UN warns Gaza 'will not liveable by 2020'

[ecofarm]

Iranians, Palestinians, makes no difference. The Palestinians have never shown any modicum of goodwill to the Israelis or to a genuine two state solution. Don't see why that would change if their patrons shiften to being China or the UK or Antarctica.

Payer gets to pick the guys in charge. I'm pretty sure Antarctica would not choose Hamas. And neither would Palestinians if Hamas had not provided their education.

 

[Wiseone]

ok. So Gaza is in no different a spot than anyone else outside of what, the EU? This contributes to the discussion how, exactly?

Is this just a symantic distraction or are you saying Israel should treat gaza like France treats Belgium?

Jesus dude do you even read.

An open border is one where there is no control on people or goods entering or existing, either by design or because the state doesn't have enough ability or willingness to control it. These are places like US states which people and goods move through freely, or places like the EU where people and goods can come and go.

A controlled border is a place where a national authority controls entry and exit of goods and persons, this type of border can exist at very degrees of control to fairly open to fairly closed for example US/Canada, US/Mexico, or Israel/Egypt/Gaza are controlled borders. Note that the US Canadian border is much more open than Egypt/Gaza/Israel however neither is completely closed nor completely open so they both fall into this category even though they are very different.

A closed border is a place like the DMZ between North and South Korea, where there no travel across whatsoever except on the very rare occasion where the two states agree to one time exceptions. No people or goods move across this border.

Do you understand now? Is that clear enough? The Israeli Gaza border is NOT an open border like those in the EU like the original post that started all this stupidness said, it is a controlled border that is extremely strict.

By the way I'm not arguing any position regarding Israeli's Gaza policy here, I'm just trying to teach you and Ido_ the meaning of the words you are using so you can pretend to understand what you're talking about a little more convincingly.

 

[Harshaw]

Gaza's rulers need to conclude peace with Israel and shift their focus to economic and social development. Currently, they are choosing to maintain low-level combat at the expense of economic and social outcome. The bear direct responsibility for their choice and the terrible opportunity cost they are imposing on Gaza's residents.

^^^^^
This.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

Consider some key measures of social well-being in the West Bank and Gaza under Israeli administration (as presented by University of London historian Efraim Karsh in his book “Arafat’s War,” pp. 44-45). Per capita GDP in the West Bank and Gaza rose tenfold between 1968 and 1991, surpassing the levels of Jordan, Egypt, Turkey and Tunisia. Mortality rates in the West Bank and Gaza fell by more than two-thirds between 1970 and 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 years in 1967 to 72 in 2000 (compared to an average of 68 years for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa).

Israeli medical aid reduced the infant mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (better than the rates for Iraq, Egypt, Jordan or Syria for the same time period). A systematic program of inoculation eradicated childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus and measles.

By 1986, 92.8 percent of the population of the West Bank and Gaza had electricity around the clock, compared with 20.5 percent in 1967; 85 percent had running water in dwellings, compared with 16 percent in 1967.

Equally dramatic was progress in education. In 1967, there was not a single university in the West Bank or Gaza. By the early 1990s, there were seven. From 1967 to 1987, the number of schoolchildren in the West Bank and Gaza had grown by 99 percent and the number of classes by 102 percent, though the population had grown by only 28 percent. Illiteracy rates had dropped to 14 percent of adults over the age of 15, compared with 69 percent in Morocco, 61 percent in Egypt, 45 percent in Tunisia and 44 percent in Syria.

Your Turn, NH: Life in Palestinian territories has greatly improved since ’67 | New Hampshire LOCALVOICES

And blockading Gaza, preventing trade, and occupying the West Bank have made commerce and the development of any civil society far more difficult. I'm not saying that Israel has made social progress impossible, but the current situation only hinders Palestine. There are many other factors in Palestine's current condition, like Arafat's corrupt and incompetent rule, but when it takes hours for Palestinians to cross through checkpoints, this is going to harm them economically.

