Validity of mens' rights movements.

[Zinthaniel]

Why is everything you dont want to answer a strawman? Why does a certain segment of society hate white males, or is it all males in general??

I respond all the time to many posters including you. However since you have been on this forum your have employed fallacies to make your point regularly. You post was a fallacy because it took my argument and distorted into something it was not to create an easier platform for you to refute. It's dishonesty and you do it often.

You also managed to take a thread about men rights in general, and turn it into "Woe to the white man".

 

[NGNM85]

Your bigotry is glaringly obvious. Why do you hate the white male and his attempt to organize?? Do you fully understand how many men are battered by aggressive females in this country? Do you find this ridiculous?

I find your post ridiculous, absolutely. The idea that white males are some kind of oppressed underclass, in America, is absurd.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Why call it patriarchy then? You are, in essence, blaming all men exclusively when you call it patriarchy. Just like when you call it feminism you are making it clear you are not advocating for the rights of men. The whole notion that things that inherently provide an advantage to women are somehow causes for feminists is garbage. Only things that disadvantage women are a cause for feminists.

Because of its structural order, within and without the aristocracy. That doesn't mean Joe Average made the laws influenced by said structural order.

They don't inherently provide advantages to women. They are now because the structure is partially dismantled and isn't functioning the way it was originally built to -- i.e. women are free to initiate divorce and work just about anywhere and sign their own contracts, which allows them to live independently. That wasn't so much the case when these policies were put in place, and they offered no benefit to women at the time.

Weird things happen when you start taking apart the Jenga puzzle of oppressive systems.

Feminism deals with the woman's side of the effects of patriarchy, mostly because they are more obvious and more universal. That does not mean there are no men's issues, and plenty of feminists have tried to involve men more. There are plenty of feminist men, but as of yet, the only response we've gotten to trying to start a dialogue about men's issues is MRA's, who are just mad that date rape is getting harder. Not terribly useful.

Again, which system believes women can't survive without men and raising children is women's work?

 

[Koros]

There are plenty of feminist men, but as of yet, the only response we've gotten to trying to start a dialogue about men's issues is MRA's, who are just mad that date rape is getting harder. Not terribly useful.

*sigh*

I really tried to stay away from your posts in this thread, I truly did. But, when you make such incredibly uneducated, some could even say willfully uneducated, posts like this...well, I have to comments.

Are you really saying that the ONLY thing you get from MRA's is bemoaning over date rape laws?!

 

[Demon of Light]

Again, which system believes women can't survive without men and raising children is women's work?

That you apparently think this is the only reason why women were favored in the traditional system on matters of divorce and child custody is a pretty good indicator of the delusion that identity-based ideologies encourage.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

That you apparently think this is the only reason why women were favored in the traditional system on matters of divorce and child custody is a pretty good indicator of the delusion that identity-based ideologies encourage.

Well, it is, isn't it? What other reasons are there? Just because it's been given a more positive-sounding spin in our modern discourse does not change the original genesis of this concept.

 

[Ocean007]

Again, which system believes women can't survive without men and raising children is women's work?

Great question, Smoke. Interesting that so far, none of the MRA's and those who support them have answered it. I wonder why that is.

 

[roguenuke]

What about forced pregnancies, rape & murder of women just because they are women ? What about female infanticide ? What about other gross violation of women just because of their gender ? False rape accusations ????????? That's like less than 0.1% of the total rape cases. What about women who are too scared or even unable to speak up against violence ? Overall, the things you have mentioned does not even look remotely abusive to me and I am a MAN. I am more worried about the safety and well being of the women I know. Thats' why men's rights group appear to be total bullsh*t to me.
You are against feminism. Are you against women's rights too ? You do not quite sound good to me.

But you are being dishonest or at least showing ignorance here.

First of all, no one has said that women aren't raped, nor even denied that women are raped far more than men and they face being killed just for being a woman more often than men do. However, it is important to put this in perspective as well. You cannot claim "female infanticide" happens everywhere, nor is it unimaginable that people might not have an abortion or give up a male child even in this country just because they wanted a girl child. Sure, female infanticide is more common, in some places, but those places also do not share the same system of government we have.

Second, false rape accusations are reported to be at 2-8%. Also, sexual assaults are not generally classified the same way as rape, the FBI does not track them with rape statistics. And it isn't necessarily just false accusations to the law enforcement that is in question here, since not all accusations are made to law enforcement, which is who tracks whether it is a false report or not. Some agencies may have a policy that requires a rape or sexual assault accusation must be reported to the authorities to be valid, but not all (military on requires that in order for some punishment of perpetrator to happen, it must be reported to military law enforcement/chain of command).

