Venezuela-Do you approve of USA interference in Venezuelan Politics? (1 Viewer)

[DaveFagan]

A simple question?

Do you approve of USA interference in Venezuelan Politics?

Starting with OBAMA, sanctions against Venezuela have caused extreme poverty there.
Venezuela is a Socialist Nation a/k/a Bolivarian Republic.
Maduro is elected in May 2018 with a 60% najority.
Does the USA have any right to cause poverty and chaos in Venezuela?

YES!
NO!
Other and please explain!

 

[Rexedgar]

Re: Venezuela-Eo you approve of USA interference in Venezuelan Politics?

What’s the old adage about “keeping one’s own house in order?”

 

[DaveFagan]

Re: Venezuela-Eo you approve of USA interference in Venezuelan Politics?

If a MOD could, I would like "Eo" in title changed to "Do" I tried using "edit post" but it didn't work. Thanks!

 

[Felis Leo]

Re: Venezuela-Eo you approve of USA interference in Venezuelan Politics?

A simple question?

Do you approve of USA interference in Venezuelan Politics?

Starting with OBAMA, sanctions against Venezuela have caused extreme poverty there.
Venezuela is a Socialist Nation a/k/a Bolivarian Republic.
Maduro is elected in May 2018 with a 60% najority.
Does the USA have any right to cause poverty and chaos in Venezuela?

YES!
NO!
Other and please explain!

I think the sanctions are too glittering a generalization to be an explanation of the poverty in Venezuela.

The sowing of the seeds of destruction did not happen when Obama started sanctioning Venezuela. They started when the socialist government of Venezuela wanted to make Venezuela self-sufficient, nationalized oil resources (and made practically all government revenue dependent on oil) and then later practically all the means of production including farms, and left them in the hands of incompetent and corrupt political loyalists. To say that our sanctions were the cause is purely a post-hoc rationalization. Or rather, if it were the straw that broke the camle's back, it is blaming that single straw rather than all the prior weight that was heaped atop the camel. Venezuela is a failed state and would have been a failed state with or without U.S. interference.

As for how we should behave towards Venezuela, it is difficult to say. I have no interest in engaging in military action against the Venezuelan people or carpet-bombing Caracas. But if it comes to outright civil war, I think it would be incumbent on the United States to support democratic revolutionaries. That is my thought, anyway.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Re: Venezuela-Eo you approve of USA interference in Venezuelan Politics?

We involve out diplomacy in the policies of many nations every day, as do many other nations. My approval or disapproval is irrelevant. Economic actions are acceptable than military options. As are wars of words. Let's not forget extreme poverty for much of the population existed prior to the ascendency of the socialist government. Blaming US sanction alone is disingenuous.

We suffer the same here. Many nations attempt to interfere with our policies, seeking to improve their own interests.

Venezuela is a disaster. Whether resulting from our sanctions against an enemy state, Maduro's despot rule and cult status of its leadership, or other reasons. We have the right to recognize a new government but that does not mean it will succeed with the will of the people. For us oil is part of the equation. If anything, prior to the socialist government taking power, Venezuela flourished for the elite, pointing out the dangers of disparate income. The socialist experiment was noble, but it has failed. Venezuela needs another path. If our diplomacy can hasten an internal march to a new and better path for Venezuela, so be it.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

As someone who aspires to pragmatic realism, I believe a delicate balance in world power currently exists with the United States Military as the most dominate force.

This quote from a more than 3 year old article gives you some idea of the gist of offshore American Military might. With little effort, you or I can find more current sources to emphasize my point.

Despite recently closing hundreds of bases in Iraq and Afghanistan, the United States still maintains nearly 800 military bases in more than 70 countries and territories abroad—from giant “Little Americas” to small radar facilities. Britain, France and Russia, by contrast, have about 30 foreign bases combined.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321

IMO, the United States has Global responsibilities. I would hope our interference includes a determined effort to promote democratic ideals.

 

[DaveFagan]

Re: Venezuela-Eo you approve of USA interference in Venezuelan Politics?

I think the sanctions are too glittering a generalization to be an explanation of the poverty in Venezuela.

The sowing of the seeds of destruction did not happen when Obama started sanctioning Venezuela. They started when the socialist government of Venezuela wanted to make Venezuela self-sufficient, nationalized oil resources (and made practically all government revenue dependent on oil) and then later practically all the means of production including farms, and left them in the hands of incompetent and corrupt political loyalists. To say that our sanctions were the cause is purely a post-hoc rationalization. Or rather, if it were the straw that broke the camle's back, it is blaming that single straw rather than all the prior weight that was heaped atop the camel. Venezuela is a failed state and would have been a failed state with or without U.S. interference.

As for how we should behave towards Venezuela, it is difficult to say. I have no interest in engaging in military action against the Venezuelan people or carpet-bombing Caracas. But if it comes to outright civil war, I think it would be incumbent on the United States to support democratic revolutionaries. That is my thought, anyway.

