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US men fight child support laws.

Synch

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4789090.stm


US men fight child support laws



Fathers are legally obliged to pay for bringing up their children

Men's rights activists in the US are to argue in court that fathers do not have an obligation to pay money towards raising a child they did not want.

The National Center for Men is fighting the case on a behalf of a man who says his ex-girlfriend had his child after telling him she could not get pregnant.

Activists say men should have the same rights as women in dealing with the consequences of unintended pregnancy.
How dare these men are trying to fight for their own right so they won't be forced to give up their bodily resources to support a child which they might not want or consent to concieve in the first place.

How dare these neocon white supremacists want to free men from paying their obligated child support for their child regardless of intentions, who gives that the woman gave birth to leech money off the father, he deserves it, men shouldn't recieve the same rights granted to woman because we enslaved them for thousands of years..

They should be able to kill fetuses, but relieve themselves of having to give up bodily resources, but we men can't have that right because we're men, and our super affirmative action society forbids that.

Where's your feminine spirit, support woman.


:mrgreen:
...............................


Fu/ck that sh1t, I'm gonna be serious. I support abortion rights, although it may be for the wrong reasons.. but still, the great hypocritical policies in our country, affirmative action, national security, and our child support policy, which coerces the man into giving up his bodily resources for a child he does not want or did not consent to have.
 
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Deegan

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This is an interesting case, and I happen to agree with the man on legal grounds, just not moral ones. I think he knew what could happen when he had unprotected sex, but if he was lied to, he may have a case. Still, to abandon your child, that seems a little cold, but he should have the choice, as we don't legislate morals in this country.
 

aps

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I fully support the challenge. If she wants the baby and he does not, she can jolly well pay to bring him up.
 

Korimyr the Rat

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Deegan said:
Still, to abandon your child, that seems a little cold, but he should have the choice, as we don't legislate morals in this country.
Ain't his kid, unless and until he steps up and declares himself the kid's father.

That goes for parental rights as well as parental responsibilities-- or, at least, it should.

The cold part of it is walking away from a woman that he's established a relationship with, when she's obviously in a bad situation. But you're right, in that we cannot enforce that obligation; that's what the institution of marriage is for. If he were married to her, the child would automatically be his-- regardless of biological paternity.
 

talloulou

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Synch said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4789090.stm

but still, the great hypocritical policies in our country, affirmative action, national security, and our child support policy, which coerces the man into giving up his bodily resources for a child he does not want or did not consent to have.
I agree the laws are very hypocritical and men have no reproductive rights at all. Men do not get to choose parenthood the same way women do. I have had women accuse me of being antifeminist for pointing many of these problems out, not just in regards to abortion, but in regards to the many problems with child support and a system thay overly favors women.

In regards to abortion though most argue that the right to abort is not a reproductive right and its not about parenting or not parenting its about having control over your own body. So anotherwards they aren't getting the "right" to choose or not choose parenthood they are getting the right to choose what can and can not be done with their own body. This makes it harder to argue that abortion is unfair because of the reproductive right when roe vs wade doesn't discuss any reproductive right. That doesn't mean I don't still make the argument though:rofl
 

talloulou

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aps said:
I fully support the challenge. If she wants the baby and he does not, she can jolly well pay to bring him up.
However "not paying" still doesn't make it fair. That leaves the man with the choice of being a dead beat dad or not. He still has a child out in the world whether the law or the legal system allows him to opt out of payment. Women get to decide that their creation will cease to exist. Not only do they not have to pay they don't have to walk around knowing there is a child in the world that they have abandoned.
 

talloulou

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Korimyr the Rat said:
Ain't his kid, unless and until he steps up and declares himself the kid's father.
Well not legally. Legally a women can haul his butt into court and demand that he pay child support and in most states his employment check will be docked if he was the biological father whether he declares himself a dad or not.