They wouldn't be better because it isn't better elsewhere, and the Palestinians do not have anything more going for themselves, culturally or raw material-wise, than the Jordanians or the Egyptians or the Syrians.

The Arab Spring showed cultural relativism for what it is, hogwash.

Look less at the fact they would be "newly indepednent" and look at the political and social institutions that would come to be in a country staring from a tribalist supremacist Islamic base and see how that would game out. The Arab world sucks because of Arab culture. Not because of the occupation or imperialism or anything else.

Isarel, even with everything that has happened, caused the Palestinains to have a better set of economic, education and health outcomes than would have existed otherwise. And the Palestinians could have had independence more than a decade ago. That they launched a terrorist war where they gleefully targeted civilians and danced in the streets with every "successful" operation, and that their economy and society was destroyed as a result, is really no one's fault but their own.



Sure. Blow back. Which started well beofre occupation. They had a peace offer. They started a war. They lost. They refuse to discuss additional offers of independence.

So screw them.

Source? Doesn't seem to fit lots and lots of groups of people, and sure as hell doesn't seem to fit the Arab world's political realities very well.

What you are doing is imposing your own, and your own society's views and preferences on a foreign people, ignoring that they live with a very different midset and a very different reality. Your goals and interests are no more their goals and interests any more than they are the Ayatola Khomeni's.

So people are not interested in improving their own lives? Economic development in poor parts of the world have almost always trumped other concerns for most people.

Bull sh**. The best way to improve things for the Palestinians is to continue to press them until they cry uncle. Only once they give up their aim of destroying Israel, once and for all, can there be any hope of moving beyond this.

Oh, and if you say that can never work, it worked for the Japanese.

Defeating them in battle was only half of what we did. Nation-building involves a hell of a lot more than defeating armies conventionally. America's nation-building in Japan didn't involve making them cry uncle.

bull. What pisses them off the most is Israel's existence. And Israel has taken tons of risks for peace. The last time they tried this it ended up with more murdered Israelis than in the previous 20 years.

The Palestinians have shown absolutely no indication that they ever will be willing to play nice. Ball is in their court and has been for a very long time.

Your analysis would improve greatly if you were to see it.

For peace to occur, Palestine has to compromise a hell of a lot more than it has, but Israel playing nice will not hurt and will give Palestine fewer excuses to back out. I will agree that Israel's past offers have been very generous, and PA should have taken them. However, Israel is not going to bring them back to the negotiating table as long as the current situation persists.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Jesus dude do you even read.

An open border is one where there is no control on people or goods entering or existing, either by design or because the state doesn't have enough ability or willingness to control it. These are places like US states which people and goods move through freely, or places like the EU where people and goods can come and go.

A controlled border is a place where a national authority controls entry and exit of goods and persons, this type of border can exist at very degrees of control to fairly open to fairly closed for example US/Canada, US/Mexico, or Israel/Egypt/Gaza are controlled borders. Note that the US Canadian border is much more open than Egypt/Gaza/Israel however neither is completely closed nor completely open so they both fall into this category even though they are very different.

A closed border is a place like the DMZ between North and South Korea, where there no travel across whatsoever except on the very rare occasion where the two states agree to one time exceptions. No people or goods move across this border.

Do you understand now? Is that clear enough? The Israeli Gaza border is NOT an open border like those in the EU like the original post that started all this stupidness said, it is a controlled border that is extremely strict.

By the way I'm not arguing any position regarding Israeli's Gaza policy here, I'm just trying to teach you and Ido_ the meaning of the words you are using so you can pretend to understand what you're talking about a little more convincingly.

so symantics. noted.

 

[Wiseone]

so symantics. noted.

"Semantics" .And if the difference between the name of the type of border between North and South Korea and say France and Germany is semantics than you don't have the attention to detail required to talk about these kind of issues.

