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[W:#2026]School's out forever: Arizona moves "to kill public education" with new universal voucher law

BirdinHand

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I'll present you the same challenge I've presented others:

Johnny lives at home with three siblings (two brothers and one sister). Dad is in jail, mom is constantly hooking up and staying overnight with men who are providing her drugs. Johnny has no family support, is responsible for his siblings, has little to no food in the house, and virtually no time for the homework he doesn't want to do in the first place.

Johnny goes to public school and barely passes. Please tell me how sending him to a private school is going to improve Johnny's education, when dad will still be in jail, Mom will still be doing drugs and hooking up with random men, there still will be little to no food in the house, and there still will be no one to make Johnny do his homework he doesn't want to do because he's busy babysitting his siblings.

Please tell me how the private school will make Johnny a better student.
Private schools tend to have smaller class sizes than public schools.

Smaller class sizes means that more work can be covered IN class, and less homework necessary.

Being in a school with a smaller population and class size will give Johnny the opportunity to have more attention paid to Johnny while at school…and give the kid a chance at life that he may not have it he continues on in a public school with larger class sizes and being shuffled along, barely passing.
 

dcsports

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I'll present you the same challenge I've presented others:

Johnny lives at home with three siblings (two brothers and one sister). Dad is in jail, mom is constantly hooking up and staying overnight with men who are providing her drugs. Johnny has no family support, is responsible for his siblings, has little to no food in the house, and virtually no time for the homework he doesn't want to do in the first place.

Johnny goes to public school and barely passes. Please tell me how sending him to a private school is going to improve Johnny's education, when dad will still be in jail, Mom will still be doing drugs and hooking up with random men, there still will be little to no food in the house, and there still will be no one to make Johnny do his homework he doesn't want to do because he's busy babysitting his siblings.

Please tell me how the private school will make Johnny a better student.
What is your point here?

I'll take the bait though - for 8 hours a day, Johnny gets a more focused, and probably better education. People that are there to help him to succeed in those 8 hours. Maybe with less administrative overhead, smaller class sizes, and a focused staff, Johnny will have a better chance to succeed.
 

reflechissez

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Probably, but that’s not the crux of the problem. The one size fits all, students at the top and bottom of the class all need to be in the same classroom is a huge failure.
Who told you this?
 

Josie

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What is your point here?

I'll take the bait though - for 8 hours a day, Johnny gets a more focused, and probably better education. People that are there to help him to succeed in those 8 hours. Maybe with less administrative overhead, smaller class sizes, and a focused staff, Johnny will have a better chance to succeed.

I agree that the smaller class sizes will help him. But he'll still have the overwhelming weight of his homelife on his shoulders. He probably still won't do his homework, won't get adequate sleep, will be constantly worried about things that children shouldn't have to worry about, won't get enough to eat when he's home at night and during the weekends, etc.
 

Slyfox696

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Private schools tend to have smaller class sizes than public schools.
Depends entirely on the school. I did my student teaching in a school that had fewer in a graduating class than two of the private schools near me would average in a single classroom.
Smaller class sizes means that more work can be covered IN class, and less homework necessary.
And if Johnny doesn't want to do the work in class?
Being in a school with a smaller population and class size will give Johnny the opportunity to have more attention paid to Johnny while at school…
But Johnny doesn't want to do the work and he has no family to make him. So how does the private school teach Johnny?
 
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Slyfox696

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What is your point here?
Private schools don't "outperform" public schools, private schools just discriminate in who they take. If you're only taking the better kids with better family support, then that doesn't make you a better school, it just means you have better talent.
I'll take the bait though - for 8 hours a day, Johnny gets a more focused, and probably better education. People that are there to help him to succeed in those 8 hours.
This is empty rhetoric. I'm asking "how"? How is the private school going to be more "focused"? When you say "better", in what way? And do you think there aren't tons of people in the public school that want to help him succeed?
Maybe with less administrative overhead
Not sure why you think this matters.
smaller class sizes
As I told Birdinhand, it depends entirely on the school. So I'm going to rule this out.
, and a focused staff, Johnny will have a better chance to succeed.
You don't think public school teachers are focused?

Every single person I've presented this challenge to has proven my point...private schools do not have a magic wand. They have no better solutions for the biggest issues facing public schools than public schools do, and, quite frankly, they are far less equipped to deal with them (for example, special education at most private schools pales in comparison to public school). Claiming private schools are "better" simply because they get to discriminate in what students they accept is silly.

Are there private schools that are better than public schools? Undoubtedly. Are there public schools that are better than private schools. Undoubtedly. At the end of the day, however, the success of a school is often as much about the caliber of the student (including family support structure) who is attending than anything else. Which is why I always say the biggest issues with public education are societal issues.
 