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/reporting-rape-in-2013

Plus, there is an issue when the FBI says that only women can be raped. That is just wrong.

FBI — Forcible Rape

There are definitely some things that are exaggerated in the rape issue, on both sides. For instance, the campus rape claim. Here is what RAINN says:

https://www.rainn.org/public-policy/campus-safety

According to a December 2000 report entitled “The Sexual Victimization of College Women” by the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) at the U.S. Department of Justice, a college with 10,000 students could experience as many as 350 rapes per year.

Yet the stats for what is reported are far fewer:

FBI — Table 9 - North Carolina

NC State, a college with over 34K students in the 2011 school year only had 1 reported forcible rape. Now, I realize that not everyone reports their rapes to authorities and some were only reported to the campus. Along with this, rape isn't the only thing that is part of this technically, but also sexual assault. But even the report the college put out for 2011 says they only had 7 forcible sexual crimes reported to them out of over 34K students.

http://campuspolice.ehps.ncsu.edu/files/4913/5041/0236/NC_State_University_Annual_Security_and_Fire_Safety_Report_2011.pdf

According to RAINN, that number should be closer to 1150 students (at least) who have been sexually assaulted. That is such a huge difference that I cannot possibly believe that even if we say that 8 students reported rapes to some form of authority, that 1142 students didn't report. That statistic is just too much. This is wrong. These types of things are what cause people to doubt the stats put out in colleges or about colleges.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Great question, Smoke. Interesting that so far, none of the MRA's and those who support them have answered it. I wonder why that is.

But what would they ever do if they didn't have their feminazi boogie woman, and instead had to admit the system they're complaining about is the same system feminists fight against? How lame. Where's the fashionable contrarianism in that? :roll:

Still waiting for one of them to get back to me, but I suppose I won't hold my breath. :coffeepap

 

[Graffias]

Second, false rape accusations are reported to be at 2-8%.

Some studies have claimed false rape claims are as high as 50%.

About Half of Rape Allegations are False, Research Shows

False allegations of rape are believed to be more common than many persons realize. These are the findings of four research studies:

A review of 556 rape accusations filed against Air Force personnel found that 27% of women later recanted. Then 25 criteria were developed based on the profile of those women, and then submitted to three independent reviewers to review the remaining cases. If all three reviewers deemed the allegation was false, it was categorized as false. As a result, 60% of all allegations were found to be false.1 Of those women who later recanted, many didn't admit the allegation was false until just before taking a polygraph test. Others admitted it was false only after having failed a polygraph test.2

In a nine-year study of 109 rapes reported to the police in a Midwestern city, Purdue sociologist Eugene J. Kanin reported that in 41% of the cases the complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred.3

In a follow-up study of rape claims filed over a three-year period at two large Midwestern universities, Kanin found that of 64 rape cases, 50% turned out to be false.4 Among the false charges, 53% of the women admitted they filed the false claim as an alibi.5

According to a 1996 Department of Justice report, “in about 25% of the sexual assault cases referred to the FBI, ... the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic DNA testing.6 It should be noted that rape involves a forcible and non-consensual act, and a DNA match alone does not prove that rape occurred. So the 25% figure substantially underestimates the true extent of false allegations.

And according to former Colorado prosecutor Craig Silverman, “For 16 years, I was a kick-ass prosecutor who made most of my reputation vigorously prosecuting rapists. ... I was amazed to see all the false rape allegations that were made to the Denver Police Department. ... A command officer in the Denver Police sex assaults unit recently told me he placed the false rape numbers at approximately 45%.”7

According to the FBI, about 95,000 forcible rapes were reported in 2004.8 Based on the statements and studies cited above, some 47,000 American men are falsely accused of rape each year. These men are disproportionately African-American.9

Some of these men are wrongly convicted, sentenced, and imprisoned. Even if there is no conviction, a false allegation of rape can “emotionally, socially, and economically destroy a person.”10

RADAR: About Half of Rape Allegations are False, Research Shows

 

[CLAX1911]

Why is everything you dont want to answer a strawman? Why does a certain segment of society hate white males, or is it all males in general??

Every time you misrepresent an argument such as, "hatred of all things male" which wasn't zanth's argument, it is a straw man.

Where did zanth make a claim that leads you to believe he is anti male?