 

[CJ 2.0]

And blockading Gaza, preventing trade, and occupying the West Bank have made commerce and the development of any civil society far more difficult. I'm not saying that Israel has made social progress impossible, but the current situation only hinders Palestine. There are many other factors in Palestine's current condition, like Arafat's corrupt and incompetent rule, but when it takes hours for Palestinians to cross through checkpoints, this is going to harm them economically.

Yes. Occupation isn't great. Which should lead to a Palestinian recongition that maybe agreeing to a peace deal which would end it is perhaps better than, say, refusing to negotiate at all.

The Arab Spring showed cultural relativism for what it is, hogwash.

Did it now? Is that why 70% of Egyptians voted for Islamists who are now calling for the death penalty against blasphemers like the guy who did the crappy Internet video?

Arab people are as capable as any other people. But Arab culture is lousy, illiberal, and not really compatable with any sort of progress. Because the social dynamic is different. priorities are different. And perceptions of reality are different.

So people are not interested in improving their own lives? Economic development in poor parts of the world have almost always trumped other concerns for most people.

Sure they have. Except where they haven't.

Defeating them in battle was only half of what we did. Nation-building involves a hell of a lot more than defeating armies conventionally. America's nation-building in Japan didn't involve making them cry uncle.

yes it did. Then once that happened we helped them move on. But giving up omn their goal of dominating the Pacific was the first step, and the nation building that happened afterwards could never have happened without it.

For peace to occur, Palestine has to compromise a hell of a lot more than it has, but Israel playing nice will not hurt and will give Palestine fewer excuses to back out. I will agree that Israel's past offers have been very generous, and PA should have taken them. However, Israel is not going to bring them back to the negotiating table as long as the current situation persists.

Actually, Israel playing nice would be completely counter productive. Anything that lets the Palestinians and their leadership spin it like they are winning, like they can keep duping Israel and the west while they continue the fight, will only make any sort of actual peace recede further away.

And Israel shouldn't have to bring the Palestinians back to the negotiating table. The Palestinians blew up the table. It is up to them to bring the Israelis back, but only after the Palestinians relaize why they want to be there in the first place.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

Yes. Occupation isn't great. Which should lead to a Palestinian recongition that maybe agreeing to a peace deal which would end it is perhaps better than, say, refusing to negotiate at all.

Because that's been so convincing in the past 50 years.

Did it now? Is that why 70% of Egyptians voted for Islamists who are now calling for the death penalty against blasphemers like the guy who did the crappy Internet video?


Arab people are as capable as any other people. But Arab culture is lousy, illiberal, and not really compatable with any sort of progress. Because the social dynamic is different. priorities are different. And perceptions of reality are different.

And the building of a more pluralistic civil society will be far more difficult with current conditions.

Sure they have. Except where they haven't.

What evidence do you have that Palestine is different and that improved economic conditions won't persuade a significant number of people? Many cultures, thought to be hopelessly illiberal and parochial have been changed by economic growth: India, Japan, Latin America

yes it did. Then once that happened we helped them move on. But giving up omn their goal of dominating the Pacific was the first step, and the nation building that happened afterwards could never have happened without it.

We were facing a conventional army with a conventional objectives and a highly centralized command. Any anti-insurgency expert will tell you there is a big difference between WWII and irregular warfare.

Actually, Israel playing nice would be completely counter productive. Anything that lets the Palestinians and their leadership spin it like they are winning, like they can keep duping Israel and the west while they continue the fight, will only make any sort of actual peace recede further away.


And Israel shouldn't have to bring the Palestinians back to the negotiating table. The Palestinians blew up the table. It is up to them to bring the Israelis back, but only after the Palestinians relaize why they want to be there in the first place.