Partially correct. Venezuela has a one-horse/OIL economy that supports that Nation. We sanctioned that one-horse/OIL and that would be with the intent to cripple that economy and cause poverty and chaos in hopes that a revolution would follow and USA Corporatism woud regain control of that resource. We targetted the citizens of Venezuela for that purpose. High moral ground? Think Chile, Allende, Pinochet. Honduras Zelaya. Haiti. Panams, Pick one. We feed Corporatism/Trickle Up. End of story.
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[Jetboogieman]

A simple question?

Do you approve of USA interference in Venezuelan Politics?

Starting with OBAMA, sanctions against Venezuela have caused extreme poverty there.
Venezuela is a Socialist Nation a/k/a Bolivarian Republic.
Maduro is elected in May 2018 with a 60% najority.
Does the USA have any right to cause poverty and chaos in Venezuela?

YES!
NO!
Other and please explain!

You know for one of those “fight the power man” dudes, you seem pretty supportive of a criminal, inept, uneducated, brutish dictator that lost an election in the legislature, then just created another one, that uses torture, intimidation, starvation, police and the military against his own citizens with reckless abandon.

 

[DaveFagan]

As someone who aspires to pragmatic realism, I believe a delicate balance in world power currently exists with the United States Military as the most dominate force.

This quote from a more than 3 year old article gives you some idea of the gist of offshore American Military might. With little effort, you or I can find more current sources to emphasize my point.



https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321

IMO, the United States has Global responsibilities. I would hope our interference includes a determined effort to promote democratic ideals.

How do you state that? The USA is not a democracy. We support dictators because it's easy for Corporate to do business with a dictator. Nobody outside the USA voted for the USA to interfere in Sovereign Internationalational politics. We are offended to think anyone Israel/ Russia/UK would interfere in US politics. Hypocrites much?\/
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[DaveFagan]

You know for one of those “fight the power man” dudes, you seem pretty supportive of a criminal, inept, uneducated, brutish dictator that lost an election in the legislature, then just created another one, that uses torture, intimidation, starvation, police and the military against his own citizens with reckless abandon.

Maduro elected with 60% of the popular vote of May 2018 with 47% participation, about the same participation as theUSA, to continue Chavez/BolivarianRepublic policies and Chavez was elected 7 times. A better democracy than the USA can claim. Note: Hillary received 3 millin more votes than Trump. What's that about Democracy?
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[Jetboogieman]

Z

Maduro elected with 60% of the popular vote of May 2018 with 47% participation, about the same participation as theUSA, to continue Chavez/BolivarianRepublic policies and Chavez was elected 7 times. A better democracy than the USA can claim. Note: Hillary received 3 millin more votes than Trump. What's that about Democracy?
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And how to you address the fact that when he lost a majority to the opposition in the National Assembly he just created another one to do his bidding, arrested opposition leaders and has used torture and mass arrests to stifle dissent?

What’s that about democracy?

 

[RetiredUSN]

Maduro elected with 60% of the popular vote of May 2018 with 47% participation, about the same participation as theUSA, to continue Chavez/BolivarianRepublic policies and Chavez was elected 7 times. A better democracy than the USA can claim. Note: Hillary received 3 millin more votes than Trump. What's that about Democracy?
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He arrested his opposition?

 

[DaveFagan]

Z

And how to you address the fact that when he lost a majority to the opposition in the National Assembly he just created another one to do his bidding, arrested opposition leaders and has used torture and mass arrests to stifle dissent?

What’s that about democracy?

The Republicans lost the majority in the House, but you don't see any change at the executive level. Just a charade. Venezuelans voted for and elected Chavez 7 times to include his policis to develop a Bolivarian Republic and Maduro is elected, not a dictator, May 2018 with 60% of the popular vote to continue Chavez's policies. I repeat, the USA sanctions, imposted by Obama, have killed the one horse Venezuelan economy to create poverty for its' citizenry and that is/was the plan. We are causing poverty. You, me and Grandma. You sound proud of it.
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[DaveFagan]

Just a note, but a big one.
Everytime you read "DICTATOR" referring to Chavez or Maduro, you are reading false news by the MSM. Both are/were elected by substantial majorities. DICTATOR is the buzzword used by the MSM to slant a narrative/story. Anyone reading is being deceived. That's pretty simple and noteworhy.
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[Fledermaus]

A simple question?

Do you approve of USA interference in Venezuelan Politics?

Starting with OBAMA, sanctions against Venezuela have caused extreme poverty there.
Venezuela is a Socialist Nation a/k/a Bolivarian Republic.
Maduro is elected in May 2018 with a 60% najority.
Does the USA have any right to cause poverty and chaos in Venezuela?

YES!
NO!
Other and please explain!

The US is not the cause of poverty and chaos in Venezuela.

Look to the Venezuelans for that.

 

[Fledermaus]

The Republicans lost the majority in the House, but you don't see any change at the executive level. Just a charade. Venezuelans voted for and elected Chavez 7 times to include his policis to develop a Bolivarian Republic and Maduro is elected, not a dictator, May 2018 with 60% of the popular vote to continue Chavez's policies. I repeat, the USA sanctions, imposted by Obama, have killed the one horse Venezuelan economy to create poverty for its' citizenry and that is/was the plan. We are causing poverty. You, me and Grandma. You sound proud of it.
\/

The post asked this.... "And how to you address the fact that when he lost a majority to the opposition in the National Assembly he just created another one to do his bidding, arrested opposition leaders and has used torture and mass arrests to stifle dissent?"

