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[W:#23,579]Ukraine War Thread

Chomsky said:
Interesting thread.

It looks like whether RU retreats or stands-their-ground, they meet the same fate. They ran earlier in the offensive, and now they stayed, and neither option produced success.

This is obviously why Putin is throwing more bodies at the problem through mobilization . . .
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DB81A4C5-7E77-491B-9159-9B1A89C52E81.jpeg
 
Fledermaus said:
Yes, war is hell. Human beings have an amazing capacity for designing things to remove fellow human beings from the gene pool.

This is different only in scale to Beehive rounds, canister shot, shrapnel shot, etc.

Gettysburg.

"Two gaps opened up in the Union line: the commander of the 71st Pennsylvania ordered his men to retreat when the Confederates came too close to the Angle; south of the copse of trees, the men of the 59th New York (Hall's brigade) inexplicably bolted for the rear. In the latter case, this left Captain Andrew Cowan and his 1st New York Independent Artillery Battery to face the oncoming infantry. Assisted personally by artillery chief Henry Hunt, Cowan ordered five guns to fire double canister simultaneously. The entire Confederate line to his front disappeared."

One unit from South Carolina effectively ceased to exist at that point.
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Agreed.

When I read JANFU's post and started penning a reply, it led me to reflect on how we (U.S.) used Fat Man at Hiroshima. So, weapons of mass human destruction in times of war are not unheard of.

BTW - If you ever want a riveting read, consider reading the old book "Hiroshima" by John Hersey, available (inexpensively) as in reprint:

(it was required reading in my Catholic Grammar School, and left an indelible impression upon me)

Hiroshima: Hersey, John: 9780679721031: Amazon.com: Books

Hiroshima [Hersey, John] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Hiroshima
www.amazon.com
 
Chomsky said:
Ugh. I realize all's fair in war, but a weapon like that still gives me a pit in my stomach. I intellectually understand the rationale, but it almost seems evil. Perhaps a 'necessary evil', but still a very sad thing to unleash upon fellow humanity.

Thanks for the heads-up. Argh!
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It is evil, war is evil.
Think of it like a oversized shot gun, but with 180.000 balls.
Same for the German Mars ammo, it puts out a minefield, infront of the fleeing troops, or in the middle of them.
 
Chomsky said:
Somehow, I don't see this ending in peaceful surrender.

Obviously, RU on the ground first instinct is to flee if possible. Remember, UKR has been highly propagandized by the RU propaganda machine as atrocious NAZI butchers. Who wants to surrender to that fate?

But Putin gave "not one step back" orders, and we see how desperate he has been lately & how direct he is in getting involved in the military. Putin is adamant in keeping throwing bodies into the death machine. What fate awaits those that flee or withdraw?

Then in addition, UKR does not want these RU men to re-fortify the immediate key tactical UKR objectives further E, or the earlier static defensive positions of pre-invasion that they are (hopefully eventually) retreating to. My understanding is those pre-invasion RU positions are established & extensively physically fortified defensive positions, and as such will allow RU forces to act more efficiently & effectively in defense with the resources they have available (similar to how RU held the Lyman E point of contact, forcing UKR to do an end-run pincer movement from the flanks). Why would UKR allow that re-fortification to occur?

So these guys, IMO, are screwed. I suspect they'll probable cut & run after suffering fairly devastating losses (incl 155 & HIMAR induced), and get additionally peppered on the escape.
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I dont think the average conscript gives a crap about Putins orders. Even much of the officer corps (such as it is) knows this is a disaster add low morale and Putins desires may not be taken into consideration.
 
Yakshi said:
Tonight's Ukrainian news is all about fast-tracking into NATO membership.
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I wonder how long it will take?

Because I'm thinking once they're an associate they become liable to full military protection.
 
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Schrott said:
It is evil, war is evil.
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Thanks for providing the direct principled clarity, that I did not! (y)

I believe Robert Opennheimer said it well, after the Trinity A-Bomb test:

“Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds”

Schrott said:
Think of it like a oversized shot gun, but with 180.000 balls.
Same for the German Mars ammo, it puts out a minefield, infront of the fleeing troops, or in the middle of them.
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Wasn't aware, but yeah - wow.
 
