• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

[W:#2026]School's out forever: Arizona moves "to kill public education" with new universal voucher law

Private schools tend to have smaller class sizes than public schools.

Smaller class sizes means that more work can be covered IN class, and less homework necessary.

Being in a school with a smaller population and class size will give Johnny the opportunity to have more attention paid to Johnny while at school…and give the kid a chance at life that he may not have it he continues on in a public school with larger class sizes and being shuffled along, barely passing.
 
What is your point here?

I'll take the bait though - for 8 hours a day, Johnny gets a more focused, and probably better education. People that are there to help him to succeed in those 8 hours. Maybe with less administrative overhead, smaller class sizes, and a focused staff, Johnny will have a better chance to succeed.
 
Probably, but that’s not the crux of the problem. The one size fits all, students at the top and bottom of the class all need to be in the same classroom is a huge failure.
Who told you this?
 

I agree that the smaller class sizes will help him. But he'll still have the overwhelming weight of his homelife on his shoulders. He probably still won't do his homework, won't get adequate sleep, will be constantly worried about things that children shouldn't have to worry about, won't get enough to eat when he's home at night and during the weekends, etc.
 
Private schools tend to have smaller class sizes than public schools.
Depends entirely on the school. I did my student teaching in a school that had fewer in a graduating class than two of the private schools near me would average in a single classroom.
Smaller class sizes means that more work can be covered IN class, and less homework necessary.
And if Johnny doesn't want to do the work in class?
Being in a school with a smaller population and class size will give Johnny the opportunity to have more attention paid to Johnny while at school…
But Johnny doesn't want to do the work and he has no family to make him. So how does the private school teach Johnny?
 
Last edited:
What is your point here?
Private schools don't "outperform" public schools, private schools just discriminate in who they take. If you're only taking the better kids with better family support, then that doesn't make you a better school, it just means you have better talent.
I'll take the bait though - for 8 hours a day, Johnny gets a more focused, and probably better education. People that are there to help him to succeed in those 8 hours.
This is empty rhetoric. I'm asking "how"? How is the private school going to be more "focused"? When you say "better", in what way? And do you think there aren't tons of people in the public school that want to help him succeed?
Maybe with less administrative overhead
Not sure why you think this matters.
smaller class sizes
As I told Birdinhand, it depends entirely on the school. So I'm going to rule this out.
, and a focused staff, Johnny will have a better chance to succeed.
You don't think public school teachers are focused?

Every single person I've presented this challenge to has proven my point...private schools do not have a magic wand. They have no better solutions for the biggest issues facing public schools than public schools do, and, quite frankly, they are far less equipped to deal with them (for example, special education at most private schools pales in comparison to public school). Claiming private schools are "better" simply because they get to discriminate in what students they accept is silly.

Are there private schools that are better than public schools? Undoubtedly. Are there public schools that are better than private schools. Undoubtedly. At the end of the day, however, the success of a school is often as much about the caliber of the student (including family support structure) who is attending than anything else. Which is why I always say the biggest issues with public education are societal issues.
 
Last edited:
I agree that the smaller class sizes will help him.
The public school I did my student teaching in averages less than 20 students per grade level. Meaning there's zero assurances the private school will have smaller class sizes. In theory, yes, a smaller class size is better though.
 
OK. What is your point here?
 
This is true...now if only we could start to understand where that lack of value comes from....
I explained one of the things I think contributed to it, but something like that has no simple answers.
 
The public school I did my student teaching in averages less than 20 students per grade level. Meaning there's zero assurances the private school will have smaller class sizes. In theory, yes, a smaller class size is better though.

My worst class had 16 kids. My best class had over 20.
 
You can feel confident all you want, but nutball leftist schools have had multiple drag shows. You can disbelieve your lying eyes or you don't.
 
My worst class had 16 kids. My best class had over 20.
My worst class was actually one of the ones I've enjoyed the most. It was an 8th grade boys PE class with a little over 20 kids in it and they were ROUGH (as in fighting, cussing, etc.). They were a thorn in the side of every teacher, but I had all of them in one class. Drove me nuts and the only class where I ever wrote up more than one student for behavior issues.

