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Nope, if you want to keep your citizens safe you don't place them in the middle of a hostile territory and surround them with troops, you just occupy the locals and try to make sure they are not able to attack the citizens residing, legally, in your own country. The settlers are the Israeli human shields for land acquisition and the subsequent annexation attempts ( that nobody recognizes )and the building of the annexation wall further supports the case against the rubbish argument that it is a self defence venture.
Kfar Etzion , the first illegal settlement was built in 1967 and the programme to settle the Palestinian lands was given the go ahead before the dust of war had even settled. The plan was always to illegally settle the land and create a fake "peace process" that would serve as a subterfuge for it.
Of course they are, compare how many were killed and/or injured in just the March of Return protests which took place in their own territory. Then we have the regular " mowings of the lawn " attacks by Israel. Add to that the every week occurances of Palestinian dead in both the Gaza strip and West Bank.
Nobody claimed there is but you only condemn it when Palestinians do it and you defend it when Israeli IDF people do it. The word for such a position is hypocrisy
They aren't human shields they are settlers. Claiming that someone is a human shield because others will try to murder him if he chooses to live somewhere is absurd.
How many Palestinians were killed in the past year? 3? 4? "Killed in droves" seems like a very bad attempt at lying and propaganda.
What radical Islamists are supported by the West?
The reason Palestinian terrorists murder innocents is the same as other militant Islamist organizations.
They are not victims, they are just murderers.
The only ones who think murder is understandable are the ones who will eventually engage in murder themselves.
Whatever helps them to excute their terror attacks.They have become leeches sucking life and resources from the Palestinian people.
His comment shows what is Palestine and Palestinians, and how the arabs using the wording for their benefit. Even the partition plan says arab state, seems the Palestinian people term were created in 67’. I opened a thread about Palestinian history(making the assumption there is) and it seems it started at 67’ also.1936 predates 1947. His comment was obviously a reference to how the European colonial powers had carved up the Ottoman lands to suit themselves. But don't let taking his words out of context to support something he wouldn't have supported himself get in the way of a good story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_EtzionKfar Etzion , the first illegal settlement was built in 1967 and the programme to settle the Palestinian lands was given the go ahead before the dust of war had even settled. The plan was always to illegally settle the land and create a fake "peace process" that would serve as a subterfuge for it.
Migdal Eder
In January 1927, the Zikhron David society, a group of 160 Orthodox Jews from the Mea Shearim neighborhood of Jerusalem, established a small farming community, "Migdal Eder," on land south of Jerusalem.[5] The name was taken from a verse in the Bible, Genesis 35:21, which referenced a tower by the same name. During the 1929 Palestine riots, Migdal Eder was attacked and destroyed. Residents of the neighboring Palestinian village of Beit Ummar sheltered the farmers, but they could not return to their land.[6]
Old Kfar Etzion
In the early 1930s, the land was purchased by Haredi businessman Shmuel Zvi Holtzman from Rehovot,[7] who renamed the settlement "Kfar Etzion," a play on his own name: Yiddish “holts” and German "Holz" means “wood”, which translates to “etz” in Hebrew). The Jews were forced to leave again in the wake of the 1936–39 Arab revolt. Much of what Holtzman and his comrades had built was demolished by the Arabs.[6]
In 1943–47, the kibbutz movement sent out groups of settlers to establish four kibbutzim, creating what became known as the Etzion bloc. Kfar Etzion, Ein Tzurim, Massu'ot Yitzhak and Revadim were destroyed in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, and the entire area came under Jordanian rule.[6]
The kibbutzim held off the attacks for ten days until Kfar Etzion fell. In the Kfar Etzion massacre on 14 May, 157 Jewish inhabitants of the village were murdered, as all but four of the inhabitants were executed by Arab Legion and irregular forces. The other three kibbutzim surrendered. The inhabitants there were taken as prisoners of war and released nine months later.[8]
I do see people who cheers for Hamas and more than that and I think whoever can read between the lines can see who are those who constantly cheering for Hamas.Circumstances and events matter and those who wish to place all of the blame on Hamas are just showing their willingness to swallow, unquestioningly, pro Israel propaganda
Just before the advent of Hamas control of Gaza the Israeli disengagement finally ended years of de-development of the Gazan economy ( see Sarah Roys work ) and illegal settlement of the strip itself and all of the IDF repression that accompanied them. In short these two events were always going to send the strip into a decline it would likely never recover from.
The fact that the Palestinians of Gaza outed Fatah for gross corruption and repression in the 2006 elections says that when Hamas took power it was a popular event. That said around 80% of Palestinians , in exit poll questionaires, stated that they disagreed with Hamas' hard line stance on Israel.
