[W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Bernie Supporters — BSers — have their own special brand of fascist behavior.

So I'm a fascist?

 

[JasperL]

I have every confidence in the bully pulpit, particularly if we flip the Senate on the basis of Sanders' promises and policy.

Conversely, I have exactly zero confidence that MFA would exist in any form resembling SP off the back of a Bloomberg presidency, and Bloomberg tenure Senate flip, but since you said 'MFA' and not MFA for all who want it, or other such nonsense, yes, as a thought experiment where those are the parameters I have no doubt Bloomberg would spike it.

FWIW, as we've discussed, part of why I'm against Bernie is this MFA or Bust attitude. Look around the world if you want - Medicare for all or the equivalent single payer system is the minority system, and there are about 40 ways to get to UHC which is IMO the proper goal, the alternatives have the advantage of not upending 20% of the economy. But we disagree on that, which is partly why we disagree on candidates.

I'm willing to try, and will happily vote for anyone pushing it as their plan, but IMO when it fails I hope we don't decide that it's that or nothing.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

With Sanders as the nominee, Democrats will finish closer to 40 Senators than 60, lose the House, and get clobbered in the 50 state legislatures that write the 99 state remaps and 43 federal remaps.

I've always been interested in understanding how the "toxic down ballot" theory works because it sounds like:
"I love Congressman X and I love Senator Y, but because Z is running for POTUS, I won't vote for my favorite Senator and Congressman."

How does that work? It sounds like:

"I am punishing my favorite Congressman and Senator because Sanders is the POTUS nominee."

How does that compute?

 

[Linc]

You're the poster child of feckless Democrats.

Character and Responsibility are traits bernie bros will NEVER have to worry about being accused of, CMPancake. All bb’s want is a life full of freebies without paying their way.

I voted for one McGovern when I was 18-yo in 1972, knowing he’d get slaughtered. I’ll do everything I can to prevent another McGovern in the name of sanders from getting the nomination.

 

[Linc]

I've always been interested in understanding how the "toxic down ballot" theory works because it sounds like:
"I love Congressman X and I love Senator Y, but because Z is running for POTUS, I won't vote for my favorite Senator and Congressman."

How does that work? It sounds like:

"I am punishing my favorite Congressman and Senator because Sanders is the POTUS nominee."

How does that compute?

Ask your fellow bernie bros that DID NOT turn out to vote AT ALL. It’s pretty hard to vote down-ballot when you don’t vote at all.

That’s why we don’t have a Sen. Finegold in Wisconsin. Instead we got one of Russia’s favorite senators, ron johnson.

 

[Surrealistik]

FWIW, as we've discussed, part of why I'm against Bernie is this MFA or Bust attitude. Look around the world if you want - Medicare for all or the equivalent single payer system is the minority system, and there are about 40 ways to get to UHC which is IMO the proper goal, the alternatives have the advantage of not upending 20% of the economy. But we disagree on that, which is partly why we disagree on candidates.

I'm willing to try, and will happily vote for anyone pushing it as their plan, but IMO when it fails I hope we don't decide that it's that or nothing.

I don't have an 'MFA or Bust' attitude. I'm simply of the opinion that it is the better choice, particularly given how dangerous it is to keep the health insurance industry around as a powerful lobby, which will ceaselessly aim to pervert, undermine and twist health reform legislation to their benefit and the public's expense.

I'm open to a hybrid UHC system, but any such solution must have a strong focus on cost controls, and it must not amount to yet another health insurance subsidy/giveaway, de facto or de jure, masquerading as health reform.

Sorry but MY POLLS are for anyone who is considering voting Dem.

I am referring to this poll.

 

[CMPancake]

Character and Responsibility are traits bernie bros will NEVER have to worry about being accused of, CMPancake. All bb’s want is a life full of freebies without paying their way.

I want people to be able to live in America without literally dying from preventable diseases. If you can look at the healthcare system we have brought to us by Democrats and think it's fine that thousands of Americans are dying every year and even more of them going bankrupt to get that care is fine then you're a ****ty person.

I voted for one McGovern when I was 18-yo in 1972, knowing he’d get slaughtered. I’ll do everything I can to prevent another McGovern in the name of sanders from getting the nomination.

Ok boomer.

 

[Linc]

So I'm a fascist?

Are you a bernie bro?

You know god damn well who I’m talking to and their ****in petulant behavior in promising to give us 4 more years of fascist trump.

