to the self-absorbed nature of humanity, that there is more to the world than just what they believe in. Let’s not forget that there are any number of gods that are believed in equally strongly by their respective theists.

Second, if we factor in the existence of multiple gods, we must also factor in the potential punishment of following the wrong god. The first commandment makes it pretty clear that at least some gods don’t like it when you choose the wrong one. Additionally, the game is no longer a wager between two options. You have multiple options, with each option – except atheism – promising reward and punishment.

By now, we’ve pretty much destroyed step one of Pascal’s Wager. If you’re keeping up, you’ll release we’ve destroyed step two as well (it is no longer a 50/50 chance – heads or tails is no longer valid). But wait, there’s more!

Debunking Pascal’s Wager | The Sceptical Prophet

The atheism option cannot be said to be risk free as claimed. If either the Christian God or some other God exists, the atheist can still face an unpleasant outcome. Naturally, none of this discussion has any bearing at all on whether Christianity is likely to be true.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Look it's pretty easy. On one side you have people believing in it and on the other you have people not believing in it. If you claim not to be sure, you're still in the second camp. So, yea, we're all making a bet, one way or the other.

I disagree. It is a race between gods. I have never seen any evidence for the existence of any god so betting on one is an impossibility for me.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

The atheism option cannot be said to be risk free as claimed. If either the Christian God or some other God exists, the atheist can still face an unpleasant outcome. Naturally, none of this discussion has any bearing at all on whether Christianity is likely to be true.

There will be no unpleasant outcome. If a god created me the way I am then he/she/it/whatever has no reason to complain.

 

[veritas1]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

I disagree. It is a race between gods. I have never seen any evidence for the existence of any god so betting on one is an impossibility for me.

Nothing you said changes what I posted. You're in one camp or the other regarding Christianity. It's a binary choice to the extent that anything you believe apart from it, whether in no gods or different gods, is still a no vote on Christianity.

 

[veritas1]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

There will be no unpleasant outcome. If a god created me the way I am then he/she/it/whatever has no reason to complain.

That's simply your opinion. You have no idea what will happen to you if some God other than the Christian God actually exists. The same could be said for everyone.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Nothing you said changes what I posted. You're in one camp or the other regarding Christianity. It's a binary choice to the extent that anything you believe apart from it, whether in no gods or different gods, is still a no vote on Christianity.

Nope. It is not a no vote on my part. I call myself a sceptical atheist. Asking for proof before I accept the existence of a god is not a no vote.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

That's simply your opinion. You have no idea what will happen to you if some God other than the Christian God actually exists. The same could be said for everyone.

That is simply your opinion.

 

[veritas1]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Nope. It is not a no vote on my part. I call myself a sceptical atheist. Asking for proof before I accept the existence of a god is not a no vote.

Sure it is. If you do not believe in Christianity and go around demanding more than has already been provided, then you are voting no.

 

[veritas1]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

That is simply your opinion.

No, actually that's a fact. That you have no idea what will happen to you if some other god(s) exist, is clearly true. None of us would have any idea about that.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Sure it is. If you do not believe in Christianity and go around demanding more than has already been provided, then you are voting no.

I disagree. Nothing has been provided so no vote.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

No, actually that's a fact. That you have no idea what will happen to you if some other god(s) exist, is clearly true. None of us would have any idea about that.

You are assuming that a god exists. I don't and that is at the basis of our disagreement.

 

[devildavid]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Go read the NT. You can ONLY be saved prior to death. You have it 100% backwards.

That is not supported by the NT. Salvation comes after death at god's discretion.

 

[Nickyjo]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

No. Scripture is pretty straight forward. They have an opportunity to believe the truth. It's up to them to do so.

Scripture is pretty straight forward about a lot of things that don't make sense. Just read Leviticus. And there are other scriptures from other faiths that say both wonderful and absurd things as well. Is God that small that he provides us with intelligence and free will, then complains when we use them? Doesn't sound like the kind of guy I would want to spend eternity with.

 

[Logicman]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

That is not supported by the NT. Salvation comes after death at god's discretion.

Don't you Christ-deniers EVER read the Bible?

John 5:24 - Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

 

[Logicman]

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Scripture is pretty straight forward about a lot of things that don't make sense. Just read Leviticus. And there are other scriptures from other faiths that say both wonderful and absurd things as well. Is God that small that he provides us with intelligence and free will, then complains when we use them? Doesn't sound like the kind of guy I would want to spend eternity with.

You prefer spending eternity with the devil then in the Lake of Fire (Rev. 21:8). That's your only other choice.