Then let Israel bomb Palestinian forces attacking Israel, but progress from the Palestinian side (which I agree has been too greedy at the negotiating table) will be impossible. The current situation has not helped, because there's not a whole lot else

 

[Fisher]

Syria has always been the keystone state to peace. There were some indications that Hafez al-Assad was incrementally moving in that direction but couldn't ever put both feet into the peace movement, in part, because of lingering internal issues related to Syria having been the least homogeneous of the post-Ottoman nations created. Perhaps its slow disintegration will at least create some room for movement among some factions that could be ready to embrace secular modernity with open arms if, for no other reason, than to get western support ($$$$) for them in the Syrian power struggle.

 

[ido_]

What evidence do you have that Palestine is different and that improved economic conditions won't persuade a significant number of people? Many cultures, thought to be hopelessly illiberal and parochial have been changed by economic growth: India, Japan, Latin America

How about the 2nd intifada as evidence?

When my brigade entered Beit-Lehem in 2002 (Shield Wall) we found that the Palestinians didn't have such bad quality of life. Apartments were all equipped with latest media technology - Plasma TVs, DVDs (hell my parents didn't have those at the time), BMWs and Mercedes parked in every corner, someone even afforded to throw a washing machine on us from the window. The economic status of the average Palestinian improved over the 90s due to the peace process and their autonomy yet they decided to turn from the peace process on a permanent agreement towards terror in 2000 and brought devastation upon themselves, whether if its in personal security, economy, freedom of movement etc.

 

[Sherman123]

Syria has always been the keystone state to peace. There were some indications that Hafez al-Assad was incrementally moving in that direction but couldn't ever put both feet into the peace movement, in part, because of lingering internal issues related to Syria having been the least homogeneous of the post-Ottoman nations created. Perhaps its slow disintegration will at least create some room for movement among some factions that could be ready to embrace secular modernity with open arms if, for no other reason, than to get western support ($$$$) for them in the Syrian power struggle.

Why do you say it is the keystone state to peace?

 

[Fisher]

Why do you say it is the keystone state to peace?

Among other things, it is the route through which Iranian activity (i.e. rockets) travel I have been told. I believe that it has the power to exert influence into Lebanon as well. While it may not be the key to peace with Iran, helping ratchet down turbulence immediately around Israel would make it harder for Israel to continue to justify its treatment of Arabs in the West bank, etc. I am of the opinion that Iran as a Persian state, not an Arab one, likes to keep things stirred up to prove itself a worthy Islamist nation to the real Arab nations. Prior to now, I would have unequivocally asserted Syria was the key. It may be a little more suspect with that state in flux, but I do believe there may be some opportunities worth exploring along those lines. Likewise, I am of the opinion that a great many in the region dislike the US only related to the Israeli issues and our failure to stop what has been going on, but otherwise would have no interest in antagonizing/attacking westerners.

The United States, on the other hand, is just going to have to deal with the reality that Arab democracies are not going to reflect the politics of western democracy, and give up the notion that things can be achieved overnight. It was been over 200 years since the US became a democracy and it has been a bloody path all along the way. Middle Eastern democracies are not going to magically manifest themselves in perfection in one four-year Presidential political cycle or even in one generation.

 

[Aberration]

Egypt could and can change the situation in Gaza. It would require nothing from Israel.

Why does Egypt hate the Palestinians so much?

 

[Fisher]

Egypt could and can change the situation in Gaza. It would require nothing from Israel.

Why does Egypt hate the Palestinians so much?

What is the basis for both parts of your assertions?

 

[Aberration]

What is the basis for both parts of your assertions?

Egypt borders Gaza.

 

[Fisher]

Isn't there some agreement by which Egyptian troops are supposed to stay off the Sinai Peninsula?

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

How about the 2nd intifada as evidence?