Furthermore the laws don't do a well enough job at ensuring the child support really goes to the child. Many men complain that they pay money and it never filters down to the kid. So the laws need work in that area as well.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Synch
Moderator's Warning:

Some folks have trouble understanding this even though I've tried highlighting each of the items. So, in that light, please don't take offense at how simply I'm going top break this down. It's not directed at you in particular.

In order to post someone else's material (copyrighted material in particular) there are a two (2) guidelines that must be followed. That's all, just two.

#1 All material posted from copyrighted material MUST contain a link to the original work. All means all and must means must. All such material must contain a link to the original source.
Synch, your piece did have a link to the original source. Good job.

And in ADDITON to this

#2 Please do not post entire articles. I'm not sure how to clarify this. But, if needed, I will try.
Synch, you posted the entire article. Please do not do this.

What you should have done:
Proper format is to paraphrase the contents of an article and/or post relevant excerpts and then link to the rest.

So remember, two guidelines which both must be followed at the same time.

These guidelines, as well as others can be found here Forum Rules

Thanks, your humble mod,
SWM
 

Korimyr the Rat

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talloulou said:
Legally a women can haul his butt into court and demand that he pay child support...
Yes. This is what people are complaining about-- that the laws do not provide equal protection for men in this situation.

There have been some ugly cases concerning this: a man who discovered a woman imseminating herself with the contents of a discarded condom, a man legally ordered to pay child support for children that his wife conceived extramaritally, and so forth.

The laws concerning parenthood are a ghastly, inconsistent mess and need to be sorted out-- but that will be impossible as long as we are still fighting over abortion and adoption.

tallloulou said:
Furthermore the laws don't do a well enough job at ensuring the child support really goes to the child. Many men complain that they pay money and it never filters down to the kid. So the laws need work in that area as well.
Absolutely agreed. I've seen women abusing child support, whether it's court-ordered or not. And that seems to be part of the problem; most people involved in this issue cannot seem to tell the difference between obligations to the mother and obligations to the child.
 

Synch

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Ah, Simon I'm sorry...

in this other forum, I was accused of being biased when I only quoted some of the article, not showing the whole thing, but thanks for clarifying the rules here.
 

Synch

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Deegan said:
This is an interesting case, and I happen to agree with the man on legal grounds, just not moral ones. I think he knew what could happen when he had unprotected sex, but if he was lied to, he may have a case. Still, to abandon your child, that seems a little cold, but he should have the choice, as we don't legislate morals in this country.
how does he not have the moral ground? I thought you supported abortion rights, just like I do.

The man should not be discriminated, and if the woman can have the easy way out, so should we.

He definitely has the case both morally and legally, he was lied to, these ridiculous child support laws, which makes us look hypocritical if you look at our abortion laws.

If you want to keep the child supports, that even if the father does not consent to the child, he still has to pay child support, it would only be logically correct to outlaw all abortions.
 

NYStateofMind

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It isn't only fathers who pay child support, it's non-custodial parents who pay child support. If a father has custody, the mother pays child support.

If fathers are allowed to opt out during a woman's pregnancy, think about what that would do to the abortion rate.
 
F

FallingPianos

the whole system needs to be overhauled. I'm not sure about the details, but here is how I see things:

1. the child has the right to be supported by both of its parents.

the exception to this is when the parents give up the child for adoption. but I think in order for that to be consistent, single people should not be allowed to adopt.

2. I think abortion rights are pretty irrelevant because of adoption. but im not sure about this. if the paternity of the child is known, does the father have any say in giving up the child for adoption, if the couple is not married? thats what it depends on, mainly.
 

talloulou

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NYStateofMind said:
It isn't only fathers who pay child support, it's non-custodial parents who pay child support. If a father has custody, the mother pays child support.
Yes but 9 times out of 10 custody is awarded to the mother. That's a problem too.