But as bad as they were, they also could be hilarious and, when not in a classroom setting, enjoyable to talk to. I always dreaded that class, but I always enjoyed talking with the kids when they weren't in class. My best class ever was a 6th grade with well over 20 kids in it.
 
Canada doesn't have the flood of cheap labor coming into their country either.
 
So are you saying these other countries have a better culture and that better culture lets them better fund and organize their education systems?
Better culture regarding education. When you have a culture that values education more, and puts effort into it, you don't need money to get better results. The US spends more than any other country per student. It's not about the money.
 
Private schools don't "outperform" public schools, private schools just discriminate in who they take. If you're only taking the better kids with better family support, then that doesn't make you a better school, it just means you have better talent.
Then it was a swing and a miss. In general, yes they do perform better. Family support makes a difference, but it goes beyond that.

Private schools tend to be more lean - focused on education. Public schools tend to be handicapped by a bloated bureaucracy. In our state, half the employees are in non classroom positions (from 30% a few decades ago.)



As I told Birdinhand, it depends entirely on the school. So I'm going to rule this out.
Smaller class sizes make a difference.

You don't think public school teachers are focused?
Teachers? Yes. I happen to know a lot of public school teachers, and in general, they are hard working and dedicated. (Although there is a certain amount of mediocre ones that are coasting). It's the schools and the school districts that have a lack of focus.


Perhaps because you missed the point? Yes, there are public schools that are better than private schools - generally ones in better neighborhoods or that are in magnet programs. There are also a whole lot of public schools that are worse... and not getting better. Shouldn't parents be able to direct their students - and the state dollars that support them - to the school of their choice? One that will help them succeed?
 
God bless Arizona. What is wrong with school choice?

Quite a bit is wrong with it.

For starters:

1. State sponsored religious schools

2. Vouchers often favor those who are middle and upper class.

3. People who live in rural areas have fewer choices.

4. Children with disabilities already face educational choice discrimination. Yes, I know. The law guarantees a free and appropriate equal education but frequently the law is ignored.

5. Children whose native language is not English will have fewer school choices.

6. Pure school choice based on vouchers will cost tax payers more money.
 
Public school is great for middle of the road students. It fails students in either end of the intelligence spectrum.
More so on the low end. Kids who are at the top end will succeed in any environment, public or private. As an example, I have a high achieving grandchild who recently scored over 1500 on their SAT and only attended public school throughout K-12. Clearly, public school didn't fail them.
 
more horse shit you are unable to substantiate

[emphasis below added by bubba to demonstrate the above presentation is other than factual]

the only benefit of this voucher program will be

to allow some white kids to go to school with other white kids

and

to offer a $7000 rebate to the parents who are already sending their kids to private schools
 
Better culture regarding education. When you have a culture that values education more, and puts effort into it, you don't need money to get better results. The US spends more than any other country per student. It's not about the money.

It definitely IS about the money in Arizona.

As for culture regarding education, name 5 countries who value education more than the US.

1. Canada (that's a gimme for you)

2.

3.

4.

5.
 
The benefit will be giving many more parents a choice - including a lot of middle and lower class kids the opportunity to go to better schools.
 
The benefit will be giving many more parents a choice - including a lot of middle and lower class kids the opportunity to go to better schools.
you failed to offer a cite which would defend the bullshit you posted above
 
It was interesting to reach your comment after just making the exact opposite point. I haven't been in school for decades but it seemed to me that the kids who struggled (and I'd sure agree they tended to have the worst and most uninvolved, uninterested parents) usually graduated high school still struggling. The top kids never did slow down or suffer based on public education.
I think the difference we might most notice is that the average kids might often really exceed their public school potential if in a private school environment.
 
Wait until the far right christian nutters learn that private schools are not all Christian. Many private schools lean pretty far left.
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…