US Military Eases Rules to Allow Turbans & Beards

[beerftw]

I was always under the impression that the primary justification for the current grooming standard had more to do with the proper wear of gas masks than anything else. Smooth skin creates a better seal.

Well, when was the last time we fought anyone who actually used chemical weapons?

Hell! If we really think someone is liable to do so, how hard is it to just send out a damn memo telling everyone to shave?

Frankly, it'd probably be better for our soldiers to wear beards given the cultural environments we're fighting in these days anyway. In Afghanistan, for example, beardless men are basically regarded as being effeminate and immature at best, and submissively homosexual at worst.

That's a large part of the reason why Spec Ops ignore the grooming standard as is.

incorrect,they are viewed as babies,meaning they havent become a man until they have a beard or facial hair.i used to have my afghanistache-or my combat mustache,because if i didnt they would call me baby,and make me talk to the wife because he wont talk to babies.his wife wouldnt say anything because she is not allowed to talk to any male not directly related or in the marketplace buying groceries.if you get lucky one of the sons will talk with you,but the head of the household wont.

the army then and now allows a mustache to be grown.

 

[Risky Thicket]

it will be an issue.i can see letting it slide for chaplains,but for the forces itself,lack of uniformity would be a concern,but not a deal breaker.

the dealbreaker is that a beard interferes with gas masks,rendering them useless.it is not just the military that does this.for example alot of oil field workers cant grow a beard either because if a gas leak occurrs,they need to wear a mask and have it effective.


a turban itself though would not interfere with the mission,as it does not interfere with safety gear or nbc gear.it would just suffer from lack of uniformity.

I can tell you how bad it used to be, don't know about now. As a USAF Security Police I had to qualify expert with a S&W M-15 Combat Masterpiece - right handed. Why? Because if you are left handed and you'll carry left handed and thus be out of uniform! Logic? Nada.

I am left handed as the day is long, but if I have any talent it is an innate to zero a target. I was born with it. Can't take credit. Somehow I qualified first time ever shooting an M-15, with special security police load. Lady luck must have been involved.

Hopefully, things have changed since then. However, using the same dumbass logic turbans and beards would be out of uniform.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

I don't think the protective mask issue is a big deal since our contractors and Special Forces wear beards. My bigger concern is how they will address the wear of the kevlar helmet. As a matter of principle I have no problem with this. I think the soldier in the OP pic looks very professional. My only concern is safety. We almost never use the protective mask but the helmet is important in a combat zone.

 

[LeoVlaming]

A completely ridiculous idea.

 

[Thrilla]

I don't see the Marine Corps allowing deviations in uniform standards like this....individualism is frowned upon in the Corps.

 

[LeoVlaming]

The people who have a problem with it are likely to be the ones who think anyone who wears a turban is a Muslim, and, therefore, a terrorist.

In other words, ignorant people.

There is a word for people who consider anybody who disagrees with them to be ignorant. They are called bigots.

 

[SayMyName]

Well, I think that Scottish Americans should sport Glengarrys and tartan: it's part of our culture. The heads of families wear turbans as seen on the OP picture; fair is fair. Of course now Christian evangelists and Muslims are going have their say as well...

Camo kilts would be cool. Mix that with an ACU turban and that would rock.

 

[Jerry]

FM 670-1, DA Pam 670–1, and AR 600–20 covers Army wear and appearance of the uniform. Grooming standards were established to first promote good hygiene, to maintain a positive image second, and accommodate a gas mask third.

Alternative headgear such as an ACU hajib or turban are alterations to the Duty Uniform and/or Dress Uniform, not the Combat Uniform. Kilts are not a religious item and interfere with the Combat Uniform anyway, so forget it. Certain weapons fall under the religious waiver already such as daggers and tomahawks, which you normally cannot wear with the Duty or Dress Uniforms.

Any such wavered grooming may not interfere with the Combat Uniform. Soldiers with a waiver to conduct personal grooming in a way which would interfere with the gas mask may not be deployed to combat zones which have a chemical threat, of which Afghanistan is not one but Baltimore is. Alternatively, a waiver can be easily revoked so as to make the Soldier deployable to a combat zone with a chemical threat.