 

[Ocean007]

1. But what would they ever do if they didn't have their feminazi boogie woman, and instead had to admit the system they're complaining about is the same system feminists fight against? How lame. Where's the fashionable contrarianism in that? :roll:

2. Still waiting for one of them to get back to me, but I suppose I won't hold my breath. :coffeepap

1. Good point. Without their made-up boogie woman to whine about, the MRA organizations would have no reason for existing.

2. Nah, I wouldn't hold my breath on that either.

 

[roguenuke]

Some studies have claimed false rape claims are as high as 50%.

RADAR: About Half of Rape Allegations are False, Research Shows

I don't believe false reports themselves are really at 50%, but I honestly do believe they are higher than even the 8%. In reality, I believe it is much more complicated than either something is a false rape report or a rape occurred. Take the example of the girl who claimed she was raped at the concert just last week. From the info we have, it appears that this is a case of regretting consensual sex, possibly even during the act, likely because it drew a crowd that was in fact taking pictures and videos. I don't think that such things should be considered rape. There has to be some middle ground there because it absolutely is unrealistic to expect men or even women to know the signals to stop during the middle of intercourse the second that those signals or even a "no" comes out or a "stop" come out. And most of the claims don't involve a public showing so that would mean that we can't possibly know what went on if there were only two people there without a lot more information.

And there are some women who regret the sex but don't really know the difference between regretting consensual sex and rape. Why? Because they are being taught things like "if you are drunk, you can't consent to sex". Okay, well what happens if they are tipsy or just had some to drink but are still coherent but don't know the difference, since drunk is a subjective term? I know I've been drunk before but still able to know what I was doing. I've even been drunk and told a guy to get away from me and stop touching me (he had been rubbing my arm) so I could sleep. Being drunk doesn't always mean that you have lost all control of your reasoning, only that it is impaired.

Or then what about coercion? Is it coercive to say "I believe in having sex prior to marriage"? What about "I'm going to die in two weeks" (I have actually had a guy tell me this)? Legally, coercive involves something more in almost all cases, but when it comes to rape, coercive can be merely making the person feel emotional guilt, depending on the organization defining rape, something that would not be acceptable as a defense if the person was an accomplice to a crime.

 

[Britman]

Plus, there is an issue when the FBI says that only women can be raped. That is just wrong.

I NEVER said that ONLY women can be raped. Men can ALSO get raped and otherwise sexually molested, but by other MEN. You CANNOT blame women for that. That's why rapists need to be sentenced to death penalty.Because, they are capable of hurting anybody and are more prone to murder someone, including kids.

AND, BTW, Graffias is a stupid misogynist.

 

[roguenuke]

I NEVER said that ONLY women can be raped. Men can ALSO get raped and otherwise sexually molested, but by other MEN. You CANNOT blame women for that. That's why rapists need to be sentenced to death penalty.Because, they are capable of hurting anybody and are more prone to murder someone, including kids.

AND, BTW, Graffias is a stupid misogynist.

Men can be raped by women as well. It is wrong to not recognize this fact.

Man tells his quite rare story of being raped by a woman

Against his will: The reality of male rape - CNN.com

This belief that men can't be raped by women is wrong. And it does happen. More often than many want to admit.

And no, rapists should not be sentenced to death, at least not most. (I would agree with serial rapists getting death penalty though, or particularly vile rapes where it is absolutely proven it was rape, no chance of consent.) Not all rape is the same, whether some want to believe this or not.

 

[Britman]

Men can be raped by women as well.

OOoooh perhaps my wildest sexual fantasy.

You have been watching too much "Horrible Bosses". Very funny and nice movie though. :mrgreen:

 

[roguenuke]

OOoooh perhaps my wildest sexual fantasy.

You have been watching too much "Horrible Bosses". Very funny and nice movie though. :mrgreen:

Actually no, the only movie that I have seen with a woman raping a man is "40 Days and 40 Nights", which despite liking that movie, I find it absolutely wrong that so few people not only did not recognize the rape scene but there also was very little said even about the fact that the protagonist actually apologized for being raped to the woman he actually loved. There was a very similar incident in DC comics, one of the Nightwing comics, and the writer was quoted as saying "I never used the word 'rape,' I just said it was nonconsensual."

The 6 Creepiest Sexual Encounters in Comic Book History | Cracked.com

I also provided the article showing women raping men. Here's another one.