Instead of respecting the democratic decision of the Palestinians of Gaza ( so much for the alleged champions of democracy ) and allowing the people and Hamas to sort themselves out, the plan was to oust Hamas and foist the PA/Fatah back onto the people of Gaza.
Hamas are and have been seeking a long term ceasefire with Israel in return for the lifting of the siege that is exacerbating an already dire situation. It is a classic case, imo , of giving someone a poisened chalice so as to create a false perspective. In this case that as soon as you give Palestinians any degree of independence, however restricted and hamstrung, they use it as a base to attack Israel, presumeably because they are some sort of subhumans who cannot/will not ever be able to run their own affairs. This is obviously just junk but people have no problem peddling it so as to ensure the mistreatment of Gazans and more broadly the Palestinian of the West Bank too continues.
I don't see anyone here " cheering for Hamas " but I do see people refusing to swallow the line that everything negative about the conflict and it's ongoing intractability is to be blamed on atrributed to Hamas. The reality is very different with others being just as, or even more, responsibe for the status quo.
And those genuinely concerned with HRs violations will be able to condemn Hamas ALONG WITH those other players whose actions/policies are equally as guilty, or more guilty in scale, of violations of their own, namely the other Palestinian factions, the state of Israel and all who aid and abet her in enabling her ongoing mass HR's violations of the Palestinian people.
His comment shows what is Palestine and Palestinians, and how the arabs using the wording for their benefit. Even the partition plan says arab state, seems the Palestinian people term were created in 67’. I opened a thread about Palestinian history(making the assumption there is) and it seems it started at 67’ also.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion
So group of Jews bought land which basically was sand and rocks until they developed it, then they were expelled from the land (3 times) and also got murdered and excucted by arabs. It put your words in different light right?
Your words are pure palestinian propaganda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehovot#cite_note-1913seedsofconflict-9At the time, all of Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire and the area that became Rehovot, like much of the land in Palestine then, had been settled by Arabs tending animals on land that had been exclusively at their disposition in an economic system where ownership of the land per se had not been a norm. This meant that the land purchase represented a disruption to the livelihoods and lifestyles of those who had viewed it as theirs for generations.[9]
I do see people who cheers for Hamas and more than that and I think whoever can read between the lines can see who are those who constantly cheering for Hamas.
Already discussed about it. You trying to paint it like the Palestinians people who chose Hamas were naïve, super naïve. Like they didn’t remember Hamas people bombing themselves in Israeli busses, restaurants and what not couple years before, like they didn’t remember the rockets and mortars they launched on citizens of Israel, like they didn’t know Hamas charter. They knew very well who are Hamas people and what they stand for and how they operate, who are you trying to fool? When you vote for terror organization you can’t act surprise when they commit terror attacks, nobody is that stupid.
It’s another bad decision, no surprise here, a little bit different from the ones from 48’, 2001, 2008. And I’m pretty sure many Gazans wishing that Israel will destroy Hamas so they can be free from them.
And of course when Hamas fires rockets Israel will defend itself like any other country.
They are human shields for a land annexation programme. You try to make out as though their presence is both legal and none invasive to the Palestinians. That's complete rubbish. They are, illegal colonizing settlers, residing illegally in someone elses land, that are protected by the army in a situation where the citizens of that state have their human rights mass violated all day,everyday.
If Mexicans started pouring over the borders of the US and ousting/harrasssing the locals so as to build their own exclusive towns under guard from the Mexican army who were killing US citizens on a weekly basis for protesting Americans would be up in arms as would Israelis if they were on the receiving end. Your defence of this shows, without a shadow of a doubt, that you are not intersted in justice or human rights, you just defend the crimes of your own under the guise of being concerned. It's a ruse, and a pretty obvious one at that.
Around 180 died in the March of return alone. Add to that the death tolls from Cast Lead, Summer Rains, Brothers Keeper, Protecive Edge, Pillar of defence, Autumn Clouds and then the every week deaths in Gaza and the West Bank, ongoing and the charge is a reasonable one. Compare that to the deaths of Israelis as a counter argument and it is an extremely valid argument.
I leave the lying and propaganda to those that rely on it.
Those that were fighting in Syria. Those that fought the Russians in Afghanistan. The head choppers of Saud are supported by the West too and are responisible for growing much of the Wahhabi fanaticism that has inspired many of those Islamist leaders and the groups that have formed as a result. The Iranians were fighting the Taliban when the Taliban were in the US trying out the, alleged, bribes offered from US oil companies.
Israel has been attacking those in Syria who have been fighting Islamist groups that have been terrorizing Syrians during the war
Nope, they are fighting a war of national liberation that begins and ends with the freeing up of the land they claim needs to be liberated. The other groups are international in scope, wishing to build a world wide caliphate. Completely different thing.