If fathers are allowed to opt out during a woman's pregnancy, think about what that would do to the abortion rate.
That sounds like some weird threat.....if you let men opt out then women will abort in droves!!! Women abort in droves now so I don't see the difference. And is abortion even an issue of money? Aren't poor people less likely to abort then the wealthy and middleclass? And the current laws allow women to abort even if a man is standing there begging her not to and throwing tons of money at her.

You think it would be crazy if we let men opt out of parenthood? You think it would be crazy if we allowed them to pretend their creation ceased to exist? You think it would be crazy if men had no consequences related to pregnancy if they decided they didn't want or weren't ready for the consequences? You think it would be crazy for a man to be able to demand abortion even when the pregnant women wants to keep the baby? You think men shouldn't be given the right to decide if a baby will be born or not?

I agree it would be crazy just as crazy as it is now allowing women to make all those very same decisions.

How about these:

You think it would be fair to force women into parenthood when they weren't ready and didn't want to be a parent?

You think it would be unfair to demand that women stand up and take responsibility for their creation?

You think it would be unfair to tie a women down to the so called "slavery" of parenting when that doesn't fit into her lifestyle?

You think it would be unfair to force women to have babies they may not financially be able to afford?

Big deal! All that and more happens to men.

Futhermore men suffer injustices that women generally don't. They can be trapped into fatherhood by deceitful women. They can be lied to and tricked into fatherhood even when they aren't the biological father. They can find out all about this at some point in the future and the women is charged with no crime.

They can be going about their business completely unaware that they even have a child 'cause some women failed to mention it. The child can show up at their door 15 years later saying, "hi, nice to meet you. I'm your kid." And that's not a crime either.

There are not even laws that currently protect a mans right to know when a woman has given birth to his offspring!!! How crazy is that?
 
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talloulou said:
Yes but 9 times out of 10 custody is awarded to the mother. That's a problem too.
Agreed

That sounds like some weird threat.....if you let men opt out then women will abort in droves!!! Women abort in droves now so I don't see the difference. And is abortion even an issue of money? Aren't poor people less likely to abort then the wealthy and middleclass? And the current laws allow women to abort even if a man is standing there begging her not to and throwing tons of money at her.
Not if you require the mans decision before abortion can happen.

Very old thread here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=683

What is interesting is back then, it was considered very bad idea. Now, it could be the thing to overturn Roe v Wade.
 

NYStateofMind

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I'm simply pointing out that it child support laws are blind to the sex of the custodial parent....whoever isn't raising the child is paying support. The court that deals with child support has nothing to do with assigning custody. Many times there is no formal agreement between the parents about custody at all...the mother has custody because the father OPTED OUT in many cases. That's why we have the laws....because of the deadbeat parents who walk away from their kids. Yes, most, not all, but most of them are fathers! To suggest that they WANT custody of their kids when they walked away and had to be dragged into court and forced to support their kids is disingenuous.

The second part of my post is no "threat" of any kind. It's simply reality.....more women will choose to abort if they know they will not get support from the father to raise the child. There will also be more children growing up in poverty. Why do you think we have the child support laws to begin with?
 

talloulou

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NYStateofMind said:
I'm simply pointing out that it child support laws are blind to the sex of the custodial parent....whoever isn't raising the child is paying support. The court that deals with child support has nothing to do with assigning custody. Many times there is no formal agreement between the parents about custody at all...the mother has custody because the father OPTED OUT in many cases. That's why we have the laws....because of the deadbeat parents who walk away from their kids. Yes, most, not all, but most of them are fathers! To suggest that they WANT custody of their kids when they walked away and had to be dragged into court and forced to support their kids is disingenuous.
To complain about dead beat dads who walk away and pretend their kid doesn't exist is hypocritical if you also support abortion.

The second part of my post is no "threat" of any kind. It's simply reality.....more women will choose to abort if they know they will not get support from the father to raise the child. There will also be more children growing up in poverty. Why do you think we have the child support laws to begin with?
Maybe. But maybe less women will "accidentally" get pregnant in the first place. And maybe more women will be careful about who they sleep with and what protection they take to prevent pregnancy. Maybe women will consider the ramifications of whether or not they are ready to be a parent a little more seriously when they no longer hold ALL the cards.
 