Woman Charged With Raping Man, Bond Set At $75K « CBS Chicago

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

OOoooh perhaps my wildest sexual fantasy.

You have been watching too much "Horrible Bosses". Very funny and nice movie though. :mrgreen:

Yeah, see, this is why men are more likely than women to kill themselves after a sexual assault, especially by a woman.

Other men, and even women, just write it off as though no real man would do anything but enjoy his rape, especially if it's by a woman. They go no support from society at all. They just get mocked.

Men don't enjoy rape. Men suffer after rape just like women do. Often more so, because machismo culture is full of insinuations that men who get assaulted as sissies.

 

[CLAX1911]

Yeah, see, this is why men are more likely than women to kill themselves after a sexual assault, especially by a woman.

Other men, and even women, just write it off as though no real man would do anything but enjoy his rape, especially if it's by a woman. They go no support from society at all. They just get mocked.

Men don't enjoy rape. Men suffer after rape just like women do. Often more so, because machismo culture is full of insinuations that men who get assaulted as sissies.

It's common that men actually believe they have fewer emotions than women. Men are shamed into not showing emotion.

It's really rather bizarre to me though I am a product of my culture and still often have anxiety about expressing emotion.

I don't really get this cultural stereotype it's really quite strange and I don't believe it serves any purpose.

I was actually sexually harassed by a woman I did not enjoy it (i go both ways) I am actually a little more often than I'd care to admit.

 

[roguenuke]

Yeah, see, this is why men are more likely than women to kill themselves after a sexual assault, especially by a woman.

Other men, and even women, just write it off as though no real man would do anything but enjoy his rape, especially if it's by a woman. They go no support from society at all. They just get mocked.

Men don't enjoy rape. Men suffer after rape just like women do. Often more so, because machismo culture is full of insinuations that men who get assaulted as sissies.

Not to mention, just like with men who face domestic abuse, there are so few that help centers don't know how to help. I've heard of an abused husband who was put in the group with the abusing husbands because the military couldn't put him with the abused women (understandably) but he also didn't have any other male victims.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Not to mention, just like with men who face domestic abuse, there are so few that help centers don't know how to help. I've heard of an abused husband who was put in the group with the abusing husbands because the military couldn't put him with the abused women (understandably) but he also didn't have any other male victims.

:shock:

Presumably, the reason he wasn't put with the women was because some may be touchy about having a man present.

So they thought a better solution was to put him in a room full of abusers. As though he wouldn't be pretty touchy about that.

Does not compute. I simply cannot parse that. How could they possibly think that's ok?

 

[Soupnazi630]

Hey all,

Does these mens' rights activists(MRAs) have anything valid to scream and whine about ? Do they even have any real issues ? It looks like some people are either very bored or they just want to lord over the other gender, no matter what. In reality, they are ones whining and screaming filled with crocodile tears. Its really crazy.

-B.

Do feminists have anything valid to scream and whine about?

That is all they do.

Do gay/lesbian/bi/transgender/transexual activists have anything valid to whine about?

That's all they do.

Do activists for civil rights and racial equality have anything valid to whine about?

That's all they do.

 

[Soupnazi630]

A couple, yes. I could see the purpose of a men's group intended for gender dialogue with feminism and society, at this juncture in the movement. Social change is always full of unpredictable outcomes, and there have been a couple affecting men.

But unfortunately, that's not what MRA's are, and that's not what they focus on. They're just woman-hating groups, basically, that spend more time doing stuff like condoning domestic abuse than addressing real issues.

WHich ones have condoned domestic abuse?

Got a link?

 

[Soupnazi630]

There's legitimate issues of child custody and divorce laws, but those aren't rooted in some kind of discrimination against men. They're rooted in discrimination against women. They're proof that a patriarchal system and rigid gender roles hurt everyone. Most of what MRA's complain about is how the pretty girls they like don't want to have sex with them.

Except that patriarchy is just theory devoid of any supporting evidence.

FUnny how those divorce and child custody laws hurt men more than women and yet it is patriarchy.

BTW which sites have you seen where all they do is whine about pretty girls not having sex with the members.

 

[Bodi]

Hey all,

Does these mens' rights activists(MRAs) have anything valid to scream and whine about ? Do they even have any real issues ? It looks like some people are either very bored or they just want to lord over the other gender, no matter what. In reality, they are ones whining and screaming filled with crocodile tears. Its really crazy.

-B.

I don't know what other issue men have than Father's Rights (That are so often denied in Family Court). If that is the case then the validity of this movement is very important.