You see these punk-ass bitch bros using fascist trump behavior to go after every EVERY Democratic contender.

And ‘most’ bernie bros are extremely pleased at what trumpco has done to Biden.

 

[Linc]

I want people to be able to live in America without literally dying from preventable diseases. If you can look at the healthcare system we have brought to us by Democrats and think it's fine that thousands of Americans are dying every year and even more of them going bankrupt to get that care is fine then you're a ****ty person. Ok boomer.

Calling someone a ****ty person by projecting your own delusional LIEs is typical of your ilk, CMPancake.

 

[Phys251]

I've always been interested in understanding how the "toxic down ballot" theory works because it sounds like:
"I love Congressman X and I love Senator Y, but because Z is running for POTUS, I won't vote for my favorite Senator and Congressman."

How does that work? It sounds like:

"I am punishing my favorite Congressman and Senator because Sanders is the POTUS nominee."

How does that compute?

Wait. You think that voters never take out their dislike of a presidential candidate on downballot candidates?

 

[CMPancake]

Calling someone a ****ty person by projecting your own delusional LIEs is typical of your ilk, CMPancake.

You've said on more than one occasion that you think poor people shouldn't be given "freebies" in the form of life-saving medical treatment. I don't care about what you think of me or my ilk.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Ask your fellow bernie bros that DID NOT turn out to vote AT ALL. It’s pretty hard to vote down-ballot when you don’t vote at all.

That’s why we don’t have a Sen. Finegold in Wisconsin. Instead we got one of Russia’s favorite senators, ron johnson.

I don't personally know any who stayed home, and you know me, I get around.
I know OF one or two, but I don't even know anyone here at DP who "plan to stay home and not vote".
Maybe they can jump up and say "Here I am!" to help your theory.

My theory is, a segment of them DID stay home in 2016 and now that they've been burned, far fewer of them will do that.
But I know that won't change your stance or your theory:
"If you like Sanders, you are automatically a hostile Bernie Bro, period."

I know you're dug in deep with that, and it's a pity, because so far no facts are backing you up.

As of this writing, it's 18 to 5.
And the POLL is only four hours old!

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Are you a bernie bro?

You know god damn well who I’m talking to and their ****in petulant behavior in promising to give us 4 more years of fascist trump.

You see these punk-ass bitch bros using fascist trump behavior to go after every EVERY Democratic contender.

And ‘most’ bernie bros are extremely pleased at what trumpco has done to Biden.

I support Bernie, you're the one tagging every Bernie supporter as a "Bro" despite the miserable poor poll results that say otherwise. One is anonymous and the other is public, so in a few days we should have a comprehensive comparison study.

But here's the part you're having difficulty with, the fact that, if someone is going to vote for him in the primaries, you say they are a Bro. Even if they also say that they will support the eventual nominee, they're STILL a Bernie Bro.

Or, you think that, if they will vote for the nominee, then they aren't Sanders supporters.
Which is it, Linc?

In your mind is it even possible that someone can support Bernie but also agree to support whichever Dem wins the primaries or is that an impossibility? Does that disqualify them as Sanders supporters entirely?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Wait. You think that voters never take out their dislike of a presidential candidate on downballot candidates?

Never and always are very powerful words, and in physics, both are rare, would you agree?

 

[RedAkston]

Moderator's Warning:

Knock off the personal attacks and stick to the topic.

 

[Phys251]

Never and always are very powerful words, and in physics, both are rare, would you agree?

I don't think you understand. You implied that there was zero effect by the presidential candidates on downballot candidates. Are you sure you want to make that your position?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I don't think you understand. You implied that there was zero effect by the presidential candidates on downballot candidates. Are you sure you want to make that your position?

Never said "zero" either.
I just don't think it's automatic, universal or even a majority position.

People who bother to vote, a lot of them anyway, want to have senators and congressmen who they think serve their needs.
And in fact, with the specter of Trump determined to cheat by any means necessary, for Dems, the necessity of stacking Congress as a pushback against him is, at this point in time, gaining traction.
For the first time in his entire career Mitch has a challenger who is almost neck and neck with him and his tenure may come to a crashing end.
And that's just Mitch.

Don't forget, Phyzzie ole boy, the Tea Party booted out almost all the old traditional conservative, and in the last three years, the Trumpers have nearly finished the job, hence why Mitt now sticks out like a sore thumb.