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Slyfox696

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I agree that the smaller class sizes will help him.
The public school I did my student teaching in averages less than 20 students per grade level. Meaning there's zero assurances the private school will have smaller class sizes. In theory, yes, a smaller class size is better though.
 

dcsports

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I agree that the smaller class sizes will help him. But he'll still have the overwhelming weight of his homelife on his shoulders. He probably still won't do his homework, won't get adequate sleep, will be constantly worried about things that children shouldn't have to worry about, won't get enough to eat when he's home at night and during the weekends, etc.
OK. What is your point here?
 

Fishking

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This is true...now if only we could start to understand where that lack of value comes from....
I explained one of the things I think contributed to it, but something like that has no simple answers.
 

Josie

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The public school I did my student teaching in averages less than 20 students per grade level. Meaning there's zero assurances the private school will have smaller class sizes. In theory, yes, a smaller class size is better though.

My worst class had 16 kids. My best class had over 20.
 

Fishking

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I don't know one teacher at any of the three high schools that I have taught at in two countries in over twenty years who has anything political up in their rooms beyond pictures of Gandhi or the Tank Man or Rosie the Riveter. I think we had one teacher that had a rainbow flag up but she ran the school's LGBTQ group.

So you also think that there is a systemic problem with cops arresting innocent people, lying on police reports, shooting people, etc etc etc as well then. Good.

I have no idea if that video is true and after she mentioned that "Satan is after the kids" I feel pretty confident in calling that all bullshit.
You can feel confident all you want, but nutball leftist schools have had multiple drag shows. You can disbelieve your lying eyes or you don't.
 

Slyfox696

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My worst class had 16 kids. My best class had over 20.
My worst class was actually one of the ones I've enjoyed the most. It was an 8th grade boys PE class with a little over 20 kids in it and they were ROUGH (as in fighting, cussing, etc.). They were a thorn in the side of every teacher, but I had all of them in one class. Drove me nuts and the only class where I ever wrote up more than one student for behavior issues.

But as bad as they were, they also could be hilarious and, when not in a classroom setting, enjoyable to talk to. I always dreaded that class, but I always enjoyed talking with the kids when they weren't in class. My best class ever was a 6th grade with well over 20 kids in it.
 

Fishking

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1) The average American works longer hours and take fewer holidays than their Canadian counterparts but this isn't reflected in their quality of life - in terms of life expectancy, access to healthcare, education, employment opportunities, home ownership, personal safety, upward mobility .....

2) Americans don't need to "double-down" and worker harder, they should be demanding a more economically and socially equitable society where the 99% share in the nation's prosperity!

3) Americans have been programmed to dismiss as "socialism" Canada's commitment the nation's commitment to institutions, such as its public healthcare system - whatever its deficiencies, the fact remains that it has achieved better outcomes than the US (lower pharmaceutical costs, extending life expectancy) while devoting significantly less of its GDP to medical care!
Canada doesn't have the flood of cheap labor coming into their country either.
 

Fishking

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So are you saying these other countries have a better culture and that better culture lets them better fund and organize their education systems?
Better culture regarding education. When you have a culture that values education more, and puts effort into it, you don't need money to get better results. The US spends more than any other country per student. It's not about the money.
 

dcsports

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Private schools don't "outperform" public schools, private schools just discriminate in who they take. If you're only taking the better kids with better family support, then that doesn't make you a better school, it just means you have better talent.
Then it was a swing and a miss. In general, yes they do perform better. Family support makes a difference, but it goes beyond that.

[silly statement removed] I'm asking "how"? How is the private school going to be more "focused"? When you say "better", in what way? And do you think there aren't tons of people in the public school that want to help him succeed?

Not sure why you think this matters.
Private schools tend to be more lean - focused on education. Public schools tend to be handicapped by a bloated bureaucracy. In our state, half the employees are in non classroom positions (from 30% a few decades ago.)



As I told Birdinhand, it depends entirely on the school. So I'm going to rule this out.
Smaller class sizes make a difference.

You don't think public school teachers are focused?
Teachers? Yes. I happen to know a lot of public school teachers, and in general, they are hard working and dedicated. (Although there is a certain amount of mediocre ones that are coasting). It's the schools and the school districts that have a lack of focus.


Every single person I've presented this challenge to has proven my point...private schools do not have a magic wand. They have no better solutions for the biggest issues facing public schools than public schools do, and, quite frankly, they are far less equipped to deal with them (for example, special education at most private schools pales in comparison to public school). Claiming private schools are "better" simply because they get to discriminate in what students they accept is silly.

Are there private schools that are better than public schools? Undoubtedly. Are there public schools that are better than private schools. Undoubtedly. At the end of the day, however, the success of a school is often as much about the caliber of the student (including family support structure) who is attending than anything else. Which is why I always say the biggest issues with public education are societal issues.
Perhaps because you missed the point? Yes, there are public schools that are better than private schools - generally ones in better neighborhoods or that are in magnet programs. There are also a whole lot of public schools that are worse... and not getting better. Shouldn't parents be able to direct their students - and the state dollars that support them - to the school of their choice? One that will help them succeed?
 

