universal healthcare would save us trillions

[poweRob]

I hate alt-facts, which is what the OP is all about.

Bring some real facts and we can talk. The problem is that the real facts are concealed because they could puncture the balloon.

Gaslight away. It's what makes you so adorable.

 

[rickc]

Wow

We spend quite a bit more than any country in the world with universal healcare per capita and we don't even cover everyone.

For all we spend we don't have better health care outcomes.

Reality we have a shitty health care system but it makes a lot of people a lot of money.

How does health spending in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker

This chart collection examines how U.S. health spending compares to health spending in other similarly large, wealthy OECD countries using the OECD Health Statistics database.

www.healthsystemtracker.org

 

[Deuce]

My post #125 did just that... "Obviously, at least to me, they were just numbers you made up out of thin air. We need to start dealing with reality, so if you can substantiate your claims with some realistic numbers we might have something to discuss.
I don't know what U.S. healthcare spending was in the previous year, but compared to 2021 when health care spending was more than $12,000 per person, how much less per person would it be with a universal healthcare system?"
Carefully parse the above and it should be clear what I find lacking in your posts.

But how do you imagine someone would "support" the numbers for a hypothetical system? Can I just give you the per capita figures for some other country or would you reject those as not being applicable?

 

[Individual]

But how do you imagine someone would "support" the numbers for a hypothetical system? Can I just give you the per capita figures for some other country or would you reject those as not being applicable?

Okay, so U.S. healthcare spending in 2021 is known to have been a little over $12,000 per person. Hypothetically speaking, what might it become per person with universal healthcare?

Is the healthcare spending per person very close to the same amount in all countries that have universal healthcare?

 

[Deuce]

Okay, so U.S. healthcare spending in 2021 is known to have been a little over $12,000 per person. Hypothetically speaking, what might it become per person with universal healthcare?

Hypothetically $6000, as that seems to be about the average for first world nations.

Is the healthcare spending per person very close to the same amount in all countries that have universal healthcare?

There's a bit of variety but most first world nations fall into a similar range.

How does health spending in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker

This chart collection examines how U.S. health spending compares to health spending in other similarly large, wealthy OECD countries using the OECD Health Statistics database.

www.healthsystemtracker.org

Now for you to reject every example on the planet.

 

[Individual]

Hypothetically $6000, as that seems to be about the average for first world nations.

And now I would ask HOW universal healthcare might achieve such hypothetical cost per person reduction?

There's a bit of variety but most first world nations fall into a similar range.

How does health spending in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker

This chart collection examines how U.S. health spending compares to health spending in other similarly large, wealthy OECD countries using the OECD Health Statistics database.

www.healthsystemtracker.org

Yes, I've looked at that link before.

Now for you to reject every example on the planet.

You've not shown me every example on the planet, but all I reject is your extremely simplistic hypothesis, ignoring ALL the differing constants and variables that exist in producing the healthcare spending per person between countries.
A few variables you might want to look at might be drug costs, doctors salaries, malpractice insurance costs.
For universal healthcare to reduce the spending per person, assuming that such a program would provide coverage that the current system is not, would require massive cost reductions. How and where might they be accomplished?

 

[Deuce]

And now I would ask HOW universal healthcare might achieve such hypothetical cost per person reduction?


Yes, I've looked at that link before.


You've not shown me every example on the planet, but all I reject is your extremely simplistic hypothesis, ignoring ALL the differing constants and variables that exist in producing the healthcare spending per person between countries.
A few variables you might want to look at might be drug costs, doctors salaries, malpractice insurance costs.
For universal healthcare to reduce the spending per person, assuming that such a program would provide coverage that the current system is not, would require massive cost reductions. How and where might they be accomplished?

Are you rejecting the evidence that is every single UHC system on the planet because none of the countries are exactly like the United States? Because that just circles us back around to you establishing a standard that can't be met because it depends on some kind of hypothetical alternate reality, or time travel.

 

[Razoo]

Did I say that?



