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[W: 344][W:64]Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

So...were David and Peter "Sunday Christians"?

God considered David a man after his own heart, but David was far from a perfect person.
He lied, adultery, murder etc ...
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Which Christian denominations/sects teach salvation by faith, which teach salvation by works, which of the two is correct, and why is it correct ?

Good deeds start with FAITH. If you have faith, it will naturally be reflected through your works.


A person cannot have salvation without faith - Jesus stated that clearly.
"I'm the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)


Anyone can do good works.......... but faith is essential.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

God considered David a man after his own heart, but David was far from a perfect person.
He lied, adultery, murder etc ...

Yep, he was a screw up, but very, very human. Even Paul said he couldn't do the things he wanted to do and couldn't help but do the things he didn't want to do.

So rather than be myself I think this crowd would rather have me put on airs with my fake piety and look down my nose and lie with a smile on my face. Then I'd be just like them.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

"Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”

Another way to illustrate this is to consider the thief on the cross next to Jesus – the one who stated, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Then Jesus responded by saying, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:42-43). It was at this particular moment that the repentant thief received his salvation, and was justified righteous in the eyes of God. This particular moment would also coincide with Genesis 15:6, when Abraham believed God and it was credited (imputed to his account) as righteousness, and would also coincide with what Paul stated in Ephesians 2:8-9. Note that there is no evidence that the thief had performed any good works in his life. To the contrary, his works were more of a criminal nature than a Godly nature. That was the very reason he was being crucified. Even as he initially hung from his cross, he heaped insults on the Lord (Mark 15:32). But then the sky darkened, his pain and suffering magnified, and the words Jesus spoke on the cross hit their appointed target, and the thief had a change of heart and believed on the Lord. At that point, the thief received his salvation and justification. Now, if by some means the thief could have come down from the cross, prior to death, and continued on with his life, then eventually his saving faith would have produced good works (corresponding to Abraham in Genesis 22 and James chapter 2). There is a progression whereby salvation leads to good works. In the eyes of God, Abraham was genuinely justified righteous in Genesis 15:6. Because his faith was genuine, it produced his works in Genesis 22, whereby he was seen as being justified righteous in the eyes of men. James and Paul, though they approach the issue of justification from two different points in time and two different perspectives (the perspective of God and the perspective of man), nevertheless are in total agreement with each other."

Justification by Faith

https://righterreport.com/2011/12/1...-how-believers-are-declared-righteous-by-god/
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

No, I am saying you are making this up as you go along.

Youre the one who brought up monks, so I think you ought to stop projecting.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Youre the one who brought up monks, so I think you ought to stop projecting.

Sorry, did I lose you?
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Yep, he was a screw up, but very, very human. Even Paul said he couldn't do the things he wanted to do and couldn't help but do the things he didn't want to do.

So rather than be myself I think this crowd would rather have me put on airs with my fake piety and look down my nose and lie with a smile on my face. Then I'd be just like them.

works are a sign of faith but they do not lead to salvation.
For we are saved by grace through faith not of works least any man should boast.

The only work that the thief on the cross did was believe in Christ as the Son of God.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

works are a sign of faith but they do not lead to salvation.
For we are saved by grace through faith not of works least any man should boast.

The only work that the thief on the cross did was believe in Christ as the Son of God.

Thank God...
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

works are a sign of faith but they do not lead to salvation.
For we are saved by grace through faith not of works least any man should boast.

The only work that the thief on the cross did was believe in Christ as the Son of God.

Yes, and even that was a work of God.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." - John 6:44

In addition, God even gives people the faith to believe.

"Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you." - Romans 12:3
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

For those who believe they have to do works first, in order to win justification and THEN salvation, there's this work God requires them to do:

"Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” - John 6:29

Of course, when they believe they are justified by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 10:9-10, etc.).
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

I can't speak for the whole denomination (Church of Christ), but when I went to church, they tried to have it both ways: Saved by the grace of God, but faith without works is dead.

Honestly, I'm a little frightned of people who emphasize faith alone and use that to justify their actions. Such a person is capable of rationalizing anything they do.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

For those who believe they have to do works first, in order to win justification and THEN salvation, there's this work God requires them to do:

"Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” - John 6:29

Of course, when they believe they are justified by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 10:9-10, etc.).

Your argument is moot...no one has said that...:roll:
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Your argument is moot...no one has said that...:roll:

You're wrong again. Folks have said that many times in the past - perhaps not in this thread but in others.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Moderator's Warning:
Let's stick to discussing the OP and not go off in the weeds talking towards each other.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

I can't speak for the whole denomination (Church of Christ), but when I went to church, they tried to have it both ways: Saved by the grace of God, but faith without works is dead.

Honestly, I'm a little frightned of people who emphasize faith alone and use that to justify their actions. Such a person is capable of rationalizing anything they do.

I am worried by the "Bible alone" types. They don't have to concern themselves with reconciling their misinterpretations of scripture with the Doctors of the Church, scholars, or history. From those kinds of people you get the Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, and Heavens Gate cults. To them, it's always the "other guys" who are wrong, the other guys being the mainstream Church.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

I am worried by the "Bible alone" types. They don't have to concern themselves with reconciling their misinterpretations of scripture with the Doctors of the Church, scholars, or history. From those kinds of people you get the Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, and Heavens Gate cults. To them, it's always the "other guys" who are wrong, the other guys being the mainstream Church.