Risky Thicket

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God bless Arizona. What is wrong with school choice?

Quite a bit is wrong with it.

For starters:

1. State sponsored religious schools

2. Vouchers often favor those who are middle and upper class.

3. People who live in rural areas have fewer choices.

4. Children with disabilities already face educational choice discrimination. Yes, I know. The law guarantees a free and appropriate equal education but frequently the law is ignored.

5. Children whose native language is not English will have fewer school choices.

6. Pure school choice based on vouchers will cost tax payers more money.
 

gbg3

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Public school is great for middle of the road students. It fails students in either end of the intelligence spectrum.
More so on the low end. Kids who are at the top end will succeed in any environment, public or private. As an example, I have a high achieving grandchild who recently scored over 1500 on their SAT and only attended public school throughout K-12. Clearly, public school didn't fail them.
 

justabubba

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What are some of the studies?

Private schools outperform public schools almost universally. Yes, a good portion of that is due to parents and kids who want to go to school, and the ability of the schools to focus most of their resources on education, but they do better. Why shouldn't families who make less be able to take the tax dollars allocated to them from the state and go to a better school?

And most aren't 'fancy'. Lots of private schools service middle class families, and doe it on a shoestring.
more horse shit you are unable to substantiate

[emphasis below added by bubba to demonstrate the above presentation is other than factual]
… Contrary to the image created by some private school advocates, the overwhelming number of students in private schools are white. Approximately 46 percent of private schools enroll less than 5 percent minority students. …

… Because private schools can be selective, they can exclude academically or socially difficult children, eliminating many services required in the public sector. …

… Researcher Richard Murnane found that private school students score higher on achievement tests than public school students because they come from more advantaged homes and bring more skills to school with them. Moreover, when comparisons between public and private schools take into account the selectivity bias of private schools–who is admitted, who is expelled, and the quality of the student body–the differences virtually disappear.

… In short, comparisons between private schools and public schools are extremely problematic. Comparisons in terms of inter-sectional achievement scores are misleading because they fail to take into account selectivity bias–and the differences between scores are quite small in any case. …

… Our goal should not be to increase enrollment in private schools through the use of vouchers to create more educational opportunities and pursue upward mobility. Such a policy will most likely decrease mobility because creating more middle- and low-status private schools will have no impact on mobility but will remove vital resources from public schools. …

… the public funding of private education will have virtually no impact on increasing upward mobility or creating greater educational opportunities for those who do not come from the financially favored classes. …

the only benefit of this voucher program will be

to allow some white kids to go to school with other white kids

and

to offer a $7000 rebate to the parents who are already sending their kids to private schools
 

Risky Thicket

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Better culture regarding education. When you have a culture that values education more, and puts effort into it, you don't need money to get better results. The US spends more than any other country per student. It's not about the money.

It definitely IS about the money in Arizona.

As for culture regarding education, name 5 countries who value education more than the US.

1. Canada (that's a gimme for you)

2.

3.

4.

5.
 

dcsports

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more horse shit you are unable to substantiate

[emphasis below added by bubba to demonstrate the above presentation is other than factual]


the only benefit of this voucher program will be

to allow some white kids to go to school with other white kids

and

to offer a $7000 rebate to the parents who are already sending their kids to private schools
The benefit will be giving many more parents a choice - including a lot of middle and lower class kids the opportunity to go to better schools.
 

justabubba

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The benefit will be giving many more parents a choice - including a lot of middle and lower class kids the opportunity to go to better schools.
you failed to offer a cite which would defend the bullshit you posted above
 

gbg3

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In my experience that is true for the kids on the higher than average side, but isn't true for the kids on the lowest end. We literally spend millions of dollars targeted at helping those kids who need the most academic help. The problem isn't the schools or teachers or admins or curriculum -- it's the parents. Give me almost no money and a class full of kids who are reading below or way below grade level who have parents who are interested and involved and almost all of those kids will be at grade level, above grade level or close to meeting grade level by the end of the year.

Thinking back over my years as a teacher, I would say 98% of the kids who are the furthest behind have the worst parents.
It was interesting to reach your comment after just making the exact opposite point. I haven't been in school for decades but it seemed to me that the kids who struggled (and I'd sure agree they tended to have the worst and most uninvolved, uninterested parents) usually graduated high school still struggling. The top kids never did slow down or suffer based on public education.
I think the difference we might most notice is that the average kids might often really exceed their public school potential if in a private school environment.
 

FreedomFromAll

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Wait until the far right christian nutters learn that private schools are not all Christian. Many private schools lean pretty far left.
 
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