Everyone's taxes would increase by $4000?
With about 160,000,000 tax returns filed, that would result in about $640 billion.
In 2021 U.S. healthcare spending was more than $12,000 per person or about $4.3 trillion.

That's pretty much an issue. Perhaps something you learned, or were taught in Econ 101 solves that issue?

got a link ........?

"Can you present some factual evidence that universal healthcare would reduce the spending to less than the current more than $12,000 per person in the U.S.?" CAN YOU prove that it won't?

The difference is even at $12,000 a year EVERYONE WOULD HAVE FULL COVERAGE INSURANCE whereas most policies in the USA are UNDER-INSURED policies which sends some into bankruptcy. A large percentage
of bankruptcies are a result of healthcare. Medicare/Single Payer for ALL would end bankruptcies as a result of health care.

NO DEDUCTIBLES-NO COPAYS-ALL PRESCRIPTIONS PAID FOR.

AND there are a few million who have zero insurance.

AND females are charged way more than males for coverage.

 

[Razoo]

I sat on our local Single Payer for ALL group which traveled to different conferences. The group nationwide includes doctors, nurses, technicians and account administrators plus we the citizen activists.

 

[Individual]

Are you rejecting the evidence that is every single UHC system on the planet because none of the countries are exactly like the United States? Because that just circles us back around to you establishing a standard that can't be met because it depends on some kind of hypothetical alternate reality, or time travel.

You simply ignore my questions and respond with false accusations. All you have presented is figures related to actual per person spending on healthcare by other countries, which I have not rejected, but only asked for you to show HOW and WHERE universal healthcare would reduce the per person spending in the U.S.
Healthcare spending per person varies widely in the U.S. with D.C. and New York being the greatest, $14,381 and $14,007 per person and Idaho and Utah the least, $8,148 and $7,522 per person.
Some months ago I spent a week in the hospital, total cost under $500 paid out off pocket. Came close to losing my right foot, and had more needle holes than a heavy drug user when I left.
The fact is that many, if not most things in the U.S. cost much more than in other countries. So the question remains, why would you think universal healthcare would not also? On WHAT, HOW and WHERE would any cost reductions be acquired?

 

[Razoo]

You simply ignore my questions and respond with false accusations. All you have presented is figures related to actual per person spending on healthcare by other countries, which I have not rejected, but only asked for you to show HOW and WHERE universal healthcare would reduce the per person spending in the U.S.
Healthcare spending per person varies widely in the U.S. with D.C. and New York being the greatest, $14,381 and $14,007 per person and Idaho and Utah the least, $8,148 and $7,522 per person.
Some months ago I spent a week in the hospital, total cost under $500 paid out off pocket. Came close to losing my right foot, and had more needle holes than a heavy drug user when I left.
The fact is that many, if not most things in the U.S. cost much more than in other countries. So the question remains, why would you think universal healthcare would not also? On WHAT, HOW and WHERE would any cost reductions be acquired?

YOU are using Idaho and Utah as examples BUT do those costs represent full coverage or less than full coverage ?

 

[Individual]

got a link ........?

"Can you present some factual evidence that universal healthcare would reduce the spending to less than the current more than $12,000 per person in the U.S.?" CAN YOU prove that it won't?

The difference is even at $12,000 a year EVERYONE WOULD HAVE FULL COVERAGE INSURANCE whereas most policies in the USA are UNDER-INSURED policies which sends some into bankruptcy. A large percentage
of bankruptcies are a result of healthcare. Medicare/Single Payer for ALL would end bankruptcies as a result of health care.

NO DEDUCTIBLES-NO COPAYS-ALL PRESCRIPTIONS PAID FOR.

AND there are a few million who have zero insurance.

AND females are charged way more than males for coverage.

So HOW much would it cost? You appear to admit that it would have to cost more as a result providing it to a few million more AND greater spending on nearly everyone.
As I said before, resolve our system of taxation first and I might then be able to support it.

 

[Individual]

YOU are using Idaho and Utah as examples BUT do those costs represent full coverage or less than full coverage ?

Have no idea.

