UN report findings indicate Assad gassed Damascus

[Baltim]

Apparently, Russia have claimed the missiles used were made by them but never sold to Syria. They were, however, sold to Libya, Yemen and Egypt. Assad's regime are saying this proves that the rebels must have used them as they were most likely brought in from Libya.

Gas missiles 'were not sold to Syria' - Comment - Voices - The Independent

While the Assad regime in Damascus has denied responsibility for the sarin gas missiles that killed around 1,400 Syrians in the suburb of Ghouta on 21 August, information is now circulating in the city that Russia's new "evidence" about the attack includes the dates of export of the specific rockets used and – more importantly – the countries to which they were originally sold. They were apparently manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1967 and sold by Moscow to three Arab countries, Yemen, Egypt and Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's Libya. These details cannot be verified in documents, and Vladimir Putin has not revealed the reasons why he told Barack Obama that he knows Assad's army did not fire the sarin missiles; but if the information is correct – and it is believed to have come from Moscow – Russia did not sell this particular batch of chemical munitions to Syria.

Since Gaddafi's fall in 2011, vast quantities of his abandoned Soviet-made arms have fallen into the hands of rebel groups and al-Qa'ida-affiliated insurgents. Many were later found in Mali, some in Algeria and a vast amount in Sinai. The Syrians have long claimed that a substantial amount of Soviet-made weaponry has made its way from Libya into the hands of rebels in the country's civil war with the help of Qatar – which supported the Libyan rebels against Gaddafi and now pays for arms shipments to Syrian insurgents.

The whole article is worth a read and rightly points out later that, whether Assad used CWs or not, proven war crimes have been committed by both sides.

 

[MadLib]

Apparently, Russia have claimed the missiles used were made by them but never sold to Syria. They were, however, sold to Libya, Yemen and Egypt. Assad's regime are saying this proves that the rebels must have used them as they were most likely brought in from Libya.



The whole article is worth a read and rightly points out later that, whether Assad used CWs or not, proven war crimes have been committed by both sides.

Let's not pretend that both sides are equivalent. The ratio of government massacres to rebel massacres is 8:1, almost as disproportionate as the ratio of Serb war crimes to the war crimes committed by the Croats and Bosniaks. Additionally, the rebels, unlike the Assad regime, are not unified and so the entire movement cannot be judged by the actions of a few factions or deviant brigades.

 

[reinoe]

The ratio of government massacres to rebel massacres is 8:1,

Do you have a link or is this another example of "John Kerry said so"?

 

[ecofarm]

Do you have a link or is this another example of "John Kerry said so"?

It's the UN report regarding documented massacres.

 

[Fallenangel]

I know munitions. Much like tank shells and Hellfire missiles, you need the proper warhead to achieve the desired effect.

Good for you, now can you please answer what I asked you.
Where did you see (who told you) that the rocket with the CW is called MS-14, just curious?

I have never read a report or seen a video of the rebels using 140mm rockets.

Neither did I, the debate started a surrounded about the abilities, training, etc...of the "rebels" to use these types of weapons i.e heavy rockets and their launchers.

You are neglecting to consider something. What you imagine is a typical ground-to-ground event. However, if we place the launchers on the heights of Mount Qasioun, it is more akin to a air-to-ground missile. The parabolic trajectory is enhanced which increases maximum range.

Absolutely true.
However, as you made the claim and now after we established that you know munitions, it wouldn't be a problem for you to provide a quick calculation and to show that the elevation of Mt. Qasioun above the area of al-Moadamyeh was indeed enough to allow the projectiles reach the area without struggling to do so.

Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[DDD]

I think Obama's "red line" and the threat that it was going to bomb pushed forward with the diplomatic negotiations. This way Assad will now that should diplomacy fail what may potentially follow.

Syrian FM: Syria will sign chemical ban, open storage sites

Of course he may also think that he can make a big mess out of the negotiations since Russia is with them. Would be risky for him to do that, but he might.

 

[gunner]

Sorry, I will suppport them over Assad but I will not support Syria becoming an Islamist state. We want a transitional democratic government with human rights in the law.

A pity those inside Syria doing the fighting are not sharing your opinion:

"Eleven Islamist rebel groups in Syria have announced they do not recognise the authority of the main opposition alliance, the National Coalition.

A joint statement says: "All groups formed abroad without having returned to the country do not represent us."

They also call for the opposition to unite under an "Islamic framework".

More worrying:

Islamist rebel forces have become increasing prominent in the conflict in Syria, and they are believed to command tens of thousands of fighters

BBC News - Islamist rebels in Syria reject National Coalition

Pretty much blows out of the water the view that the Islamists, amount to very few in numbers.