 

[Jerry]

I don't think the protective mask issue is a big deal since our contractors and Special Forces wear beards. My bigger concern is how they will address the wear of the kevlar helmet. As a matter of principle I have no problem with this. I think the soldier in the OP pic looks very professional. My only concern is safety. We almost never use the protective mask but the helmet is important in a combat zone.

He's also a Chaplin and therefore already barred by the Geneva Conventions from engage in offensive warfare anyway.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

He's also a Chaplin and therefore already barred by the Geneva Conventions from engage in offensive warfare anyway.

That is certainly true, but chaplains still carry pro masks and wear kevlars. Though I can see them making an exception for chaplains.

 

[CRUE CAB]

This news will be most difficult to accept for certain groups of Americans. I'd venture to say that most people who have served in the military won't have a problem with it. A few will, but then they likely have problems with any kind of change.

I support the new policy. It actually makes sense. Full story here.

What say you?



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I have not been in the military and I find it absolutely an affront to the US military.

 

[CRUE CAB]

There is a word for people who consider anybody who disagrees with them to be ignorant. They are called bigots.

Ah, the bigot card. LOL Hell, lets just do away with the stars and stripes and replace it with a moon palm tree and rainbows.

 

[Jerry]

I have not been in the military and I find it absolutely an affront to the US military.

I'm in the military and this is not even an issue.

 

[CRUE CAB]

I'm in the military and this is not even an issue.

Why, because the military has finally broken and bowed to "individuality" wrapped up in political correctness. With alittle bit of "sensitivity" thrown in for good measure.

 

[Jerry]

Why, because the military has finally broken and bowed to "individuality" wrapped up in political correctness. With alittle bit of "sensitivity" thrown in for good measure.

No doubt there's a healthy measure of political correctness, but the military is also getting ready to swell the ranks again so I suspect there's a recruiting motivation also; make the service more appealing to more people.

 

[jet57]

Camo kilts would be cool. Mix that with an ACU turban and that would rock.

Uh, no, it would be tartan - not camo kilts...

 

[CRUE CAB]

No doubt there's a healthy measure of political correctness, but the military is also getting ready to swell the ranks again so I suspect there's a recruiting motivation also; make the service more appealing to more people.

Yea, that's how they ended up with Mexican gang members. But wanted to make rules about white guys and tattoos.
I see this, and I just lose more respect for our current military mindset.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

This news will be most difficult to accept for certain groups of Americans. I'd venture to say that most people who have served in the military won't have a problem with it. A few will, but then they likely have problems with any kind of change.

I support the new policy. It actually makes sense. Full story here.

What say you?



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This retired sailor says "Good!" Yeah, there's a lot out there who will say, "We can't allow this because our OBA (Oxygen Breathing Appratus - used to prevent smoke inhalation in fires) masks won't have a good fit because of the beards", and they'll have conniption fits...but I doubt it's really that serious of an issue.

 

[beerftw]

Why, because the military has finally broken and bowed to "individuality" wrapped up in political correctness. With alittle bit of "sensitivity" thrown in for good measure.

i dont think the military bowed to individuality.the military has for a long time been pro religion,and accomodating to all religions that meet criteria for service.it has been evident by the fact the military ensures they have chaplains to hold religious services for all the major religions even in the most hostile of environments.


the only issue would be whether or not the accomodations affect combat,after all that is a soldiers primary job,regardless of mos,they joined trained and trained some more for it.ok maybe the ultra ocd sergeant major might throw a fit,but i already had one of those.he banned facemasks from being used even during sandstorms,and caused permanent lung damage to some soldiers simply to be dress right dress.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Well, when was the last time we fought anyone who actually used chemical weapons?

1991. And if you want to be technical, 2015.

That is because we are currently fighting ISIS, and they have been known to use Chlorine Gas in attacks, and have attempted to gain even more powerful weapons.

 

[PirateMk1]

This news will be most difficult to accept for certain groups of Americans. I'd venture to say that most people who have served in the military won't have a problem with it. A few will, but then they likely have problems with any kind of change.

I support the new policy. It actually makes sense. Full story here.