 

[Razoo]

So HOW much would it cost? You appear to admit that it would have to cost more as a result providing it to a few million more AND greater spending on nearly everyone.
As I said before, resolve our system of taxation first and I might then be able to support it.

I did not imply any such thing ......... I implied that it could remain the same cost HOWEVER everyone in America would have have full coverage insurance in which case would be a bargain. Instead of millions with less than full coverage and more millions with no coverage.

With Medicare Single Payer for All no one would receive invoices in the mail for a premium. Also the need for Medicare per se and Medicaid per se would be eliminated thus those dollars would be applied to Single Payer.

 

[PeteEU]

The three bold ones would drive demand through the stratosphere.

Not for the 2 first, because that demand is there already and those that cant afford to for fill that demand use the ER as a last resort and THAT treatment is expensive as hell.

 

[jcgriff2]

Universal healthcare would save money it costs more for the system that we got right now
so people complaining about how much america spends should be happy about a single payer system
it would save us alot.

Study: More Than 335,000 Lives Could Have Been Saved During Pandemic if U.S. Had Universal Health Care

If the U.S. had had a single-payer universal health care system in 2020, nearly 212,000 American lives would have been saved that year, according to a new study

ysph.yale.edu

FACT CHECK: Medicare for All Would Save the U.S. Trillions; Public Option Would Leave Millions Uninsured, Not Garner Savings - Public Citizen

Medicare for All opponents repeatedly claim that Medicare for All is “too expensive” by presenting misleading numbers without the proper…

www.citizen.org

https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/practices/new-study-says-medicare-for-all-will-save-u-s-money-lower-healthcare-costs

I don't know how the hell y'all can use 2020 for ANYTHING when it comes to healthcare considering Trillions of $$ were spent on COVID (and still are).

The American people are not as stupid as democrats think they are.

 

[Individual]

I did not imply any such thing ......... I implied that it could remain the same cost HOWEVER everyone in America would have have full coverage insurance in which case would be a bargain. Instead of millions with less than full coverage and more millions with no coverage.

With Medicare Single Payer for All no one would receive invoices in the mail for a premium. Also the need for Medicare per se and Medicaid per se would be eliminated thus those dollars would be applied to Single Payer.

Do you truly believe it could remain the same cost? I don't.

Giving millions of people something for nothing, or at less than cost, is insanity NOT a bargain.

Would the medicare tax portion of the payroll tax be eliminated?

 

[Jay59]

Gaslight away. It's what makes you so adorable.

Thank you.

You should really check out the film Gaslight. Probably unintentionally, you just said that I am smarter than you are. Cultural references can be strange that way.

 

[vegas giants]

Do you truly believe it could remain the same cost? I don't.

Giving millions of people something for nothing, or at less than cost, is insanity NOT a bargain.

Would the medicare tax portion of the payroll tax be eliminated?

It's not insanity and it's paid for by taxes....not nothing

 

[Jay59]

It's not insanity and it's paid for by taxes....not nothing

This from someone who complained about Trump raising the deficit.

You have nothing but a rigged study that gives a predetermined result. The history of government programs going far over budget is in unanimous disagreement.

You can start with the history of Medicare. Payroll taxes are only about 1/3 of the costs. This is a bit dated but it's the best graphic I could find.

 

[vegas giants]

This from someone who complained about Trump raising the deficit.

You have nothing but a rigged study that gives a predetermined result. The history of government programs going far over budget is in unanimous disagreement.

You can start with the history of Medicare. Payroll taxes are only about 1/3 of the costs. This is a bit dated but it's the best graphic I could find.

Money well spent. If your government can't help to keep you from dying then what is the point of government?

 

[BlueTex]

Lol, unfortunately my friend, it does not. Drastically increasing demand means drastic price increases over the already sky-high prices.

It also means catching diseases earlier when they are much, much cheaper to treat...

 

[Jay59]

Money well spent. If your government can't help to keep you from dying then what is the point of government?

 

[vegas giants]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[vegas giants]

It also means catching diseases earlier when they are much, much cheaper to treat...

The proof is in every country with single payer systems