You appear to like dictators as long as they don't lean towards the US.

 

[DaveFagan]

The US is not the cause of poverty and chaos in Venezuela.

Look to the Venezuelans for that.

The USA sanctioned the only economic life source of the Venezuela economy and CITGO in the USA. You, Me, and Grandma have caused the current poverty, driven with those objective intentions, in Venezuela. USA specializes in destabilization i.e. Libya, Syria, Ukraine, Iraq, etc. It is undeniable. Swallow that turd!
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[TheParser]

NO, I do not think that the United States should interfere that way.

1. I agree that President Maduro is a bad guy.

2. Many leaders of other nations are also bad guys.

3. I agree that he won a badly flawed election.

(a But the United States does not have squeaky-clean elections, either. (More non-citizens vote than is commonly admitted.)

4. It sets a bad precedent to decide whom to recognize.

(a Suppose some nations decided to recognize Nancy Pelosi as the president of the United States? (Of course, many Dems would love that!)

5. Encouraging the military to revolt against him reminds me of when the American government encouraged the Chilean military to overthrow the government because Washington considered their president to be a communist.

6. I agree with people who recommend peaceful dialogue to resolve the problem, but I do not have any suggestions.


7. We should leave it to the Venezuelan people. If enough people get fed up with the horrific economic (and political) situation, they will stage a revolution, as people have done throughout history.


(a Of course, the next leader may not be much better. Or he/she may be even worse! (Look at Iran, for example.)

 

[Fledermaus]

Just a note, but a big one.
Everytime you read "DICTATOR" referring to Chavez or Maduro, you are reading false news by the MSM. Both are/were elected by substantial majorities. DICTATOR is the buzzword used by the MSM to slant a narrative/story. Anyone reading is being deceived. That's pretty simple and noteworhy.
\/

Hitler was elected.

Saddam Hussein was elected by substantial majorities.

As were dozens of others. https://www.conservapedia.com/List_of_dictators

A whole list of dictators many of whom were originally elected.

 

[DaveFagan]

The post asked this.... "And how to you address the fact that when he lost a majority to the opposition in the National Assembly he just created another one to do his bidding, arrested opposition leaders and has used torture and mass arrests to stifle dissent?"

You appear to like dictators as long as they don't lean towards the US.

The House didn't get to vote Trump out after it was overturned.
Maduro is elected by 60% of the popular vote, with a 47% turnout, in May 2018. He's elected.
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[DaveFagan]

Hitler was elected.

Saddam Hussein was elected by substantial majorities.

As were dozens of others. https://www.conservapedia.com/List_of_dictators

A whole list of dictators many of whom were originally elected.

That is an admission that Maduro is elected.

Everytime you refer to Maduro as a "dictator" you reveal a total submission to a false MSM/NeoCon narrative. Some would say "brainwashed," others braindead, but that's just semantics.
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[Fledermaus]

The USA sanctioned the only economic life source of the Venezuela economy and CITGO in the USA. You, Me, and Grandma have caused the current poverty, driven with those objective intentions, in Venezuela. USA specializes in destabilization i.e. Libya, Syria, Ukraine, Iraq, etc. It is undeniable. Swallow that turd!
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Venezuela cannot sell their oil?

Since when?

Citgo is majority owned by the Venezuelan STATE.... Venezuela has tried to sell off the venture for almost a decade now. Even the Russians won't touch it.

And the sanctions started 2014.

Venezuela started it's free fall long before then.

 

[Fledermaus]

The House didn't get to vote Trump out after it was overturned.
Maduro is elected by 60% of the popular vote, with a 47% turnout, in May 2018. He's elected.
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"And how to you address the fact that when he lost a majority to the opposition in the National Assembly he just created another one to do his bidding, arrested opposition leaders and has used torture and mass arrests to stifle dissent?"

Does getting 60% of the vote excuse the above?

 

[Fledermaus]

That is an admission that Maduro is elected.

Everytime you refer to Maduro as a "dictator" you reveal a total submission to a false MSM/NeoCon narrative. Some would say "brainwashed," others braindead, but that's just semantics.
\/

Plenty of dictators were elected.

Elected does not mean one cannot be a dictator.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

How do you state that? The USA is not a democracy. We support dictators because it's easy for Corporate to do business with a dictator. Nobody outside the USA voted for the USA to interfere in Sovereign Internationalational politics. We are offended to think anyone Israel/ Russia/UK would interfere in US politics. Hypocrites much?\/
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You have deflected the topic. I did not make any references to the United States form of government. I don't like that the United States cozies up to the Saudi and other Authoritarian governments. I have no choice but to accept it as current reality.

CIA involvement in the early 1970s in Chile led to a Public Relations disaster... and a major change in CIA tactics.

I don't believe Venezuela has held anything close to reasonably fair elections in recent years.

I certainly recognize my limited power to influence meaningful international policy. What kind of effect do you think you have on international policy?

With the level of your disdain for American foreign policy, why do continue to live in the United States?