So don't be so sure that "down ballot anger" at a Bernie POTUS will "infect" down ballot races.
If anything, it MIGHT make Dem voters select more moderate Dem Congress critters but the odds on that are even in question because the youth vote on that is not set in stone either.
I'd feel better informed if I was up to date on the profiles of all the Dem Congress hopefuls for the 2020 field.
If they are majority moderate that helps your general position.

OR....they might sweep a bunch of progressives in for a majority progressive sweep of both houses.

But think carefully about what voters think of another Republican sweep in both chambers and what that would mean regardless of WHO wins the POTUS. My gut feeling, and I am perfectly willing to admit I may be wrong, is that the tenured GOP incumbents in both House and Senate are about to get their asses handed to them after their recent "performance" in service to the Orange Baboon.

So while some moderates will be pissed enough to do what you think, I say more of them are terrified of what a GOP success in House and Senate will mean for them, regardless of who is in the White House next year.

Again, repeating for all needing, I LIKE Bernie, I like him a LOT.
But if this all going to boil down to a war, my pragmatism will kick in.
Thing is, if we wind up with a nice safe bland vanilla moderate, with a Dem majority in both chambers of Congress, maybe it's not the end of the world.
If we wind up with a nice safe bland vanilla moderate with the kind of Congress we have now, we might as well have Trump for another four years because today's Party of Trump in the Senate will destroy that moderate POTUS no matter what, and in 2024 the Trump dynasty will be back in power.

 

[Felis Leo]

Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the democrat nomination will you vote for the candidate that does?

Perhaps the question should be "If Bernie doesn't win the Democrat nomination as a result of obvious DNC meddling to throw the race to an "electable candidate" will you vote for the candidate who won?"

 

[JasperL]

Perhaps the question should be "If Bernie doesn't win the Democrat nomination as a result of obvious DNC meddling to throw the race to an "electable candidate" will you vote for the candidate who won?"

I don't know if you're pushing that line or not, but I'm tired of hearing it, especially from Bernie supporters. First off, he's not a Democrat except in election years so it's not surprising the DNC types don't support him. When you make a show of leaving the party when the ink is dry on the election results, it doesn't generate long term loyalty from the party faithful, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Second, my goodness, the establishment HATED Trump, and he won, and is President. So the "but the DNC!!!" is just pre-emptive pathetic excuse making IMO. If Bernie can't take on the DNC and win, **** him. He can't govern like he wants if he's that pathetic and weak. He's got a huge number of loyal fans and if he's not able to use that to win a nomination, I don't care about his and his supporters' excuses. And if he can't beat the DNC, he sure as hell has NO chance against the massive piles of money and people far more powerful than the little incompetents at the DNC, the guys and money who OWN the DNC and RNC, that's ready to attack him relentlessly should he win and try anything on his agenda.

 

[joko104]

Bloomberg is currently 2nd not 3rd, though 2,3 & 4 are neck & neck:

75453
BERNIE SANDERS
+125

75454
MICHAEL BLOOMBERG
+375

75452
PETE BUTTIGIEG
+425

75451
JOE BIDEN
+450

If there is one candidate Bernie supporters will never support it's Bloomberg. Bloomberg
therefore presents a Trump landslide victory

Like I said, Sanders is really, really bad news for the Democratic Party. He is a Socialist Worker's Party candidate raiding the Democratic Party. Are Americans ready to vote for a socialist? No. So it appears Sanders is going to deliver another Trump victory if you are accurate that Sanders supporters wouldn't vote for Bloomberg. But it will only harm a Bloomberg candidate to a limited degree. If the election is tight, Sanders having run will AGAIN make Trump the president.

 

[joko104]

A moderate Democrat would give Democrats control of the Supreme Court. Despite all the talk about healthcare and immigration, what will MOST be decided is the next decade (or longer) of the next Supreme Court Justice. All the legislation Congress passes or the president wants is worthless if the Supreme Court won't allow it.

The Democrats only need hold the House to block most of the Republican/Trump agenda as a worse case scenario. If the Democrats really do run a raging old white haired socialist in November they are gambling losing everything - the presidency, both houses of Congress and the Supreme Court.

 

[Greenbeard]

FWIW, as we've discussed, part of why I'm against Bernie is this MFA or Bust attitude. Look around the world if you want - Medicare for all or the equivalent single payer system is the minority system, and there are about 40 ways to get to UHC which is IMO the proper goal, the alternatives have the advantage of not upending 20% of the economy. But we disagree on that, which is partly why we disagree on candidates.