Yes they are victims, it's just an inconvenient truth for you. Zionism and the state it created, from the start, set out to displace and dispossess the Palestinians from Palestine. That's the initial aggression in the Israel/Palestine conflict from which all else stems
Both sides have and will engage in it. And, if we are being truthful, they have less means to do legitimate resistance than the IDF does self defence, even if the , alleged self defence, is actually defence of an attempted annexation of someone elses territory
They aren't fighting any "liberation war", they are committing murders of completely innocent people.
They aren't victims, they are committing murder.
And even in the imaginary world where Israel's existence was an act of aggression that justifies acts of war in return, you cannot just describe the murder of a little girl by the hands of an Islamist terrorist as justified "because of the initial aggression that was the creation of Israel".
And the terrorists Israel kills in Syria were terrorizing Syrians themselves more than anyone else. Who their enemies are is completely irrelevant in whether Israel has the right to kill them or not.
Every terrorist or anyone who would support murder is a legitimate target and should indeed be introduced to a bullet, it's ridiculous and a waste of time to suggest otherwise, there isn't some moral dilemma here.
They aren't fighting any "liberation war", they are committing murders of completely innocent people.
They aren't victims, they are committing murder.
And even in the imaginary world where Israel's existence was an act of aggression that justifies acts of war in return, you cannot just describe the murder of a little girl by the hands of an Islamist terrorist as justified "because of the initial aggression that was the creation of Israel".
The "liberation war" claim is to try to make terrorism more acceptable.... It is he same thing as declaring Jews to be "criminals" as justification for their murder...
Judaism is not just a religion, it also nation.The bulk of the leaders of the early Zionist movement were actually atheist Leftists who seen the political benefit of allowing Christian zionists to believe their movement had a religious driver. People, including Jewish people, often use stuff to propogate their plans.
His comment was definitely in the context of a resentment to the British /French carving up of the old Ottoman ME. You quote out of that context so as to try to present him as supporting your agenda. He would be spinning in his grave, but don't let quoting out of context get in the way of a propaganda opportunity, eh.
Who do you suppose authored the partition plan ? Clue, no Arabs.
Porath, Rashid Khalidi and others have argued that Palestinian nationalism predates the state of Israel. You see when European colonialistsn carve up the area for their own benefit, disregarding the affinities/geographical norms of the locals they can ONLY lag behind as events unfold.
All perfectly reasonable for people with open minds and more objective positions, you struggle for obvious reasons. imo
In other words they voted for terrorists.I never said they were naive at all, I said they voted against a corrupt and repressive Fatah.
False equivalence, Israel is democracy which being under a threat since its establishment. Hamas is terror organization, they executed their people in the streets and dragged their bodies all over the city. It's pretty clear and it speaks volume about the one who try argue this false equivalence.And the people/voters of Israel are also in the same/similar position. They can vote this way or that but the Israeli state terrorism against the Palestinians carries on regardless of whichever Israeli party/coalition is in power.
Wrong, the arabs chose war time and again. Hamas choosing terror even when he sees his people suffering, that’s what they do. Israel will defend itself like any other country.You are defending an annexation of the territories of other people and the illegal settlement of it. That shouldn't count as a legitimate self defence. Israel remains the aggressor and they have the right to defend themselves against that.
You people always put the cart before the horse for obvious reasons
They are fighting a war of liberation in a bid to both free themselves from military occupation/illegal settlement and to gain self determiination in a state of their own. They are the victims , long abused and constantly violated, of Zionism ans subsequently the state of Israel which has carried on the process of displacement and dispossession of the Palestinians.
Those are the facts of the matter
It's not an " imaginery world ", it is the reality of the situation when the propaganda is removed. There is no " justification " being offered for those acts nor are they justified if an IDF officer shoots a terrified Palestinian girl in the head 13 times, both are illegal and horrific acts that have no justification.
[qoute]
And the terrorists Israel kills in Syria were terrorizing Syrians themselves more than anyone else. Who their enemies are is completely irrelevant in whether Israel has the right to kill them or not.
Every terrorist or anyone who would support murder is a legitimate target and should indeed be introduced to a bullet, it's ridiculous and a waste of time to suggest otherwise, there isn't some moral dilemma here.
Goal post shift rejected. The Syrian army were fighting groups of radical islamists when the Israeli forces violated their sovereignty ( so much for acknowledging a countries right to self defence, your selective application of this is hysterically funny ) and assisted the radical Islamists , as did the US . The US assisted radical Islamists when they were fighting in Afghanistan. Saudi bankrolls wahhabi ideological groups that spawn these groups, the Taliban being one such group.
I get it. You have to defend Israel at all costs and at all times, even when they are aiding radical Islamists killing people in another country. Your positions compell you to regularly engage in such sommersaults because of their hypocritical construction, who knew?