Quag said:
I dont think the average conscript gives a crap about Putins orders. Even much of the officer corps (such as it is) knows this is a disaster add low morale and Putins desires may not be taken into consideration.
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Yes, but military leadership on the ground will face consequences - as we can see with the recent rash of individuals falling off balconies or "committing suicide". We only hear of the very highest level important ones. I suspect there's much we don't know or see.
 
Fledermaus said:
Yes, war is hell. Human beings have an amazing capacity for designing things to remove fellow human beings from the gene pool.

This is different only in scale to Beehive rounds, canister shot, shrapnel shot, etc.

Gettysburg.

"Two gaps opened up in the Union line: the commander of the 71st Pennsylvania ordered his men to retreat when the Confederates came too close to the Angle; south of the copse of trees, the men of the 59th New York (Hall's brigade) inexplicably bolted for the rear. In the latter case, this left Captain Andrew Cowan and his 1st New York Independent Artillery Battery to face the oncoming infantry. Assisted personally by artillery chief Henry Hunt, Cowan ordered five guns to fire double canister simultaneously. The entire Confederate line to his front disappeared."

One unit from South Carolina effectively ceased to exist at that point.
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I visited the Landmine museum in Cambodia, that was a trip.
 
Am I the only one who's getting the really uneasy feeling that something super bad is about to go down?

 
Juks said:
Ukraine has fully retaken the city of Kupyansk. Already earlier in September, Ukrainian soldiers captured the city after a major offensive in the Kharkiv region. But Russian forces maintained their positions on the east bank of the Oskil River that runs through the city, and shelling has continued ever since.

www.ukrinform.net

Ukraineâs advance: Army liberates Kupyansk-Vuzlovyi in Kharkiv region, pushing Russians farther back

The settlement of Kupyansk-Vuzlovyi was released by the Kraken specops unit with the Main Intelligence Directorate of Ukraine’s Defense Ministry on September 27. â Ukrinform.
www.ukrinform.net www.ukrinform.net
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A major blow to Putzin for sure!
 
Chomsky said:
Yes, but military leadership on the ground will face consequences - as we can see with the recent rash of individuals falling off balconies or "committing suicide". We only hear of the very highest level important ones. I suspect there's much we don't know or see.
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You cant fall out of a window in Russia if you are in a Ukrainian POW camp ;)
 
reinaert said:
The money quote:

"..."I want the Kyiv authorities and their real masters in the West to hear me. For everyone to remember. People living in Luhansk and Donetsk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia are becoming our citizens. Forever," the Russian president said during the annexation ceremony..."

(CNN)
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From the outset there has been a large number of people, from both parties, as well and retired military officers (including the former head of Nato Command) that have urged the west to grasp that this is not a war that will be settled by Javlins and Stingers. Reality has taken sometime to settle upon the minds of western leaders, and some are still acting as if this is not a conventional and total war that can only be resolved by force of arms.

At this point there are no limits to providing hardware to Ukraine, except that which either does not contribute to their success or that which inventory is too low to provide. Putin has maxed out his escalation options (for conventional weapons) and as new convoys of equipment has been reported headed to Crimea the west better be listening.

Putin must be defeated by conventional means, every conventional means other than direct engagement. If it fails, it fails. We will accept that (most likely). But the ONLY route to saving Ukraine is surrender or victory. And victory can all come through either sending taking land or cutting off their supplies so completely so as to compel they to leave...or both.

18 Himars is a big step. The Congressional mandate to the military to start training Ukrainian pilots in October on F16s is another step. The next step, which should have been taken long ago, is to introduce ATACMS for a handful of special missions and bridges in Ukraine only, to seriously damage the flow of men and material to the front.

Putin cannot mobilize again without a major crisis (although he may try). Byelorussia has no interest in joining a losing cause after declining to join when it looked like Russia was winning.

Things like the stupid debate over whose going first to provide tanks has to end.
 
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