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FallingPianos

talloulou said:
To complain about dead beat dads who walk away and pretend their kid doesn't exist is hypocritical if you also support abortion.
I think abortion really is a seperate debate. most people that support abortion, do not support infanticide, and child support only applies after the child is born.
 

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star2589 said:
I think abortion really is a seperate debate. most people that support abortion, do not support infanticide, and child support only applies after the child is born.
Well in my mind they are linked. Why should a women get to decide their creation will cease to exist? If a man just gets to opt out of paying child support he still must deal with the fact that his offspring is out there in the world and he has abandoned his offspring! This abandoned offspring could very well show up at his door and start throwing accusations in his face. Women face no such threat when they opt out. When a women "opts out" the offspring is gone, killed, ceases to exist.
 
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FallingPianos

talloulou said:
Well in my mind they are linked. Why should a women get to decide their creation will cease to exist? If a man just gets to opt out of paying child support he still must deal with the fact that his offspring is out there in the world and he has abandoned his offspring! This abandoned offspring could very well show up at his door and start throwing accusations in his face. Women face no such threat when they opt out. When a women "opts out" the offspring is gone, killed, ceases to exist.
I didnt say it was "fair", I just dont see any fair alternative, if abortion is kept legal.

neither the mother or the father can "opt out" after the child is born.

before the child is born, the mother is the only one capible of making any sort of decisions on its behalf. (or against its behalf). its an inherently unfair situation.
 

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Complain? I'm not complaining. I'm just telling you like it is.

NOWHERE did I argue one side or the other, I just pointed out a few things to think about. :roll:

You're reading emotion into my post that isn't there.
 

talloulou

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NYStateofMind said:
Complain? I'm not complaining. I'm just telling you like it is.

NOWHERE did I argue one side or the other, I just pointed out a few things to think about. :roll:

You're reading emotion into my post that isn't there.
Point taken:2wave:
 

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star2589 said:
I didnt say it was "fair", I just dont see any fair alternative, if abortion is kept legal.

neither the mother or the father can "opt out" after the child is born.

before the child is born, the mother is the only one capible of making any sort of decisions on its behalf. (or against its behalf). its an inherently unfair situation.
I agree, and until men can carry a baby to term themselves, that isn't likely to change.
 

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talloulou said:
Well in my mind they are linked. Why should a women get to decide their creation will cease to exist? If a man just gets to opt out of paying child support he still must deal with the fact that his offspring is out there in the world and he has abandoned his offspring! This abandoned offspring could very well show up at his door and start throwing accusations in his face. Women face no such threat when they opt out. When a women "opts out" the offspring is gone, killed, ceases to exist.
Lets say that a woman wants an abortion, the male does not. He should be able to go to court and let her have the child and he raise single parent.

The opposite applies as well.

Lets say that a woman wants to keep a child and the male wants an abortion. He should be able to take her to court to abort the child support burden.

Let the man have a choice.

This is *clearly* an equal rights issue.
 

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vauge said:
Lets say that a woman wants an abortion, the male does not. He should be able to go to court and let her have the child and he raise single parent.

The opposite applies as well.

Lets say that a woman wants to keep a child and the male wants an abortion. He should be able to take her to court to abort the child support burden.

Let the man have a choice.

This is *clearly* an equal rights issue.
You just pointed to a perfect example of law. This of course is not under the law of marriage, but of a new law that should be considered.

As vauge mentioned, you should require a man present at any child support hearing. There they can work through the facts, i.e was a lie told, were there circumstances that were beyond your control? The court should certainly not work in only one direction, it must flow for all concerned, as justice was intended.

This is what the law tells me, I would still spit on a man that used this to escape responsibility, but those are the downsides folks, but it must be as fair as humanely possible!
 
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