What say you?



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I am going to make a point here to say that the US Military does not in any way HAVE to accommodate Indian or other Far eastern religions, or most others for that matter, in order for those of those religious persuasions that wish to join and serve. The reason being that none that I am aware including the Sikh religion require these items if you are in military service or there are severe extenuating circumstances such as working in an environment where such accoutrements which would be mandatory can temporarily set aside until such duties are concluded. I know this from personal experience in dealing with a multitude of nationalities and even more religious persuasions in my crews while I was overseas in the sandbox. In particular I relate an incident which coincidently involved those of the Sikh persuasion. My convoys regularly ran routes in active sectors of Iraq where attack could and did occur with frequency. Therefor I maintained a policy of wearing flack jackets, eyepro and helmets. It took me a lot of badgering, threatening and theft to accumulate enough protective equipment for my crews, and I was going to be damned it they weren't going to use it A. B, I wanted them to have the equipment on to significantly up their chances for survival in case they were hit hard. C and most important and best reason was if the hit was minor to medium, but shattered windscreens or got through the gaps in the curtain armor then hopefully with the extra protection it was help enough that they could maintain some control of their vehicle to mitigate the potential of an accident from a disabled driver and save their own lives and most importantly enable the part of the convoy BEHIND them to be able to pass the strike zone safely. Basically I was stacking the deck in favor of my convoy as much as possible against strikes. Anyhow as I said I had many nationalities and religious persuasions in my crews. Early on after I had scrounged up the protective equipment I had some new drivers attached to my crew, a couple of them were younger Sikhs just in from India. So I and my Indian translator started going over what they needed to do what they needed to have on while driving ect. Well the young studs had a problem with wearing the helmets. I got the biggest I could because they would fit most everyone I would be likely to get. Well the helmets didn't fit over their turbans, and they weren't going to wear them on their turbans anyhow. It was some religious thing, not sure what as I didn't get into it with them. My Indian translator did. And boy howdy did he. We called him Santa Claus well cause that's what the old boy looked like and had a similar personality very funny and jolly and smiling all the time. I enjoyed working with him. Real nice guy. He didn't speak too much English and I didn't speak much Indian but we had a working pidgin going that got our points across. Anyhow he laid into those young studs like they had done violated one of his daughters honor. I don't know exactly what he said, but the result was complete cooperation including wearing the helmets without the turban. That was the most memorable little thing I had with dealing with religion except for the one were I had my Egyptian and Muslim friend and crew member stop to pray one time in a hot zone on his first run. (and the last, he got read the riot act). Anyhow I have a pretty broad exposure to religions and conditions that do not permit doing everything prescribed. As I said before almost all make allowances for the fact that the world wont cooperate at times. It might be nice to accommodate in peacetime, but during wartime or emergencies it is not necessary.

PS My friend Santa Claus unfortunately died in a attack on his convoy about a year after I left theater. Its sad that such a fine fellow had to end his time in this mortal world in such fashion. I miss our tea times and his company.

 

[PirateMk1]

1991. And if you want to be technical, 2015.

That is because we are currently fighting ISIS, and they have been known to use Chlorine Gas in attacks, and have attempted to gain even more powerful weapons.

The Iraqi insurgents tried using them in late 2003 and early 2004 on the convoys and elsewhere, I believe it was mustard gas they had dug up from some bunker they had liberated some artillery shells from. Anyhow I can attest from first hand experience it doesn't work well or at all on moving targets and that they did try to use gas.

 

[Risky Thicket]