When my brigade entered Beit-Lehem in 2002 (Shield Wall) we found that the Palestinians didn't have such bad quality of life. Apartments were all equipped with latest media technology - Plasma TVs, DVDs (hell my parents didn't have those at the time), BMWs and Mercedes parked in every corner, someone even afforded to throw a washing machine on us from the window. The economic status of the average Palestinian improved over the 90s due to the peace process and their autonomy yet they decided to turn from the peace process on a permanent agreement towards terror in 2000 and brought devastation upon themselves, whether if its in personal security, economy, freedom of movement etc.

I never said that conditions have not improved or that economic progress, alone was sufficient to stop violence. People are always going to be pissed at Israel, especially as long as Palestine isn't independent, but in what situation do you see more Palestinians getting pissed and violent: where Palestine is independent and its citizens have no to blame for their problems besides their government or one where the Israeli government continues to rule over them. I'm not interested in what the PA does. As an average Palestinian, what would you rather see?

 

[ido_]

I never said that conditions have not improved or that economic progress, alone was sufficient to stop violence. People are always going to be pissed at Israel, especially as long as Palestine isn't independent, but in what situation do you see more Palestinians getting pissed and violent: where Palestine is independent and its citizens have no to blame for their problems besides their government or one where the Israeli government continues to rule over them. I'm not interested in what the PA does. As an average Palestinian, what would you rather see?

As an average Palestinian I think I'd want keep the "resistance" until we'll have Jaffa and Haifa back under our control and the fact that peace time will give me prosperity won't change anything in this desire. Maybe my kids, if they won't be indoctrinated to hate Jews just like I was, will start developing the land they already have instead of dreaming about the land they will never have.

 

[ecofarm]

in what situation do you see more Palestinians getting pissed and violent: where Palestine is independent and its citizens have no to blame for their problems besides their government or one where the Israeli government continues to rule over them.

Hamas is the problem, not Israel. Their "government" is the one to blame. What makes you think more will see it later?

 

[ecofarm]

Isn't there some agreement by which Egyptian troops are supposed to stay off the Sinai Peninsula?

Why should dealing with Gaza require Egyptian troops.

 

[Fisher]

Why should dealing with Gaza require Egyptian troops.

I suppose it would not necessarily require it, but I am not not sure what kind of help one imagines is being discussed. Egypt is working on improving electrification and easing passports restrictions. I don't know if it would be better or worse politically to have Gaza become increasingly aligned with Egypt and less aligned politically with the remaining West Bank.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

As an average Palestinian I think I'd want keep the "resistance" until we'll have Jaffa and Haifa back under our control and the fact that peace time will give me prosperity won't change anything in this desire. Maybe my kids, if they won't be indoctrinated to hate Jews just like I was, will start developing the land they already have instead of dreaming about the land they will never have.

That does not answer my question.

Hamas is the problem, not Israel. Their "government" is the one to blame. What makes you think more will see it later?

Both are continuing stupid policies that only serve to piss people off.

 

[ido_]

That does not answer my question.

Because your question was flawed at the first place.
Of course that as a Palestinian I'd rather have my own state but this means nothing about my desire to get my hands on the rest of the land which is today Israel. Getting my own state is just the first milestone in my vicious plan.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

Because your question was flawed at the first place.
Of course that as a Palestinian I'd rather have my own state but this means nothing about my desire to get my hands on the rest of the land which is today Israel. Getting my own state is just the first milestone in my vicious plan.

And Palestine has absolutely no chance of doing this if they had their own state. Not everyone will stop trying to destroy Israel, but some will. Any progress is impossible as long as the current situation persists. There is a lot that Palestine has to change for peace to take place, but you cannot completely ignore Israel's role.

 

[ido_]

And Palestine has absolutely no chance of doing this if they had their own state. Not everyone will stop trying to destroy Israel, but some will. Any progress is impossible as long as the current situation persists. There is a lot that Palestine has to change for peace to take place, but you cannot completely ignore Israel's role.

Of course Israel's role is affecting the situation but not as much as the Palestinian indoctrination, if it was only Israel's role there was no 2nd intifada because as you said people don't risk economical security by entering a violent conflict