Paul

 

[ecofarm]

A pity those inside Syria doing the fighting are not sharing your opinion:

"Eleven Islamist rebel groups in Syria have announced they do not recognise the authority of the main opposition alliance, the National Coalition.

A joint statement says: "All groups formed abroad without having returned to the country do not represent us."

They also call for the opposition to unite under an "Islamic framework".

More worrying:

Islamist rebel forces have become increasing prominent in the conflict in Syria, and they are believed to command tens of thousands of fighters

BBC News - Islamist rebels in Syria reject National Coalition

Pretty much blows out of the water the view that the Islamists, amount to very few in numbers.

Paul

That's old news. Not all of the rebels are welcomed by the SNC. The SNC rejects Islamist extremists and terrorists. If you look earlier in this thread (iirc), you will find my citation from wiki regarding this extremist group's association with FSA but not SNC.

10k extremists does not constitute a majority of 100k fighters and millions of supporters.


ps. It's not just me, personally, making the claim, it's the US Secretary of State and a private company (IHS Jane).

 

[gunner]

That's old news. Not all of the rebels are welcomed by the SNC. The SNC rejects Islamist extremists and terrorists. If you look earlier in this thread (iirc), you will find my citation from wiki regarding this extremist group's association with FSA but not SNC.

10k extremists does not constitute a majority of 100k fighters and millions of supporters.


ps. It's not just me, personally, making the claim, it's the US Secretary of State and a private company (IHS Jane).

Well, the statement (according to the article) was read out on Tuesday, that's recent to me.

Paul

 

[ecofarm]

Well, the statement (according to the article) was read out on Tuesday, that's recent to me.

Paul

The SNC has rejected all Islamist extremists for years. It's not like the extremists are rejecting the SNC, that's propaganda. They are not welcome in the SNC, they never have been.

This post, from this thread (Sept. 18) explains:

Ahrar ash-Sham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That's your source. I'm sure they have a few nice missiles, and they've exaggerated resources. There is no known physical evidence that rebels have used or could use 120mm rockets.

Look at the quote from wiki and realize that your claim of them rejecting the SNC is propaganda. They were never welcome. It's basically the same as AlQ declaring "we will not take a seat in the US congress!" as if it was their choice.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Where did you see (who told you) that the rocket with the CW is called MS-14, just curious?

The rocket (propellant aspect) is not called MS-14, the chemical warhead is. Look at it this way. You will get different results with a Hellfire depending on which warhead you use (AGM-114K/AGM-114KII/AGM-114M/AGM-114N). Although the motor portion of the various AGM's are identical, you have to use the correct warhead to obtain a desired result.

However, as you made the claim and now after we established that you know munitions, it wouldn't be a problem for you to provide a quick calculation and to show that the elevation of Mt. Qasioun above the area of al-Moadamyeh was indeed enough to allow the projectiles reach the area without struggling to do so.

To do so, I would have to be on site with the proper equipment and relevant meteorological data. Suffice it to say that every professional artillery battery strives to operate from a high ground. One of the purposes in this methodology is range enhancement.

 

[Fallenangel]

The rocket (propellant aspect) is not called MS-14, the chemical warhead is.

And again... no answer to my question, I"ll write it in bold with colors, maybe then you'd be able to see it better -
Where did you see (who told you) that the rocket (or even the war head itself) with the CW is called MS-14, just curious?

Look at it this way. You will get different results with a Hellfire depending on which warhead you use (AGM-114K/AGM-114KII/AGM-114M/AGM-114N). Although the motor portion of the various AGM's are identical, you have to use the correct warhead to obtain a desired result.

True, yet has absolutely no relevance to what I've been asking you for the past several posts now.

To do so, I would have to be on site with the proper equipment and relevant meteorological data.
Suffice it to say that every professional artillery battery strives to operate from a high ground. One of the purposes in this methodology is range enhancement.

Again, mostly true, yet has absolutely no relevance to what we've been discussing so far i.e YOUR claim that the rockets were indeed fired from Mt. Qasioun.
As YOU made the claim, YOU have to provide a proof for that claim, and so far you failed to do so.

Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[ecofarm]

And again... no answer to my question, I"ll write it in bold with colors, maybe then you'd be able to see it better -
Where did you see (who told you) that the rocket (or even the war head itself) with the CW is called MS-14, just curious?

The BM-14 (BM for Boyevaya Mashina, 'combat vehicle'), is a Soviet-made 140mm multiple rocket launcher, fielded by the Soviet Union. The BM-14 can fire rockets fitted with chemical (MS-14), smoke (M-14D) or high-explosive fragmentation (M-14-OF) warheads. It is similar to the BM-13 "Katyusha" and was partly replaced in service by the 122 mm BM-21 Grad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-14

Again, mostly true, yet has absolutely no relevance to what we've been discussing so far i.e YOUR claim that the rockets were indeed fired from Mt. Qasioun.
As YOU made the claim, YOU have to provide a proof for that claim, and so far you failed to do so.