I am going to make a point here to say that the US Military does not in any way HAVE to accommodate Indian or other Far eastern religions, or most others for that matter, in order for those of those religious persuasions that wish to join and serve. The reason being that none that I am aware including the Sikh religion require these items if you are in military service or there are severe extenuating circumstances such as working in an environment where such accoutrements which would be mandatory can temporarily set aside until such duties are concluded. I know this from personal experience in dealing with a multitude of nationalities and even more religious persuasions in my crews while I was overseas in the sandbox. In particular I relate an incident which coincidently involved those of the Sikh persuasion. My convoys regularly ran routes in active sectors of Iraq where attack could and did occur with frequency. Therefor I maintained a policy of wearing flack jackets, eyepro and helmets. It took me a lot of badgering, threatening and theft to accumulate enough protective equipment for my crews, and I was going to be damned it they weren't going to use it A. B, I wanted them to have the equipment on to significantly up their chances for survival in case they were hit hard. C and most important and best reason was if the hit was minor to medium, but shattered windscreens or got through the gaps in the curtain armor then hopefully with the extra protection it was help enough that they could maintain some control of their vehicle to mitigate the potential of an accident from a disabled driver and save their own lives and most importantly enable the part of the convoy BEHIND them to be able to pass the strike zone safely. Basically I was stacking the deck in favor of my convoy as much as possible against strikes. Anyhow as I said I had many nationalities and religious persuasions in my crews. Early on after I had scrounged up the protective equipment I had some new drivers attached to my crew, a couple of them were younger Sikhs just in from India. So I and my Indian translator started going over what they needed to do what they needed to have on while driving ect. Well the young studs had a problem with wearing the helmets. I got the biggest I could because they would fit most everyone I would be likely to get. Well the helmets didn't fit over their turbans, and they weren't going to wear them on their turbans anyhow. It was some religious thing, not sure what as I didn't get into it with them. My Indian translator did. And boy howdy did he. We called him Santa Claus well cause that's what the old boy looked like and had a similar personality very funny and jolly and smiling all the time. I enjoyed working with him. Real nice guy. He didn't speak too much English and I didn't speak much Indian but we had a working pidgin going that got our points across. Anyhow he laid into those young studs like they had done violated one of his daughters honor. I don't know exactly what he said, but the result was complete cooperation including wearing the helmets without the turban. That was the most memorable little thing I had with dealing with religion except for the one were I had my Egyptian and Muslim friend and crew member stop to pray one time in a hot zone on his first run. (and the last, he got read the riot act). Anyhow I have a pretty broad exposure to religions and conditions that do not permit doing everything prescribed. As I said before almost all make allowances for the fact that the world wont cooperate at times. It might be nice to accommodate in peacetime, but during wartime or emergencies it is not necessary.

PS My friend Santa Claus unfortunately died in a attack on his convoy about a year after I left theater. Its sad that such a fine fellow had to end his time in this mortal world in such fashion. I miss our tea times and his company.

That's an excellent explanation and it makes great sense to me. I'm sorry about the loss of Santa Claus. No doubt many who served with him feel the loss as well.

I do not support religious accommodations when butts are on the line. As you pointed out everyone would be effected by giving in to the religious accommodations of a few. Stateside or outside of a war zone no problem.

 

[Logicman]

Once sent down to Saigon to MACV I had a few days to burn some time. In some bar, somewhere, I ran into navy guys with beards. WTF? Turns out they were submarine sailors and said that it was permitted. That was in the old days. Now, probably now.

Did you ever get over to Tu Do Street and splurge for a couple of Saigon Teas? LOL. That city was a real sewer. It smelled like one too.

But they did have a good Navy mess hall that I had a pass to when I went through there. The Navy had decent chow. Beat the heck out of our SOS Army chow.

 

[Risky Thicket]

Did you ever get over to Tu Do Street and splurge for a couple of Saigon Teas? LOL. That city was a real sewer. It smelled like one too.

But they did have a good Navy mess hall that I had a pass to when I went through there. The Navy had decent chow. Beat the heck out of our SOS Army chow.

I did get to Tu Do. I also misspent a night in Cholon , not knowing I was in an off limits area. Had the MPs not seen my QC patch (I was USAF Security Police) I probably would have gotten into a bit of trouble over that. I did buy a couple of Saigon teas, but not for myself. LOL!

Saigon was an experience. I enjoyed it but I was only there for 3 days on a courier errand to MACV HQ that took all of 15 minutes. I'd love to go back to Saigon and almost did a couple of years ago. Would you like to go back?

Not in Saigon but I did have the chance to eat at a Navy mess. I was stunned. Great food and lots of it. Later back in the States I had several opportunities to eat at a Navy mess. I never passed up the chance. The food was always excellent and plentiful.