My claim was very simple – you are using Palestinian propaganda. You said – “Kfar Etzion , the first illegal settlement was built in 1967 and the programme to settle the Palestinian lands was given the go ahead before the dust of war had even settled. The plan was always to illegally settle the land and create a fake "peace process" that would serve as a subterfuge for it.”Goal post shift number ? Your claim was that the Israeli state gave the Palestinians a chance in the aftermath of the 6 day war but the immediate building of illegal settlements kind of rubbishes that and confirms a wish to annexe parts of the territory.
But i will play the game a little longer.
It don't say the land the Jews bought were belong to palestinians arabs. Your claim was it palestinian arabs land, so to support it you simply need to show it their land.Some more on the history of Kfar Etzion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehovot#cite_note-1913seedsofconflict-9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehovot#British_Mandate
By the way, you forgot to mention that in the 1929 riot attck , it was other Palestinians that help save the lives of the Jewish people living there
You can see in the pictures, the land the jews bought in 1927 was sand and rocks. You trying to argue that every piece of land was belong to Palestinians arabs and that’s is just wrong. While the Jews bought lands and opened medical clinic that the arabs benefited from it also, they got expelled and mordered. Seems like the Israeli-palestinians conflict in a nutshell.Like many/most places where Jewish people now live, there once lived Arabs, and Arabs that had lived there consecutively for generation upon generation whilst the , alleged, Jewish owners where living in, Poland, estonia, Russia, Germany and had been for generation upon generation.
I leave the propaganda to those that rely on it
The US is a sovereign nation, the West Bank is a territory that was part of the Jewish homeland and that is not an annexed part of any state, the comparison is quite stupid.
And as I said trying to assert that human beings are human shields because someone says he'll murder them for living somewhere is absurd.
It's not a fact that murderers are victims it is an opinion.
It's also not a fact that the murder of an innocent little girl is "fighting a war of liberation" - it's again, an opinion.
You'd do better to avoid referring to your own radical pro-murder opinions as facts.
Judaism is not just a religion, it also nation.
So what was the context? Can you show his full testimony?
It shows how the Palestinian arabs manipulate the words Palestine and Palestinians. Anyway the History shows without any doubt who are the native people.
The Palestinians nationalism evolved from Jews and Israel. I think it's pretty clear.
My claim was very simple – you are using Palestinian propaganda. You said – “Kfar Etzion , the first illegal settlement was built in 1967 and the programme to settle the Palestinian lands was given the go ahead before the dust of war had even settled. The plan was always to illegally settle the land and create a fake "peace process" that would serve as a subterfuge for it.”
All Palestinians, even those in the diaspora, are the victims of Zionism when you break it down. So , yes, it is a fact.
It's a crime, I have said so. And , this is where we differ, because I see it as a crime wether a Palestinian does it of an Israeli Jew does it. You only see it when a Palestinian does it because you don't really care about it, it's just a propaganda opportunity to be used to defend the crimes of your own state
There is no " pro murder " opinion being held by me, I leave that to the likes of yourself who will support it if it is your own troops doing it and , wrongly, dupe people into believing it is a act of self defence . You have supported/defended the murders of many Palestinians innocents since I have been here so the above is just obvious projection
The West Bank has always been part of the territory/province of Palestine NOT the " Jewish homeland " and it's status now is Occupied Palestinian Territory ( occupied and illegally annexed in part by the state of Israel ). It's part of a palestinian state that is recognized by 2/3rds of the nations of the world and that number is rising. Occupation is occupation as far as the people being occupied and abused through that occupation is concerned, as genuine an occupation as any sovereign state.
The settlers are illegal human shields that are placed there for reasons of annexation. If that was not the case there is absolutely no other reason for them to be there , period.
And you said "being killed in droves". So again, how many Palestinians (not even civilians mind you, we'll play your game pretending terrorists are humans) have been killed in the past year? (That would be 2020)
You pick a year with fewer casualties than usual, and vastly fewer casualties than the year before . You ignore all the death tolls from the murderous IDF assualts on Gaza, in short you obviously don't want to admit the vastly higher numbers of Palestinian dead year in year out.
But even so, even one death of innocent civilians is one too many. You have yet to say anything about the number of kids being killed by Israeli state terrorist actions in occupied Palestine, the subject of this thread. 153 in 7 years, not worthy of a comment from you , someone who claims to be " with humanity ". It's a joke , just not a funny one.
Since 2013, according to the article in the OP, 153 Palestinian children have been killed with live ammunition. That's 153 in 7 years. In the period 2004-2014 , a 10 year period , 28 Israeli civilians, 5 foreign workers, 5 IDF soldiers and 11 Palestinians have been killed by rocket attacks from Gaza
The above show who is winning the propaganda war, when all's we read/see/hear is rocket attacks from Gaza but seldom the death toll ,just from live round murdering of Palestinian children, that dwarfs it by some margin
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