Every Democrat's goal is getting to universal coverage (regardless of the path), something we'd all do well to remember.

 

[Felis Leo]

I don't know if you're pushing that line or not, but I'm tired of hearing it, especially from Bernie supporters. First off, he's not a Democrat except in election years so it's not surprising the DNC types don't support him. When you make a show of leaving the party when the ink is dry on the election results, it doesn't generate long term loyalty from the party faithful, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Here is my thought, JasperL: I do not want Bernie Sanders to win the nomination.

I realize that there are some on the right, both here and elsewhere, shedding crocodile tears for Bernie Sanders and commiserating with folks on the far-left about how terribly and unfairly the Democratic Party establishment and rank-and-file Democratic voters are on Sanders and his supporters. And they do this because they want Bernie Sanders to win the nomination because he will supposedly make Donald Trump's reelection a shoe-in. That he is almost certain to lose in a national election.

Be that as it may, I do not want him to win, because I do not want some disgusting Socialist who was an out-and-out apologist for the USSR, Maoist China and Soviet puppet states in Central America and managed to get into Congress after the House Un-American Activities Committee was disestablished to be within spitting distance of the Presidency. I hope the Democrats have the spine and moral fortitude to kick the pinko to the curb. I would much rather Donald Trump lose to a Democrat who likes America and does not fundamentally see our country, its freedoms and its governmental system as a wellspring of injustice and who would use all executive power at his disposal to tear the system apart root and branch as I think Bernie Sanders would.

Second, my goodness, the establishment HATED Trump, and he won, and is President. So the "but the DNC!!!" is just pre-emptive pathetic excuse making IMO. If Bernie can't take on the DNC and win, **** him. He can't govern like he wants if he's that pathetic and weak. He's got a huge number of loyal fans and if he's not able to use that to win a nomination, I don't care about his and his supporters' excuses. And if he can't beat the DNC, he sure as hell has NO chance against the massive piles of money and people far more powerful than the little incompetents at the DNC, the guys and money who OWN the DNC and RNC, that's ready to attack him relentlessly should he win and try anything on his agenda.

Agreed.

 

[Surrealistik]

Here is my thought, JasperL: I do not want Bernie Sanders to win the nomination.

I realize that there are some on the right, both here and elsewhere, shedding crocodile tears for Bernie Sanders and commiserating with folks on the far-left about how terribly and unfairly the Democratic Party establishment and rank-and-file Democratic voters are on Sanders and his supporters. And they do this because they want Bernie Sanders to win the nomination because he will supposedly make Donald Trump's reelection a shoe-in. That he is almost certain to lose in a national election.

Be that as it may, I do not want him to win, because I do not want some disgusting Socialist who was an out-and-out apologist for the USSR, Maoist China and Soviet puppet states in Central America and managed to get into Congress after the House Un-American Activities Committee was disestablished to be within spitting distance of the Presidency. I hope the Democrats have the spine and moral fortitude to kick the pinko to the curb. I would much rather Donald Trump lose to a Democrat who likes America and does not see it as a wellspring of injustice and would use all executive power at his disposal to tear the system apart root and branch.

You've got it totally wrong.

The intent is to sow division and discord and undermine party discipline and unity.

The rest of your post is raving nonsense.

 

[Felis Leo]

You've got it totally wrong.

The intent is to sow division and discord and get Dems screaming at each other.

I do not think so. That is simply short-term schadenfreude. I have heard enough members of the right-wing commentariat wring their hands with glee at the thought of an unelectable socialist like Sanders taking the Democratic nomination because they think it absolutely ensures Donald Trump's reelection, in the same way the Democrats in 2016 were gleeful at the thought of Donald Trump taking the Republican nomination would ensure their own victory.

Getting into the practice of choosing your opponents is like the art of whistling the best tune you can think of while walking past the graveyard.

The rest of your post is raving nonsense.

Bernie Sanders was an apologist for some of the worst regimes of the twentieth century, and tut-tutted some of the worst atrocities in human history. You may continue to deny reality at your pleasure, Surrealistik. And unfortunately for the Democrats if he takes the nomination, enough people are alive who lived during the Cold War who were not useful idiots or fellow-traveller pinkos like Sanders. While I do not think is prospects are good, his loss is far from inevitable and, again, I do not want to take a chance such a person could take the Presidency.