What an odd thing for someone to say who claims to be a minister of God...where these people went wrong was when they went beyond what was written in the scriptures...making claims that they themselves were a savior instead of pointing people to Christ...

The early Christians got along just fine without the early church fathers or any creeds...they had first-hand knowledge and passed that knowledge on to us with their writings...

Take the apostle, Paul for example...he enjoyed a successful ministry because he relied on the scriptures...nothing else was needed back then, just as nothing else is needed today for our ministry...

"So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures," Acts 17:2

6 Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.

7 But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory.

These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:6,7,13

You should try it sometime...
 
Re: [W:64]Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Which Christian denominations/sects teach salvation by faith, which teach salvation by works, which of the two is correct, and why is it correct ?

Does any Christian sect/denomination teach salvation by deed ?


Edit: does the Roman Catholic church still have indulgences as part of its doctrine ?
Or have they been officially denounced by the pope ?
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

What an odd thing for someone to say who claims to be a minister of God...where these people went wrong was when they went beyond what was written in the scriptures...making claims that they themselves were a savior instead of pointing people to Christ...

The early Christians got along just fine without the early church fathers or any creeds...they had first-hand knowledge and passed that knowledge on to us with their writings...

Take the apostle, Paul for example...he enjoyed a successful ministry because he relied on the scriptures...nothing else was needed back then, just as nothing else is needed today for our ministry...

"So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures," Acts 17:2

6 Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.

7 But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory.

These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:6,7,13

You should try it sometime...

Show me where it says you can't celebrate the savior's birthday, whenever it was, or the resurrection, whenever it was, for that matter, show me where the savior's death has saved you minus the resurrection, show me where the Bible says you can't get a blood transfusion, not some BS about "eating blood", I want to know where it says "Thou Shall Not Get a Blood Transfusion", show me the part where it says 144000 Jehovah's Witnesses will be the only ones allowed in Heaven. Once you've done all of that then tell me that you have not gone beyond - quite unnecessarily - the scriptures.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Show me where it says you can't celebrate the savior's birthday, whenever it was, or the resurrection, whenever it was, for that matter, show me where the savior's death has saved you minus the resurrection, show me where the Bible says you can't get a blood transfusion, not some BS about "eating blood", I want to know where it says "Thou Shall Not Get a Blood Transfusion", show me the part where it says 144000 Jehovah's Witnesses will be the only ones allowed in Heaven. Once you've done all of that then tell me that you have not gone beyond - quite unnecessarily - the scriptures.

lol...deflect much? Research birthdays for yourself...they're pagan...there were only 2 birthday celebrations recorded in the Bible, neither ended well...I have no idea what you're blabbering about the resurrection ...SMH...blood, it's in there...nowhere have I ever said JW's are the only ones going to heaven...another SMH...let me know when you you get your facts straight or even have the slightest idea what you're talking about...
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

lol...deflect much? Research birthdays for yourself...they're pagan...there were only 2 birthday celebrations recorded in the Bible, neither ended well...I have no idea what you're blabbering about the resurrection ...SMH...blood, it's in there...nowhere have I ever said JW's are the only ones going to heaven...another SMH...let me know when you you get your facts straight or even have the slightest idea what you're talking about...

So you don't know, you just spout this stuff with no proof. There is no scripture that says "thou shall not get blood transfusions", people just die needlessly.

My facts are straight, how about if you get your story straight and quit dodging? One more time, where are the scriptures that say "no birthdays" and "thou shall not speak of the saviors resurrection".
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Salvation is by faith alone. It is our faith which leads us to good works but those works are not what save us. Only faith in the risen Christ does.

Luke 23:33-43
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Salvation is by faith alone. It is our faith which leads us to good works but those works are not what save us. Only faith in the risen Christ does.

Luke 23:33-43

That is strange to use that quote since the one supposedly saved did not have faith in the "risen" christ at all.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

That is strange to use that quote since the one supposedly saved did not have faith in the "risen" christ at all.

What or who are you referring to?
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

To me that's like asking, who preaches hoodoo and who preaches voodoo.

Catholic Church teaches something called “baptism of desire.” It was the way that a person who never heard of Jesus or even rejected him could be saved by living a righteous life. Jesus gave enough hints about that. James said “faith without works is dead,” tho I believe that was removed from the Protestant bible. In my view, Luther overreacted to the abuses of the Catholic Church, causing his emphasis on faith due to the abuses of indulgences. I remember Jimmie Swaggert saying that all of Mother Teresa’s good works didn’t get her one step closer to heaven. Friend suggested that the good nun would probably be ahead of Jimmie in the line outside heaven. As a Catholic, the Protestant emphasis on faith seemed wierd, as if God was some sort of egomaniac (well, he is God, after all), not caring what you did so long as you believed in him.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Salvation is by faith alone. It is our faith which leads us to good works but those works are not what save us. Only faith in the risen Christ does.

Luke 23:33-43

Luke is entitled to his opinion. Plenty of biblical quotes suggest the opposite. Why should God care what we believe, so long as we do good?
 
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