UN investigation trajectories indicate such, and the US claims to have satellite photos showing several launches from that area ~30 minutes before reports of chems in the streets.

 

[ecofarm]

However, as you made the claim and now after we established that you know munitions, it wouldn't be a problem for you to provide a quick calculation and to show that the elevation of Mt. Qasioun above the area of al-Moadamyeh was indeed enough to allow the projectiles reach the area without struggling to do so.

Who cares if the rocket struggles, it's not precision ordinance. Getting it into the neighborhood was sufficient. Launching at max range and seeing how far it can go seems to be the obvious procedure to employ.

 

[Fallenangel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-14

Ah yes, Wiki, very nice - the problem with that article in English, that it doesn't provide the sources for the MS-14 name, and I never heard/seen it being called like that.

You see these letters stand for certain things in Russian;
M-14 D = Dymovoy (in Russian) meaning Smoke.
M-14 OF = Oskolochno Fugasniy (in Russian) meaning Shrapnel Explosive
MS-14 = ? = I don't know, thus I've been asking our friend here, where did he saw the rocket/warhead being called MS-14.
I am really interested to know what it stands for, and why it is being called like that - because so far in Russian sources it is being referred simply as, M-14 chemical.

UN investigation trajectories indicate such, and the US claims to have satellite photos showing several launches from that area ~30 minutes before reports of chems in the streets.

His claim was that these rockets came specifically from the military base on Mt. Qasioun, that is what I am asking him to prove, that's all.

Who cares if the rocket struggles, it's not precision ordinance. Getting it into the neighborhood was sufficient. Launching at max range and seeing how far it can go seems to be the obvious procedure to employ.

Not really, if the rockets would struggle reaching their destination or would risk not reaching it at all, normally they would not be launched, especially when one deals with old uncontrollable rockets such as M-14. It would be much wiser to move them closer, for instance if they were launched by the Syrian army, they could have been launched from the outskirts of the Brigade base near Mt. Qasioun, as was suggested in the HRW map.
Simpleχity claimed HRW was wrong, and according to him they where launched from Mt. Qasioun - I am asking him to prove it.


Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[ecofarm]

His claim was that these rockets came specifically from the military base on Mt. Qasioun, that is what I am asking him to prove, that's all.

What part of this do you not understand?

The trajectories established by the UN investigation prove this, and the US claims to have satellite photos of launches from that location just prior to chems hitting the streets.

Not really, if the rockets would struggle reaching their destination or would risk not reaching it at all, normally they would not be launched, especially when one deals with old uncontrollable rockets such as M-14.

Who cares if they do not reach their "destination"? As long as they land in the neighborhood, they're good. That's the point of chems, they kill on a wide scale. If they fall a bit short - it does not matter. Therefore, they could be set to max range and off they go.

It would be much wiser to move them closer, for instance if they were launched by the Syrian army, they could have been launched from the outskirts of the Brigade base near Mt. Qasioun, as was suggested in the HRW map.

The base is basically on Mt. Q. You're saying the rockets could not have been launched from the southern slope?

Simpleχity claimed HRW was wrong, and according to him they where launched from Mt. Qasioun - I am asking him to prove it.

The HRW map shows that (at least) two rockets were launched from within the base on Mt. Q.

 

[Fallenangel]

What part of this do you not understand?
The trajectories established by the UN investigation prove this, and the US claims to have satellite photos of launches from that location just prior to chems hitting the streets.

As far as I remember, the report indicated only a general azimuth, HIS claim was that these rockets came specifically from the military base on Mt. Qasioun, HE needs to prove it.
Btw, have your congressman showed you those photos you keep constantly mentioning? :2razz:

Who cares if they do not reach their "destination"? As long as they land in the neighborhood, they're good. That's the point of chems, they kill on a wide scale. If they fall a bit short - it does not matter. Therefore, they could be set to max range and off they go.

Everything is possible, however professional people that launch rockets, normally do not launch them in the way you try to describe it.

The base is basically on Mt. Q. You're saying the rockets could not have been launched from the southern slope?

There is a base directly on Mt. Qasioun, Simpleχity claimed that the rockets were launched from there - regarding slopes, etc. see my previous posts regarding the outskirts of the Brigade base.

The HRW map shows that (at least) two rockets were launched from within the base on Mt. Q.

The HRW map shows they were launched from the Brigade base that is situated nearer to al-Moadamyeh, Simpleχity claimed the map was wrong, and again, I asked him to prove his claim.

Cheers,
Fallen.